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NFPA's Creation of Security Standards/Codes

R

Robert L. Bass

It will be the building departments -- the same
procedure we use now when installing fire
alarm systems. You will take your blueprints
with your security systems on it, fill out a form,
pluck $90 down on the table (more or less)...

That would eliminate 90% of small alarm installers who can't read
blueprints, let alone create their own. Furthermore, the vast majority of
retrofit jobs don't have prints available at all. Most fire alarm permit
applications do not require blueprints.
If it passes, you are given a call to come
and get your permit...

The vast majority of companies doing retrofit alarm jobs never pull a
permit. They won't start complying with a new, stricter code if they
already ignore an easy to follow one.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
 
B

Bob Worthy

Crash,

It will be the building departments--the same procedure we use now when
installing fire alarm systems. You will take your blueprints with your
security systems on it, fill out a form, pluck $90 down on the table
(more or less) and then their plans examiner will look over your
blueprint. It will be the plans examiner who will make sure that
you've complied with NFPA 730 and 731. This is where compliance
begins.

NFPA is used to this process and may consider it the norm for fire systems.
If they would have consulted with the security industry, they would have
found that once prints go to a local government entity, they become public
record. Most cities, counties don't want this liability, when it comes to
security, hence, they issue permits without asking for blueprints. They
don't want them, because again, once they have them, anyone can get ahold of
them. They become public record.
My question to you is this, "will NFPA 730, 731, and all of what I've
just described actually improve the professionality of the security
industry?"

A code/standard that is left for cities and counties, to either adopt or
not, will only be effective for those that enforce it and may even open the
door for selective enforcement. IMO, the only thing that will improve the
professionalism of the industry is #1, good quality education and #2,
creating legislation, both on the local and state level, to mandate
licensing and education, and #3 is to agressively enforce those mandates.
This can be accomplished without additional written codes and standards on
installation. It is unfortunate that it comes to this, however, the lack of
each of the 3 suggestions allows the unprofessional to live and prosper in
this industry.

Bob4Secur
 
N

no wires showing

Thank you Mikey. Had to pop in and see what convenience Jew Bass was up
to. I wanted to see if he was still Pink, and if anyone was kidnapped
lately.
 
J

Jim

Doug said:
In this area, every fire alarm permit application requires blue prints,
along with calculations and cut sheets.

Doug L


Same here for commercial. And in one county, prints must be done by a
professional engineer and submitted with a $500.00(?) fee. If two
follow-up inspections fail, resubmission along with the same fee.

No requirements for residential.
 
F

Frank Olson

Robert L. Bass said:
That would eliminate 90% of small alarm installers who can't read
blueprints, let alone create their own. Furthermore, the vast majority of
retrofit jobs don't have prints available at all. Most fire alarm permit
applications do not require blueprints.


The vast majority of companies doing retrofit alarm jobs never pull a
permit. They won't start complying with a new, stricter code if they
already ignore an easy to follow one.


"Vast majority", "never", "90%", "most"... It's been a while since you've
been "in the trade", Robert, but even when you were, CT required permits
(remember you got caught for installing without one and not having the
proper license)...

If it wasn't for the humour that your continued attempts at intelligent
comment (often resulting in your having to wipe shoe polish from your lips)
evokes, this Group would have to rely on Leuck's "wild shorts" pictures and
pages from Tom's "New Yawk Wilder Date Diary" for entertainment...

Are you ever going to tell us the "where" and the "when" it was that you
"removed a Brinks panel"?? How about telling us where we can find the "UL
Listing" for the "help system" you put together for Edwards with
over-the-counter third party software??
 
M

Mark Leuck

Damn Doug I think he got you after all these years, how will you ever live
that down?
 
A

alarman

Doug said:
In this area, every fire alarm permit application requires blue
prints, along with calculations and cut sheets.

Doug L

You forget, he lives in a make believe world.
js
 
A

alarman

Mark said:
Damn Doug I think he got you after all these years, how will you ever
live that down?

Give him a break...he's English, so he talks and spells funny.
js
 
R

Robert L. Bass

Damn Doug I think he got you after all
these years, how will you ever live
that down?

If he actually worked with them one would expect he'd know what they're
called.
 
F

Frank Olson

Robert L. Bass said:
If he actually worked with them one would expect he'd know what they're
called.


If you'd actually worked with Napco, you'd have known what the battery
harness was for and how it was connected...
 
J

Jim

Doug said:
I'm thinking of selling "surveilance" cameras, apparently you don't need to
know what they're called in order to sell them.

Doug L


Tushey! ;-\
 
R

Robert L. Bass

I'm thinking of selling "surveilance" cameras...

My lack of typing skill can be remedied with effort and practice.
Unfortunately for you there is no effective treatment for stupidity.
 
