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New battery, car still dead as doornail

E

Eeyore

Jerry G. said:
I would check that the connections are on taught. What you are
describing is the alternator is probably not properly charging the
battery.

No is isn't.

Sometimes when a battery in a car goes bad, it also takes the
alternator with it.

Just how ?

There are times when the alternator goes first and
damages the battery because it overcharges the battery and then goes
shorted from overheating.

He's only driven to the edge of his plot FFS !

I'm 99.9% certain it's a broken earth strap. You can usually check easily with a
heavy duty jump lead placed between some good (unpainted) contacts points on the
engine block and car chassis, re-making the connection, unless it's further back
the chain right at the battery (but unlikely).

Graham
 
J

Jim Yanik

Main fuse? This one is not in the little box with the rest of the
fuses?

Most cars have TWO fuse boxes;one under the hood that holds the high
current fuses for engine stuff,and one under the dash for the rest of the
car. the main fusebox is usually close to the battery.

The main fuse is actually a fusible link;a metal strap designed to melt as
a specific current.

see your owner's manual,or get a service manual from an auto store or
online.
 
J

Jim Yanik

Nope... The battery clamps are probably OK. There is a chance that
the heavy cable from battery negative to chassis (or engine), or the
cable from battery positive to the starter or starter relay is loose.
Check the connections on the other end of those wires. If they're
tight and clean (not corroded), then they are likely not the problem.
That said, there's a 99.97% chance that you've damaged the car's
electronics (computers). Your ECC (Engine Control Computer) is the
guy that controls almost everything under the hood. If he's dead,
then your car is essentially dead. Haul or tow the car to a
*qualified* service facility for a thorough diagnosis. If it's the
ECC, make sure your Master Card and/or Visa are in good standing.
Judging from your description of events, the car might be beyond
economical repair.

you can get a good ECU from a junkyard,for a fraction of wehat a dealer
would charge.
you MUST match the part numbers for your specific model and engine.
 
Background:   1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean
under hood.   Last night it started as usual.   I drove it to the dumpster
at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car,
and cut engine.   When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual
click of a dead battery;  digital clock very dim etc.

Went to NAPA today and bought topnotch battery (the same
kind that came in car when new).   I did accidentally install
it backwards (neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post),
got some sparks, but the battery is now securely connected.
The lead clamps are pretty clean and don't appear damaged.
But no power whatever, clock dead, nothing.

Ideas?

"Refer all servicing to qualified personnel"

So far in my life I've had a total of 3 car batteries that simply went
open
circuit, presumably from a failed internal connection. In all cases
simply replacing the battery (and verifying the charging system) was
all that was needed. Fortunately I got the polarity right the first
time.
The other 2 got changed at Sears but worked anyway. Also in all
cases everything operated normally until it died when trying to
start.
"Normally" included no dim lights, sluggish starter motor, etc.

 
E

Eeyore

Steve B. said:
When you hook up the battery backwards (the OP did) it doesn't cause
the "earth strap" to break.

I didn't say it did.

The OP says it failed to re-satrt long before he fitted the replacement battery.

Did you even bother to read the post properly ?

Graham

It burns out the fusible links or blows
fuses and maybe even cooks some electronic components.

Never cooked any for me, but it was just a brief touch. Wouldn't have given the
alternator diodes too long to live.

Graham
 
D

default

Believe it or not I have once stupidly done the same (just brushed the terminals
thankfully) but it seems everything was reverse protected.

Graham

I knew a guy who did that to a company truck - just long enough to fry
one or two diodes - from that moment on the charging indicator would
glow dimly all the time but otherwise it ran OK.
 
S

sparky

When you hook up the battery backwards (the OP did) it doesn't cause
the "earth strap" to break.  It burns out the fusible links or blows
fuses and maybe even cooks some electronic components.



Alternator diodes are a good possibility. And many other more
expensive things
if they were not polarity protected.
 
T

terryc

Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean
under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster
at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car,
and cut engine. When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual
click of a dead battery; digital clock very dim etc.

2c guess/question, has the starter motor stuck up? my 92 mazda van just
occassionally has the starter motor latch up (no noise), So I tap the
side with a hammer via a 3' rod (well, it is buried weel underneath) and
all is hnky dory.
 
S

Scott Dorsey

Cleo Frank said:
Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean
under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster
at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car,
and cut engine. When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual
click of a dead battery; digital clock very dim etc.

Sounds good. It would be a good idea to check the voltage with a meter
when running and not running so you know if it's just the battery or something
else, but that would indicate the battery.
Went to NAPA today and bought topnotch battery (the same
kind that came in car when new). I did accidentally install
it backwards (neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post),
got some sparks, but the battery is now securely connected.
The lead clamps are pretty clean and don't appear damaged.
But no power whatever, clock dead, nothing.

Ideas?

