NFPA's Creation of Security Standards/Codes

[[email protected]]

Bob,

I believe I gave my opinion earlier regarding who will end up being the
AHJ in this regard. As for the "third party verifier," I believe that
the conclusion that you came to as you worked through the thinking
process (minus the anger points to third-party certification, just
as we have certified burglar alarm companies that must be certified to
do certain applications because of insurance concerns, such as banks.

Can I quote any portion of what you've written if I do a story on this?


Thanks,
Al

 

[[email protected]]

Where I live, at county and city level you have to have a permit if you
even install a public address system with low-voltage wiring. Anything
kind of installation you will have a green card, which runs almost $60
a pop. Gov't is hurting for money and as I said 5 years ago, as we
further globalize, gov't will have to make up the short-fall by coming
back to taxpayers and now businesses. They will, in a word, have to
create new and innovative ways to regain their lost tax revenue. Do
you see this as a possible reason why cities and counties might gladly
embrace this kind of arrangment?

 

[Robert L. Bass]

What about those in the security field who

choose to do a substandard job? Wouldn't
a set of codified standards go a long way
toward 1) forcing these firms to do a better
job, and 2) create a more equal playing field
for all within this industry when it comes to
an apples-to-apples bid?

Hi Al,

Good point. It would help *if* the fast-buck artists pushing substandard
packages were honest with their clients about the level of protection they
offer. Past experience indicates these characters are usually anything but
honest.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Can you give me some for instances where

certain sensors work in one location but not
another?

Sure thing, Al. Glass break detectors work well when installed according to
instructions in acoustically active rooms. They don't function as well in
rooms with heavy curtains and thick carpet.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[[email protected]]

Norman,

Isn't it true that everyone is working toward that goal? Why would
that be a concern if these standards help us install better systems?
Do we really need these standards? Can you comment on these issues?
Also, can I quote any of what you say if I decide to do a story on this
issue? Thanks!

Al Colombo, SSI

 

[Jim]

NIck,

What about those in the security field who choose to do a substandard
job? Wouldn't a set of codified standards go a long way toward 1)
forcing these firms to do a better job, and 2) create a more equal
playing field for all within this industry when it comes to an
apples-to-apples bid?

Also, can I quote you in a story if I decide to write one?

Thanks,
Al Colombo, SSI

Al, when you're replying to someone it would make it a little easier
for everyone to know what and who you were responding to, if you'd
include, at least a little, of the text of their post.


Comment on your above question .........

Who is ever going to inspect security system installations? Sure,
staged inspections on new construction, might stand a chance of
stopping some of the inadequate and poor wiring that occurs in this
trade, but how would someone inspect an after market job? How would
wireless systems be "inspected" How would "takeover" of old systems be
inspected and "approved"? And who bears the cost?

How is all of this going to affect the cost of alarm systems? How will
"that" affect the industry ....... it self? The question of whether
code should be written or not .... or by whom, is only the tip of the
proverbial iceburg, of what the ultimate questions and results might
be.

This, I'd think more than anything else is likely the cause of any
reluctance to let NFPA write the code. Would they really be concerned
about the burglar alarm installation trade or more concerned with the
prestige of writing the code, and secure in having the code accepted by
municipalities, simply because they're accepted for fire codes? And if
municipalities do or don't pick up on it, once it's written, and
accepted, there's no turning back. The slippery slope is started. Then
would NBFAA come out with their own code? What about UL? Wouldn't THEY
like to get into this? We're talkin MEGABUCKS here.

It's about more than simply writting the code and who's going to write
it.

 

[no wires showing]

Hey knucklehead this isn't Graham.
How very wrong you are about me seeing one of your retarded installs.
That abortion you called an install at the Baptist church always makes
me laugh. All of that hob knobbing with the Brazilian spearchuckers
must have tainted your memory. The only "doctor" who would have owned
that ghetto tent you called a house is named Grabow, and he's in the
pre-smoked pipes business. You're lying through your store-bought teeth
as usual, and YES I do have a problem with using stranded wire for a
transformer you yambag.
Fishing makes you seasick? OK we'll chip in and send you for dinner at
a cannibal colony. Put your mouth to rest and do something productive
like getting a job as a speed bump.

 

[Jim]

Jim,

Can I quote some of what you just said if I decide to do a story on it?
I may leave some of the emotional parts out though . Thanks for
considering my question and going to such great lengths to answer.

Al

Feel free to use what ever you want.