F

Frank Olson

Robert L. Bass said:
My lack of typing skill can be remedied with effort and practice.

You're clearly not putting in enough "effort" or "practice". After six
years you still can't type... I'd suggest spending a few afternoons with
"Mavis" (when you're not "tied up" on the phone supporting your eleven sales
a day)... That'll leave you about two hours in a twenty-four hour day...
If you want longer days, I'd suggest volunteering for the mission to Mars...
 
N

Nomen Nescio

Al Colombo said:
I would like to hear from those who are interested in the issue of NFPA
(National Fire Protection Association) and the creation of security
standards/codes: NFPA 730 and NFPA 731.

I'm especially interested in whether you believe a codified standard
consisting of protective mandates and installation practices is in the
best interest of the client and the security industry in general.

If you've read the NFPA proposals, you'll understand the flaw. These
idiots are assuming you can apply fire alarm principles to burglar alarms
and thereby solve all the industry's problems. They want plans and
permits. They want inspections. They want third party certification. And
all this shows is a fundamental lack of understanding of the difference
between burglar and fire alarms.

The main purpose of regular fire alarm inspections is to help assure that
the system will operate when needed. Fire alarm systems just sit there
most of the time, and if they fail, the severe form of failure is not to
operate at all. If that happens, people may die. Yes, there are false
fire alarms, but when those false alarms occur, it is likely to be due to
something that can be detected during an inspection -- dirty smoke
detectors, defective retards on a waterflow switch, and so on.

I can inspect the hell out of a burglar alarm system today, and I cannot
guarantee you that it absolutely will not cause a false alarm tonight.

If the NFPA is concerned about workmanship standards, then UL has already
done that: UL 681 has been around for about 80 years now. If the NFPA is
concerned about extents of protection, UL has addressed that too. If the
NFPA is concerned about assuring the effectiveness of alarm systems through
third party certification, they need to understand that UL spends maybe one
day a year with each listed company -- and does nothing more than a visual
inspection of a handful of certificated systems. Ultimately, the
reliability and effectiveness of the systems depends on the skill and
dedication of the installing company, and standards, inspections, and
certifications will do nothing to improve that.

This is all about making money. Your customer will be paying for you to
draw up plans for a strip-mall store's burglar alarm. Your customer will
then pay the cost of an inspection. You will charge a UL certificate fee,
and you'll pay UL about $1500 a year for the privilege. If your customer
remodels his store, you get to do it all over again. Will you need to take
out a permit to add a door, or replace a defective motion detector?

And what, exactly, will be the benefit from doing all of this? The
insurance industry has long since lost interest in UL certificates for
purposes of insurance discounts. They require certificates for a small
number of high risk customers, but the numbers are way down from years gone
by. False alarm reduction? Nonsense. And the best proof of this is to
look at the British model.

For many years, England has had detailed national standards for burglar
alarm systems, standards that cover both installation and maintenance. All
monitored systems must receive an inspection twice a year. Police only
respond to alarms installed by companies that have been approved by the
individual police department, and are approved by a national inspection
body. Those companies issue a certification for each and every system they
install, stating that it has been installed in accordance with British
standards and is receiving those semiannual inspections.

And what has been the result of all this regulation? The false alarm rate
per system was substantially the same as that in the United States. What
finally did lead to a dramatic reduction in false alarms was a ruthless
system of false alarm quotas imposed by the police, plus requirements for
some form of alarm verification. Excessive false alarms from an account
leads to termination of police response. Excessive false alarms from an
installing company leads to a refusal by the police to issue any new alarm
permits for that company. And none of this requires the submission of
plans or field inspections by city officials or the police.

The NFPA's approach is a money-making plan for the NFPA and the cities and
UL. It will not result in a reduction in false alarms, and any improvement
in the detection capabilities of alarm systems will be impossible to
measure. Plus, the insurance industry could care less about all of this.

The NFPA is an anal-retentive organization that believes that all the
world's problems will cease to exist if only there are a few more codes and
standards for people to follow. Look at how the size of the fire alarm
standards have increased over the last twenty-five years, and think how big
they will be in another hundred years, as the NFPA seeks to regulate every
last detail of our industry.

It particularly offends me that NFPA members aren't even allowed to vote on
proposals like this unless they make the pilgrimage to the convention to
vote in person.

- badenov
 
J

Jim

Frank said:
Touché. "Tushey" refers to somethin' else entirely... ;-)

I know, but as long as everyone was taking liberties with spelling .....
 
J

Jim

Robert said:
My lack of typing skill can be remedied with effort and practice.
Unfortunately for you there is no effective treatment for stupidity.

You're a fat slob. In normal people, that could be remidied.

So I guess that just leaves you fat AND stupid.
 
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