NFPA's Creation of Security Standards/Codes

[Norm Mugford]

Yes; Al, you can quote me if you like.

When you have the chance, Call me at my office.
I have some interesting info on third party certification
that you might be interested in.
386-445-7936

Norm Mugford

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Excluding fire...

This is all fine and dandy in theory however;

Many many homes we do security for, we never even see a blue print, and if we do it's 10 minutes before we are running wire. Security guys are the low man on the totem pole, we are the last to be granted the bid, the last to have contracts signed, the last be called when something needs to be done, the last to get paid.

Something like this will kill anyone working for residential tract-home builders. Submit plans, pull a permit for every home, submit for inspections (and have to be there?)...this will absolutely kill reasonalbly priced alarm installations. And, what about pre-wired-only homes?...the prewire alarmco is gonna pay for plans, permits on a job that he probably will never finish the trim-out on? I don't do tracts or prewires anymore (thank god), but I know the drill. This would easily double the price of systems.

 

[Jim]

Excluding fire...

This is all fine and dandy in theory however;

Many many homes we do security for, we never even see a blue print,

and if we do it's 10 minutes before we are running wire. Security guys
are the low man on the totem pole, we are the last to be granted the
bid, the last to have contracts signed, the last be called when
something needs to be done, the last to get paid.

Something like this will kill anyone working for residential

tract-home builders. Submit plans, pull a permit for every home, submit
for inspections (and have to be there?)...this will absolutely kill
reasonalbly priced alarm installations. And, what about pre-wired-only
homes?...the prewire alarmco is gonna pay for plans, permits on a job
that he probably will never finish the trim-out on? I don't do tracts
or prewires anymore (thank god), but I know the drill. This would
easily double the price of systems.But Crash ............. that's exactly the idea! There's been a long
... but very deliberate crusade by the electrical industry, and larger
alarm companys, to oust the small alarm dealers. Take a look at who
does much of the fire installations. Take a look at who sits on the
boards of NFPA. Take a look at who does the lobbying for political
decisions. The Unions are no longer as strong as they used to be, but
they still have their foothold in the bureaucratic and political areas
where the big money is. Do you see much municipal work being done by
non union companies? How about the big fire alarm systems? Ever see a
non union alarm company doing them? Why do you think ADT gets many of
the big jobs? Not simply because it's the biggest alarm company but
because it's also got it's commercial branches unionized. In my area,
most smaller electricians are not union affiliated, but if you want the
bigger jobs, you'd better be unionized. The citys, towns, municipal
contractors and developers know better than to hire a contractor not in
the union, because they know they'll be picketed or work will be
delayed while unions (legally) hold up work, trying to pamphlet the non
union workers to "organize" on the job.

They ..... just ...... want ..... the ..... MONEY!

They want it to be .... that if anyone wants an alarm system .......
only the BIG companys get it. If the little users get knocked aside
because of code requirements that only apply to large jobs ...... they
don't care. they're only interested in those that CAN afford it and
that it will be under the requirements that will insure that only the
big AND/OR affiliated installation companies will get the jobs. They're
not concerned in the least with the little users or the little
tradesmen.


Other than the obvious advantages to NFPA ...another item to speculate
about is ...... UL has been gradually eliminated from the installation
side of the alarm industry over the years. How much interest would THEY
have in seeing standards/codes instituted that would require their
"services"? As such, what influences could they be having on this
event? I don't know what their affiliations are, but they surely are
much more involved with the electrial industry than with the alarm
industry.

I wouldn't consider all of this an actual "conspiracy", but certainly
....... and at the least, a long range goal or leaning of these other
trades and organizations, all with a mutually advantageous target.

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Welp, we don't have but a handful of unions out here...but yah you're probably right. I KNOW the residential builders won't go for higher prices..so homes will not be available with systems already installed. Time to stock up on wireless.

Excluding fire...

This is all fine and dandy in theory however;

Many many homes we do security for, we never even see a blue print,

and if we do it's 10 minutes before we are running wire. Security guys
are the low man on the totem pole, we are the last to be granted the
bid, the last to have contracts signed, the last be called when
something needs to be done, the last to get paid.