However, I think the "emotional parts" are what "some people" really
need to hear. I'm quite sure "they're" completely oblivious to what
their reputation is. It's hard for "them" to concentrate on a golf
ball, smoking a big cigar, while drinking a drink with a little
umbrella in it, while on a junket on some tropical island ......and the
well being of the whole burglar alarm trade ...... at the same time.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

...this isn't Graham.

I didn't say you were Morgan. Cracker is a term for racist idiots. It
seems highly appropriate.

How very wrong you are about me
seeing one of your retarded installs.
That abortion you called an install
at the Baptist church...

It's easy to *claim* you've seen something at "the Baptist church."

All of that hob knobbing with the
Brazilian spearchuckers...

You really need to work on your racial slurs. "Spearchucker" is an
insulting term for an Afro-American -- not a Brazilian.

--- snip rubbish ---

YES I do have a problem with using
stranded wire for a transformer...

Perhaps if you'd actually installed a few you might realize you're wrong.

Fishing makes you seasick?

Where'd you get that idea?

 

[Frank Olson]

You have a problem with using 18/2 stranded wire for a plug-in
transformer?

I sure do, Robert... First... I wouldn't use a "plug-in" transformer for a
security system. That just invites the user to unplug it so he can use some
other house-hold appliance in its place and conveniently forget to plug it
back in afterwards. All ours are hard-wired in. Using stranded conductors
also invites the possibility of a dead short across the transformer
terminals...

You've probably never seen one of my installations.

Isn't that interesting... You haven't seen any of Jim's installations
either and you still don't know where I work...

Yes, I built my own central station. I bought a house from a doctor. Was
a perfect arrangement for a non-listed central station. The office space
was separated from the living area.

Uh-huh... and on really hot days, you could just hit the old remote and
"roll up" one wall to allow a whole lot of fresh air in, right??. Hope you
didn't forget to take down the pictures and "certificates of appreciation"
you'd tacked on to the overhead door first... )

 

[Jim]

Rocky,

Can you give me some for instances where certain sensors work in one
location but not another? Also, can I quote any of what you have to
say in this regard if I do a story on it?

Thanks,
Al Colombo, SSI

How would any inspector know if motion detectors should be used or not,
or if so, what kind? Will there be cats, dogs? Should there be outdoor
sounders or not? How long should the exit delay be .....for a
handicapped person? Is a medical alert system a "security system"?
Should there be audio glass breaks or glass shock sensors? who knows
how the rooms are going to be furnished ..... after the house is built?
Should a double hung window be allowed to be "ventilated"? What if the
homeowner only "WANTS" a couple of doors and windows done? How do you
account for mutual access in a mother daughter house? What are the
rules for partitioning a system? Location of keypads ........ inside
the master bedroom or in the hallways for everyone to have access? What
if the owner doesn't want to "afford" a complete system? Only do
partial now .... the rest "later". What kind of inspection can occur on
an after market residential installation? What kind of inspection can
be done on a wireless system? What about changes to a system as the
family changes, grows, or gets older, aquires or loses pets? What is
someone is being stalked or wants contacts and glass breaks and
vibration and stress sensors and motion detectors and electric eyes,
and panic buttons in every room?

Need I continue?

Sounds to me as if the basic code should be:

Contacts on three doors, a motion detector, one keypad,sounder, and
hook up to central.

After that, anything in addition falls outside the code. ))))))

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Yes Bob, and that is a good example of

why you need standardized guidelines.

I disagree. The manufacturers' instructions tell you how and where to use
their devices. Each model has slightly different characteristics from the
next. A standard, by definition, is going to be too general to replace the
manufacturer's instructions.

For jobs that require it, there is already a set of standards for burglar
alarm installation. UL has done an excellent job of defining protection
minima. Why should we now have yet another standard?

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Jim]

Yes Bob, and that is a good example of why you need standardized
guidelines.
BobbyD

How is any "inspector" or code writer going to tell an installer when,
how and where to install an audio glass break detector?

Something like:

7.3.5.6.9.7.34/ Audio glass break detectors may be installed in any
room where the end user, or any subsequent owner of the home will
promise never to furnish the room with heavy drapes, thick rugs and
soft plushy furniture and that no small dogs with a high pitched bark
will be allowed to jump up against the window or door, while barking,
when a stranger approaches the house.

4.3.6.78/ When ever the neighbor refuses to lock up their extension
ladder, which is kept in their back yard, plainly visible to any
intruder to the alarmed house, the second story windows, must be
protected and motion detectors or glass break detectors must be
installed in every room ( See 7.3.5.6.9.7.34 ref audio glass break)

Yeh .....uh huh!

