NFPA Code Question

[Allan Waghalter]

I inspected a residential fire alarm last week that had been yellow tagged
by the inspecting company because the alarm panel was located in the attic.
Does anyone know where this would be referenced in NFPA-72? He also tagged
the panel because there was no return loop. Under class B, return loop is
not required. Did I miss something?
Allan

 

[Nick Markowitz]

Panel location must be accessable if you have a remote
to reset panel with out having to go up into attic that would meet code if
you must go up into the attic to reset that would not be acceptable/ Your
right class b does not need a return obiously the individual ding the
inspection doesnot know what he is looking at unless a local code would
require class a loops.

 

[Robert L Bass]

I inspected a residential fire alarm last week that had been yellow tagged

by the inspecting company because the alarm panel was located in the attic.
Does anyone know where this would be referenced in NFPA-72? He also tagged
the panel because there was no return loop. Under class B, return loop is
not required. Did I miss something?

While I wouldn't place a FACP in an attic, as long as it's
accessible (per code description) and the environment is
controlled (not too hot/cold/humid to meet the panel specs) it
should be ok.

There's no need for a return loop on a Class A loop.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[alarman]

Thanks Nick,
It is a residential home alarm (Networx 6) with smoke detectors wired in.
No need to access the panel. The keypads are the remotes. I know that I
would not have tagged for this.
Allan

What kind of attic are we talking about here? Is it insulated, finished,
heated, etc? Can you stand up in there? Or is it like the ones we have with
a 4 in 12 max pitch where the poor service tech has to crawl up there in 150
degree heat to service the panel? How do your batteries and circuit boards
hold up?
js

 

[Michael Baker]

NFPA 70-2002
110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be
installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the
listing or labeling.

NFPA 72-2002
4.4.4 Performance and Limitations.
4.4.4.1 Voltage, Temperature, and Humidity Variation. Equipment shall
be designed so that it is capable of performing its intended functions
under the following conditions:
(1) At 85 percent and at 110 percent of the nameplate primary (main)
and secondary (standby) input voltage(s)
(2) At ambient temperatures of 0°C (32°F) and 49°C (120°F)
(3) At a relative humidity of 85 percent and an ambient temperature of
30°C (86°F)

NFPA 72-2002
4.4.5 Protection of Fire Alarm Control Unit(s). In areas that are not
continuously occupied, automatic smoke detection shall be provided at
the location of each fire alarm control unit(s) to provide notification
of fire at that location.
Exception: Where ambient conditions prohibit installation of automatic
smoke detection, automatic heat detection shall be permitted.

NFPA 72-2002
5.7.1.8* Unless specifically designed and listed for the expected
conditions, smoke detectors shall not be installed if any of the
following ambient conditions exist:
(1) Temperature below 0°C (32°F)
(2) Temperature above 38°C (100°F)
(3) Relative humidity above 93 percent
(4) Air velocity greater than 1.5 m/sec (300 ft/min)

 

[Allan Waghalter]

Attics are notoriously hot here. This house is a three story home in West
University Place, a real upper class, yuppie neighborhood. Its new
construction, you can stand in the attic w/ no problem and the undlayment
for the roof is a material called "Cool Ply". The attics in homes with the
Cool Ply do not really get too hot. The panel is at the head of the attic
stairway so you don't have to actually go into the attic to access it, just
stand on the stairs.

I don't think it is a code violation. I would not normally install a panel
in an unfinished attic such as this, but other than a diminished battery
life, I don't see any real problem.

 

[Nick Markowitz]

Thanks Mike.

As long as the attic does not exceed the temp, humidty etc in chart some
attics do some do not and he has a heat detector covering the panel then
the installation would pass.
however even a panel mounted in a warehouse could concivably be subjected to
several days below zero.Every year.
which is why you want it in the heated office if it has one but some do not.
Since this is a residential install many times there never even inspected
many times it is a judgement call because the idea location is not 100%
obtainable.

It is basically the same problem with electrical load centers.(breaker
Panel) one place they specifically say it can not be mounted is over a sink
or toilet or in a closet and you must maintain 3 ft of clearance around the
panel.
etc. You would not install a load center in an attic but if it was supplying
HVAC equiptment in the attic a small load center could be mountd if the temp
humidity chart in NEC is followed.