Something like this will kill anyone working for residential

tract-home builders. Submit plans, pull a permit for every home, submit
for inspections (and have to be there?)...this will absolutely kill
reasonalbly priced alarm installations. And, what about pre-wired-only
homes?...the prewire alarmco is gonna pay for plans, permits on a job
that he probably will never finish the trim-out on? I don't do tracts
or prewires anymore (thank god), but I know the drill. This would
easily double the price of systems.But Crash ............. that's exactly the idea! There's been a long
... but very deliberate crusade by the electrical industry, and larger
alarm companys, to oust the small alarm dealers. Take a look at who
does much of the fire installations. Take a look at who sits on the
boards of NFPA. Take a look at who does the lobbying for political
decisions. The Unions are no longer as strong as they used to be, but
they still have their foothold in the bureaucratic and political areas
where the big money is. Do you see much municipal work being done by
non union companies? How about the big fire alarm systems? Ever see a
non union alarm company doing them? Why do you think ADT gets many of
the big jobs? Not simply because it's the biggest alarm company but
because it's also got it's commercial branches unionized. In my area,
most smaller electricians are not union affiliated, but if you want the
bigger jobs, you'd better be unionized. The citys, towns, municipal
contractors and developers know better than to hire a contractor not in
the union, because they know they'll be picketed or work will be
delayed while unions (legally) hold up work, trying to pamphlet the non
union workers to "organize" on the job.

They ..... just ...... want ..... the ..... MONEY!

They want it to be .... that if anyone wants an alarm system .......
only the BIG companys get it. If the little users get knocked aside
because of code requirements that only apply to large jobs ...... they
don't care. they're only interested in those that CAN afford it and
that it will be under the requirements that will insure that only the
big AND/OR affiliated installation companies will get the jobs. They're
not concerned in the least with the little users or the little
tradesmen.


Other than the obvious advantages to NFPA ...another item to speculate
about is ...... UL has been gradually eliminated from the installation
side of the alarm industry over the years. How much interest would THEY
have in seeing standards/codes instituted that would require their
"services"? As such, what influences could they be having on this
event? I don't know what their affiliations are, but they surely are
much more involved with the electrial industry than with the alarm
industry.

I wouldn't consider all of this an actual "conspiracy", but certainly
....... and at the least, a long range goal or leaning of these other
trades and organizations, all with a mutually advantageous target.

 

[Jim]

Welp, we don't have but a handful of unions out here...but yah you're probably right. I KNOW the residential builders won't go for higher prices..sohomes will not be available with systems already installed. Time to stock up on wireless.

I'll bet that the companys with trade unions that you DO have, are the
companys that get the majority of the municipal, city town and state
contracts though.

If a federal or state funded job has to be done in the area and there
aren't any union companys there, they're farmed in from another area
and even from other states. Check it out. Unions are subdued nowadays,
but they're still in bed with the politcians. They've still got the
block voting power and funding the politicos love.

 

[Bob Worthy]

Welp, we don't have but a handful of unions out here...but yah you're

probably right. I KNOW the residential builders won't go for higher
prices..so homes will not be available with systems already installed.

The fast track builders can go suck hide tit. They are whores that won't and
don't pay anyway. Who needs them. They are nothing but grief and aggrevation
and have put more than one good company out of business. The best move I
ever made was to stop dealing with these type of builders and they wonder
why I wouldn't take their calls, anymore. "Whats da madder, ya don't want my
business?" Yup, that's right, loose my number. I got tired of getting beat
up on every bid and then waiting and waiting and waiting for payment.
Jumping through hoops for their superintendents because of their piss poor
scheduling and then hearing that I am holding them up. They have absolutely
no professionalism, using the same language on the phone with the women in
our office as they do out in the field. I often wondered where they find
these dregs. They are like hound dogs, you let them in your house and they
piss on your coffee table. What is funny is that they are like little kids,
they want what they can't have. They still keep calling. "Hey dawg, I have
another project comin' out of the ground." GO AWAY! On the other hand, I do
have some very good custom builders that are 180 degrees in the other
direction. Very professional, organized, great to deal with, and pay. I
would have to do numerous fast track houses to equal one custom as far as
value per house.