If you are lucky, you have just blown the fusible links on the battery
lines. More likely you have blown some fuses too. Worst case you've
blown the alternator, ECU, and a bunch of sensors with the reverse polarity
as well.
--scott
 
D

Dave

Eeyore said:
Believe it or not I have once stupidly done the same (just brushed the
terminals
thankfully) but it seems everything was reverse protected.
Yeah, I did it to <sheepish grin> on my Toyota Celica GT about 20 years ago.
In a dimly lit parking garage at K-Mart late one night when I needed a
battery. No damage other than blowing the fuse that controlled my the
motors on my flip-up headlights (although headlights still worked, just
pointed straight down). Flipped it around and the car was A-OK. Did make
some sparks as I recall and I did feel exceedingly stupid for not being more
careful.
 
C

Cleo Frank

Cleo Frank said:
Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean
under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster
at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car,
and cut engine. When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual
click of a dead battery; digital clock very dim etc.

Went to NAPA today and bought topnotch battery (the same
kind that came in car when new). I did accidentally install
it backwards (neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post),
got some sparks, but the battery is now securely connected.
The lead clamps are pretty clean and don't appear damaged.
But no power whatever, clock dead, nothing.

It WAS the main fuse (80 A). The box that contained this thing
was right in front of my eyes practically the whole time, next to
battery ..DUHHHHHH

Car is now its usual chipper self!

THANKS!
 
R

Rodan

"Cleo Frank" wrote: 1990 Mazda Protege

I accidentally connected my new battery backwards
(neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post),
got some sparks. It is now correctly connected,
but no power whatever, clock dead, nothing.
___________________________________________

:

Update (for anyone interested). Problem discovered

It WAS the main fuse (80 A). The box that contained
this thing was right in front of my eyes practically the
whole time, next to battery ..DUHHHHHH

Car is now its usual chipper self! THANKS!
____________________________________________

Those of us who post here always enjoy hearing whether
our advice or opinions helped solve a problem. Thank you
for taking the time to report back.

Rodan.
 
D

Dave

DaveM said:
Nope... The battery clamps are probably OK. There is a chance that the
heavy cable from battery negative to chassis (or engine), or the cable
from battery positive to the starter or starter relay is loose. Check the
connections on the other end of those wires. If they're tight and clean
(not corroded), then they are likely not the problem.
That said, there's a 99.97% chance that you've damaged the car's
electronics (computers). Your ECC (Engine Control Computer) is the guy
that controls almost everything under the hood. If he's dead, then your
car is essentially dead.
Haul or tow the car to a *qualified* service facility for a thorough
diagnosis. If it's the ECC, make sure your Master Card and/or Visa are in
good standing. Judging from your description of events, the car might be
beyond economical repair.

--

Regarding your original problem, as others have suggested, a bad ground (-)
connection at the battery or where the battery cable is bolted to the car's
frame would cause the symptoms you described... intermittent non-starting,
dim instruments. Or a ground fault elsewhere. Ground faults are a bastard
to diagnose, they could be caused by a wire's insulation having rubbed off,
a poor connection, a broken solder joint, corrosion inside a wire's
insulation which can't be seen. I have worked extensively on older cars'
electrical systems, and it takes some serious patience AND LOTS OF TIME
generally. I'm not saying that it definitely won't be a quick fix, just
mentally set yourself up for the long haul. That's why people in the know
shudder when you start talking about an intermittent ground fault problem...
and that's why it's generaly at least a few hundred bucks when you bring
your car to an auto electric specialist.

As far as hooking up the battery backwards, you can get a pretty good
indication of whether it's electronics or wiring by doing some simple tests.
Honk the horn. Turn on the headlights. These are generally both NOT wired
through the ignition module or ECC and should work if the battery is good
and the wiring is intact. If they DO work, that means any fusible link or
main fuse is fine, and that your problem is most likely with your ECC or,
hopefully, a fuse which controls the ECC. You can often buy salvaged ECC's
from online junkyards, you need to be EXTREMELEY SPECIFIC with the model
number... pull yours out and job down the exact model number. Different
models and/or years of the same car have different engines or features that
the ECC controls, so they are very specific to the particular year and model
of vehicle.
 
W

whit3rd

\

Roger, not with the little bitty fuses but something much larger or
piece of wire designed to open with over current.

Yep, the infamous "fusible link" looks just like any other
wire BUT it's a selected length and gage (you DON'T
want to replace it with any other gage of wire!).

And, don't just casually replace the three inches
that burned up. You gotta replace the whole eight inches,
or it will die again, soon. DAMHIKT.
 
R

Ross Herbert

:Background: 1990 Mazda Protege, very well maintained, very clean
:under hood. Last night it started as usual. I drove it to the dumpster
:at the edge of my property to dump some trash, stopped the car,
:and cut engine. When I tried to start it back up, I got the usual
:click of a dead battery; digital clock very dim etc.
:
:Went to NAPA today and bought topnotch battery (the same
:kind that came in car when new). I did accidentally install
:it backwards (neg lead to pos post and pos lead to neg post),
:got some sparks, but the battery is now securely connected.
:The lead clamps are pretty clean and don't appear damaged.
:But no power whatever, clock dead, nothing.
:
:Ideas?
:


See message #3246 (and onwards) here
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ee99794/3237

Bloke did something similar - he connected a battery charger in reverse. Your
car is probably similarly afflicted - ie. blown 100A fuse.
 
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