 

[Crash Gordon]

You guys inspect residential fire? The only residential fire stuff that gets
inspected here are firesprinklers.


| Attics are notoriously hot here. This house is a three story home in West
| University Place, a real upper class, yuppie neighborhood. Its new
| construction, you can stand in the attic w/ no problem and the undlayment
| for the roof is a material called "Cool Ply". The attics in homes with
the
| Cool Ply do not really get too hot. The panel is at the head of the attic
| stairway so you don't have to actually go into the attic to access it,
just
| stand on the stairs.
|
| I don't think it is a code violation. I would not normally install a
panel
| in an unfinished attic such as this, but other than a diminished battery
| life, I don't see any real problem.
|
| | >
| > | >> Thanks Nick,
| >> It is a residential home alarm (Networx 6) with smoke detectors wired
in.
| >> No need to access the panel. The keypads are the remotes. I know that
I
| >> would not have tagged for this.
| >> Allan
| >
| > What kind of attic are we talking about here? Is it insulated, finished,
| > heated, etc? Can you stand up in there? Or is it like the ones we have
| > with
| > a 4 in 12 max pitch where the poor service tech has to crawl up there in
| > 150
| > degree heat to service the panel? How do your batteries and circuit
boards
| > hold up?
| > js
| >
| >
|
|

 

[JoeRaisin]

Here in MI they inspect our residential fire.

Even if we are not primary we still have to pull a permit.

 

[Nomen Nescio]

Michael Baker said:

NFPA 72-2002
4.4.4 Performance and Limitations.
4.4.4.1 Voltage, Temperature, and Humidity Variation. Equipment shall
be designed so that it is capable of performing its intended functions
under the following conditions:
(1) At 85 percent and at 110 percent of the nameplate primary (main)
and secondary (standby) input voltage(s)
(2) At ambient temperatures of 0°C (32°F) and 49°C (120°F)
(3) At a relative humidity of 85 percent and an ambient temperature of
30°C (86°F)

These are minimum requirements for the equipment. They don't have anything
to do with the installation, since a manufacturer could choose to exceed
these minimum requirements.

NFPA 72-2002
4.4.5 Protection of Fire Alarm Control Unit(s). In areas that are not
continuously occupied, automatic smoke detection shall be provided at
the location of each fire alarm control unit(s) to provide notification
of fire at that location.
Exception: Where ambient conditions prohibit installation of automatic
smoke detection, automatic heat detection shall be permitted.

The system in question is a residential system. This requirement does not
apply here.

NFPA 72-2002
5.7.1.8* Unless specifically designed and listed for the expected
conditions, smoke detectors shall not be installed if any of the
following ambient conditions exist:
(1) Temperature below 0°C (32°F)
(2) Temperature above 38°C (100°F)
(3) Relative humidity above 93 percent
(4) Air velocity greater than 1.5 m/sec (300 ft/min)

Again, a smoke detector is not required for equipment protection in a
residential system. These requirements are irrelevant.

One section you neglected to mention is NEC section 110.26, relating to
spaces around electrical equipment.

Generally, there is a working space requirement of 3 feet in front of the
equipment, which can be waived by special permission for low voltage
equipment. But there is also a "dedicated equipment space" requirement,
which requires a clear space in front of the equipment that extends from
the floor to 6 feet above the equipment or the structural ceiling,
whichever is less. This requirement could give an inspector grounds to
reject a panel installed in an attic.

The temperature specs for this panel are 32 degrees to 120 degrees
Fahrenheit,, which might be a problem for some attics. Panels must be
installed per the manufacturer's specs.

Personally, every time I see a panel installed in an attic or above a drop
ceiling, I figure the installer is a complete asshole, because he's
forgotten that people will have to work on that system, and he's too
goddamn lazy to put the panel in an accessible location. So I'm on the
electrical inspector's side: move the panel! Of course, the inspector is
an idiot when he starts talking about return loops on two-wire smoke
detector loops.

Inspectors may think they're God, but they're not. They're paid to enforce
code, not make up their own code as they go along. The installer should
have asked the inspector to cite the code sections that support his
decision.