I'll bet that the companys with trade unions that you DO have, are the
companys that get the majority of the municipal, city town and state
contracts though.

If a federal or state funded job has to be done in the area and there
aren't any union companys there, they're farmed in from another area
and even from other states.

Sometimes but usually licensing laws will prohibit it. What I have
experienced however, on the prison work we have done, is that we go through
a wage audit to make sure we are paying prevailing wage.

Check it out. Unions are subdued nowadays,
but they're still in bed with the politcians. They've still got the
block voting power and funding the politicos love.

True, NECA (National Electrical Contractors Association), which is the union
group, is alive and well and have paid lobbyist anywhere they are trying to
gain a foothold on any issue they have interest in. Deal with them all the
time in Tallahassee, FL. during legislative session. Some times with them
and sometimes against them, depending on the issue. They know how to play
the game...........grease, grease, grease those palms.

Bob4Secur

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Yep..and that's why I only do customs now..quit tracts 10 years ago. They did give me a nice customer base though.

 

[Crash Gordon®]

There aren't any union alarm co's here.

There are only a few union electrical contractors, and they do get a lot of big jobs, but they certainly don't have a lock on big stuff.

Welp, we don't have but a handful of unions out here...but yah you're probably right. I KNOW the residential builders won't go for higher prices..so homes will not be available with systems already installed. Time to stock up on wireless.

I'll bet that the companys with trade unions that you DO have, are the
companys that get the majority of the municipal, city town and state
contracts though.

If a federal or state funded job has to be done in the area and there
aren't any union companys there, they're farmed in from another area
and even from other states. Check it out. Unions are subdued nowadays,
but they're still in bed with the politcians. They've still got the
block voting power and funding the politicos love.

 

[Bob Worthy]

There aren't any union alarm co's here.

There are only a few union electrical contractors, and they do get a lot of
big jobs, but they certainly don't have a lock on big stuff.

The IBEW is weak throughout the southern sun belt. Try San Fran, St. Louie,
Chicago, Detroit, Philly, New York and Joysie. They will walk in a heart
beat if a non union shop is anywhere near their jobs.

Welp, we don't have but a handful of unions out here...but yah you're

probably right. I KNOW the residential builders won't go for higher
prices..so homes will not be available with systems already installed. Time
to stock up on wireless.


I'll bet that the companys with trade unions that you DO have, are the
companys that get the majority of the municipal, city town and state
contracts though.

If a federal or state funded job has to be done in the area and there
aren't any union companys there, they're farmed in from another area
and even from other states. Check it out. Unions are subdued nowadays,
but they're still in bed with the politcians. They've still got the
block voting power and funding the politicos love.

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Yep..I know NY & Joisey. My dad's IBEW union card was #25.

 

[[email protected]]

Crash, the NFPA 731 only pertains to commercial, industrial, and
institutional. It does not apply to one- and two-family dwellings.
Even still, Bob Worthy brought up a good point that really does make
this entire document seem questionable. Open access to blueprints and
other documents, if true, will make this an especially dangerous
document as criminals will have ready access to the "what" and "where"
of detection.

With that said, there are already municipalities who require blueprints
of security devices along with fire, public address, and other
low-voltage systems. This is, of course, the opposite of good security
where blueprints and other submission documents are made available to
members of the public.

I will be investigating this issue on a local basis via several
municipal and county building departments. If I can get in to view a
project that I had nothing to do with, then you know this is a really
dangerous issue. I'll be sure to update everyone when I have more
information. If anyone else has any experience in this area, or
happens to care to try their own hand at this in their own locale,
please let me know the outcome.

Thanks!

Al

Al

 

[[email protected]]

Bob,

You are absolutely correct. Not only do they allow anyone and everyone
to view any blueprint on file, but they will actually, for a fee, have
a blueprint copied for the person. I talked to one county official,
under the condition that I not mention his name or his department, who
confided that they were told to make any blueprint that has been
approved available to anyone who provides them with a written request.
No verification of identity required, banks and other high-risk
installations included.