 

[Crash Gordon®]

Oh, I can really see the electrical inspectors getting in on this...sheesh...half of them out here can't intrepret the existing code as it is...how will they ever deal with skinny little 22 ga wire?

The PD? Another oye-vey there. They have told some of my customers that their false alarm was caused by a low battery....this is as I am pointing to the screwdriver pry marks on the rear kitchen door!

Someone wants to make money, not benefit the client or the industry.

Contractor's licenses are the same bullshit. I pay 600 bucks a year for a contractors license, + license bonds all that crap...so what happens when I report a contractor without a license...absolutelyfuckingnothing. The only way they will do anything about an unlicensed contractor is IF the buyer complains...and why would he complain if he's able to hire an unlicensed contractor who doesn't have legal overheads...licenses, bonds, licenses, more licenses, tax licenses, more freeking licenses than you can shake a stick at. I have to have a stupid tax license for every damn town I do business in (currently 20) and every month we gotta fill out all that crap. Sometimes I think it's better to be a trunk-slammer that just does good work.

 

[Mark Leuck]

I didn't say you were Morgan. Cracker is a term for racist idiots. It
seems highly appropriate.

Actually it's not unless you consider poor white guys racists

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=cracker

 

[Bob Worthy]

Sounds to me as if the basic code should be:

Contacts on three doors, a motion detector, one keypad,sounder, and
hook up to central.

After that, anything in addition falls outside the code.

I am sure some would lobby for that! Codes are usually written for a
"minimum" anyway.

Bob4Secur

 

[mikey]

Tom! Welcome back.

 

[Mark Leuck]

I see he still doesn't have a decent internet provider, at least he's not
using WebTV anymore

 

[Jim]

Hmmmmmm......... Silence ????? I must have struck a nerve with my last
comment....... I don't hear any of the usual static about how crappy the
Trunk Slammers have made the industry, and that's why we all need the new
codes BS..... If I'm not mistaken, Trunk Slammer CAN'T afford TV commercials
and Newspaper ads....... :^))

of the
BIG solutions the to service, reputation importantly,

I'd reply, but you mentioned so many things that would require a
lengthy response, that at this late hour would be too arduous an effort
to try and sort out )))))

Gnite!

 

[[email protected]]

Crash,

It will be the building departments--the same procedure we use now when
installing fire alarm systems. You will take your blueprints with your
security systems on it, fill out a form, pluck $90 down on the table
(more or less) and then their plans examiner will look over your
blueprint. It will be the plans examiner who will make sure that
you've complied with NFPA 730 and 731. This is where compliance
begins.

If it passes, you are given a call to come and get your permit. When
you get there, you will fill out a form and plunk on the table your $50
base fee with so much per 100 sq. foot or so much a device. When you
are done with the job, you call and a man might come out to look over
the wiring job you just did. Now, that man may very well be the
electrical inspector. The electrical man will come out to make sure
the wiring is installed right and he may also be the one to make sure
you put them where the blueprints say they need to be. That is all he
will do. He will rarely make a judgement call on placement.

On the fire side, once the job is done, the fire inspector, be he from
the FD or the building department itself, comes out and you have to do
your thing, testing each device to make sure they work, as well as the
NAC devices. I guarantee you, it will be the building department in
most cases and I doubt the PD will have any part of the process as they
are likely to use the same procedures and governmental departments they
already have in place.

On the UL side, if UL and NFPA do what they have done so far on the
fire installation third-party certification issue (which is to sell
third-party certification of all fire alarm installers to those AHJs
who will listen and go along with them) they will sell municipalities
and county building departments, licensing departments, etc. on the
same third-party certifification. As you know, they don't come out and
inspect 100% of the systems they certificate. Best estimate would be
10% over 12 months, and that's being positive.

I am not passing judgement on all of this, mind you, only telling you
how this will play out in my estimation. There are many other factors
to consider, but if you have a state license or state fire certificate
and you expect to work in a jurisdiction where a UL third-party
certificated installer is required, you won't be doing any work there.

My question to you is this, "will NFPA 730, 731, and all of what I've
just described actually improve the professionality of the security
industry?"

I'd like to hear from those who agree with it as well as those who do
not. When and if I write this story I must provide both sides in the
best way possible and allow the reader to make up his/her own mind.

Thank you for all your help!!
Al Colombo


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