- badenov

 

[Michael Baker]

Michael Baker said:


These are minimum requirements for the equipment. They don't have anything
to do with the installation, since a manufacturer could choose to exceed
these minimum requirements.

You're right. How's this:
NFPA 72-2002
4.4.4.2.4 Equipment shall be installed in locations where conditions do
not exceed the voltage, temperature, and humidity limits specified in
4.4.4.1.
Exception: Equipment specifically listed for use in locations where
conditions can exceed the upper and lower limits specified in 4.4.4.1
shall be permitted.

The system in question is a residential system. This requirement does not
apply here.

The requirements do apply if the fire alarm system is used to meet the
minimum requirements of the building code (see chapter 11). If this
system is installed in addition to smoke alarms, the requirements would
not apply.

Again, a smoke detector is not required for equipment protection in a
residential system. These requirements are irrelevant.

One section you neglected to mention is NEC section 110.26, relating to
spaces around electrical equipment.

Generally, there is a working space requirement of 3 feet in front of the
equipment, which can be waived by special permission for low voltage
equipment. But there is also a "dedicated equipment space" requirement,
which requires a clear space in front of the equipment that extends from
the floor to 6 feet above the equipment or the structural ceiling,
whichever is less. This requirement could give an inspector grounds to
reject a panel installed in an attic.

Good point.

The temperature specs for this panel are 32 degrees to 120 degrees
Fahrenheit,, which might be a problem for some attics. Panels must be
installed per the manufacturer's specs.

Personally, every time I see a panel installed in an attic or above a drop
ceiling, I figure the installer is a complete asshole, because he's
forgotten that people will have to work on that system, and he's too
goddamn lazy to put the panel in an accessible location. So I'm on the
electrical inspector's side: move the panel! Of course, the inspector is
an idiot when he starts talking about return loops on two-wire smoke
detector loops.

Inspectors may think they're God, but they're not. They're paid to enforce
code, not make up their own code as they go along. The installer should
have asked the inspector to cite the code sections that support his
decision.

More like demigod or godlike. Unfortunately the inspector has the
upper hand in many cases. One may win the war and loose the battle
(certificate of occupancy).

- badenov

Mike

 

[Nomen Nescio]

Mike Baker said:

The requirements do apply if the fire alarm system is used to meet the
minimum requirements of the building code (see chapter 11). If this
system is installed in addition to smoke alarms, the requirements would
not apply.

If I read you correctly, you are saying that in a household fire alarm
system that does not use 120VAC smoke alarms, a smoke detector must be used
to protect the control panel. But if 120VAC smoke alarms are installed and
system smoke detectors are also installed, then a smoke detector is not
required at the control panel. I think you're wrong on this one. The
smoke detector at the panel is not required in a household fire alarm
system.

NFPA 72 - 11.1.4 states: "The requirements of Chapter 4 through Chapter 9
shall not apply unless otherwise indicated." You've cited a panel
protection requirement from Chapter 4. I do not see this requirement in
Chapter 11. Have I missed it?

Say, you're not a building inspector, are you?

- badenov

 

[Michael Baker]

Mike Baker said:


If I read you correctly, you are saying that in a household fire alarm
system that does not use 120VAC smoke alarms, a smoke detector must be used
to protect the control panel. But if 120VAC smoke alarms are installed and
system smoke detectors are also installed, then a smoke detector is not
required at the control panel. I think you're wrong on this one. The
smoke detector at the panel is not required in a household fire alarm
system.

NFPA 72 - 11.1.4 states: "The requirements of Chapter 4 through Chapter 9
shall not apply unless otherwise indicated." You've cited a panel
protection requirement from Chapter 4. I do not see this requirement in
Chapter 11. Have I missed it?

See NFPA 72 Chapter 11.3.2 and A.11.3.2.

Where the building code requires smoke detection in a one or two family
dwelling, one of the following two methods are allowed:

1) Self-contained smoke alarm(s) installed in sleeping rooms and
outside sleeping rooms and on each additional level within the dwelling
or;

2) A system of smoke detector(s) installed in sleeping rooms and
outside sleeping rooms and on each additional level within the
dwelling.