He told me that I am the FIRST person to mention the security issue and
the risk involved.

Al

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Ah! Thanks for that clarification.
Public records of security systems...hmmm.

 

[Bob Worthy]

Bob,

You are absolutely correct. Not only do they allow anyone and everyone
to view any blueprint on file, but they will actually, for a fee, have
a blueprint copied for the person. I talked to one county official,
under the condition that I not mention his name or his department, who
confided that they were told to make any blueprint that has been
approved available to anyone who provides them with a written request.
No verification of identity required, banks and other high-risk
installations included.

He told me that I am the FIRST person to mention the security issue and
the risk involved.

Al

Where were the people with the "know" when the NFPA decided to make security
decissions for the public. Scary, isn't it?

 

[Jim]

Where were the people with the "know" when the NFPA decided to make security
decissions for the public. Scary, isn't it?

Bob, here's another little tidbit of information that ought to go hand
and hand with public availability of security systems blueprints.

Well here's REALLY scary for ya.
I've heard that some of the Central Station software companies are
going to India to set up central stations there. Want to guess why?

How about ***** "outsourcing" central station monitoring ******
!!!!!!!!!!

Just think. Not only can some terroist here in the states get the plans
of some Senators home, but they can get his code word and other
security information from their brother in law who works for a central
station in India whose population is .......... WHAT Percent Muslim?

Yeh ........ dats da ticket!

 

[Doug L]

India's is about 10% to 15% Muslim, but I agree its not the smartest idea
to outsource central station services overseas.

Doug L

--

 

[Bob Worthy]

Bob, here's another little tidbit of information that ought to go hand
and hand with public availability of security systems blueprints.

Well here's REALLY scary for ya.
I've heard that some of the Central Station software companies are
going to India to set up central stations there. Want to guess why?

How about ***** "outsourcing" central station monitoring ******
!!!!!!!!!!

Just think. Not only can some terroist here in the states get the plans
of some Senators home, but they can get his code word and other
security information from their brother in law who works for a central
station in India whose population is .......... WHAT Percent Muslim?

Yeh ........ dats da ticket!

I have heard of this. I believe there was word of one in Pakistan. Shouldn't
be to hard to overcome that in any sales presentation to a perspective
client. If the central station calls you and you think you are talking to
Dell's technical support, that will give you the first clue.

 

[Mark Leuck]

Bob, here's another little tidbit of information that ought to go hand
and hand with public availability of security systems blueprints.

Well here's REALLY scary for ya.
I've heard that some of the Central Station software companies are
going to India to set up central stations there. Want to guess why?

Central station software companies? Really?

How about ***** "outsourcing" central station monitoring ******
!!!!!!!!!!

Just think. Not only can some terroist here in the states get the plans
of some Senators home, but they can get his code word and other
security information from their brother in law who works for a central
station in India whose population is .......... WHAT Percent Muslim?

12% according to the CIA however I can't think of any central station
operator who has plans of some senators home available to view

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Sheesh...makes me think of that character Baboo on the old Seinfeld show.
I hope its one of the big boys that's gonna do this...it'll make it real easy to sell against Baboo the CS Operator.

 

[Jim]

I have heard of this. I believe there was word of one in Pakistan. Shouldn't
be to hard to overcome that in any sales presentation to a perspective
client.

Certainly that's a given ........ but ...... you know damn well, that
the cost is going to be something like $.25 a month and that there will
be the bottom feeders who just aren't going to let their client know
*where* the monitoring is coming from. It's always been a problem in my
area that there are companies who use centrals in East Jesus, Arkansas.
They get monitoring for a $1.50 a month. The operators don't have a
clue about local geography, events, or culture and I can just imagine
if there were a problem. I'm sure the central would really react with
great dispatch on curing any difficulties or conflicts .......... since
they're 2000 miles away and what are ya gonna do about it (?) Fly down
here tomorrow afternoon and take care of it? Yeh ...... sure!

If the central station calls you and you think you are talking to
Dell's technical support, that will give you the first clue.

I wonder how many end users that would put that "two and two" together.