Item number 2 requires a control panel, which in turn requires a smoke
detector to supervise the its location.

Say, you're not a building inspector, are you?

No. As much as I'd like to be a building inspector, I can't. My
parents are still married

- badenov

Mike

 

[Michael Baker]

One may win the war and loose the battle (certificate of occupancy).

err... scratch that, reverse it. Bad my.

 

[Bob La Londe]

I inspected a residential fire alarm last week that had been yellow tagged
by the inspecting company because the alarm panel was located in the attic.
Does anyone know where this would be referenced in NFPA-72? He also tagged
the panel because there was no return loop. Under class B, return loop is
not required. Did I miss something?
Allan

How did this resolve?

Bob

 

[Allan Waghalter]

I have not been back, but on our first hot day, I will measure the
temperature in the attic. If it is under 120, I will green tag the panel.
If it is 120 or higher, I'll drop the panel down into the utility room and
then green tag it. The owner prefers it be taken out of the attic.
Allan

 

[Nomen Nescio]

Mike Baker said:

See NFPA 72 Chapter 11.3.2 and A.11.3.2.

Where the building code requires smoke detection in a one or two family
dwelling, one of the following two methods are allowed:

1) Self-contained smoke alarm(s) installed in sleeping rooms and
outside sleeping rooms and on each additional level within the dwelling
or;

2) A system of smoke detector(s) installed in sleeping rooms and
outside sleeping rooms and on each additional level within the
dwelling.

Item number 2 requires a control panel, which in turn requires a smoke
detector to supervise the its location.

I disagree. You're citing section 4.4.5, which, I think, is the only NFPA
72 requirement concerning panel protection using a smoke detector.
However, section 4.1.2 says:

"The requirements of this chapter shall apply to fire alarm systems,
equipment, and components addressed in Chapter 5 through Chapter 10."

Household fire alarm systems are covered by Chapter 11. Your requirement
doesn't apply. If it did, what other Chapter 4 requirements should also
apply? All of them?

I understand your point of view: if a system uses smoke alarms, they will
not all be disabled by a single fire, but if a system depends on a single
control panel, a single fire at the control panel could wipe out the entire
system. Probably this is something that should be addressed during the
next code development cycle.

Personally, I think it's a bit wasteful to put a smoke detector inside a
small residential closet. I think 4.4.5, and any future Chapter 11
section, should permit the use of a rate of rise detector instead of a
smoke detector, under all conditions. So far as I know, no fire alarm
control panel has ever been disabled by smoke.

- badenov

 

[Michael Baker]

Mike Baker said:


I disagree. You're citing section 4.4.5, which, I think, is the only NFPA
72 requirement concerning panel protection using a smoke detector.
However, section 4.1.2 says:

"The requirements of this chapter shall apply to fire alarm systems,
equipment, and components addressed in Chapter 5 through Chapter 10."

Household fire alarm systems are covered by Chapter 11. Your requirement
doesn't apply. If it did, what other Chapter 4 requirements should also
apply? All of them?

Admittedly, the thread supporting my statement is disjointed.
Nonetheless, the thread exists (at least in my tiny little brain).

I understand your point of view: if a system uses smoke alarms, they will
not all be disabled by a single fire, but if a system depends on a single
control panel, a single fire at the control panel could wipe out the entire
system. Probably this is something that should be addressed during the
next code development cycle.

The requirement to install a smoke detector to "protect" control
equipment was initially removed in the 2007 code cycle. At the last
minute the requirement was reinstated with the intent to eventually
remove it once the requirement is added to the IBC/IFC. Likewise for
the single manual box requirement.

Personally, I think it's a bit wasteful to put a smoke detector inside a
small residential closet. I think 4.4.5, and any future Chapter 11
section, should permit the use of a rate of rise detector instead of a
smoke detector, under all conditions. So far as I know, no fire alarm
control panel has ever been disabled by smoke.

I know, it sounds silly, however, Annex A indicates that anecdotal
evidence supports the requirement. Smoke detection vs. heat detection
to ensure action is taken before the control is incapacitated by fire.
While the rule requires a smoke detector, the exception allows a heat
detector to be used.

- badenov

Mike