More VOIP/Digital Voice

[ABLE_1]

Hello All,

Additional input. I was at the customers home yesterday and found the
following.

The wiring for line seizure was completed properly.

The voltage for ON Hook was at 46.28 vdc

The voltage for OFF Hook was at 11.89 vdc

The RING voltage was at 58.5 vac

Even though the ring voltage seems to be lower than was told to me at
60-90vac and much lower than BELL at 95-104vac I think that is a minor
issue.

The other voltages seem to be fine as far a TLM is concerned. So I am going
to be turning that function back on to see what happens.

My assessment at this time is that VoIP/Digital Voice is working for THIS
customer at this time. I will keep you updated as time goes on if something
changes.

Hope this info is found helpful to others.

Have a good day.

Les

 

[tourman]

Your experience with VoIP mirrors my own. With people turning to VoIP
in droves, we have to be able to do something. Whether a particular
VoIP connection works depends very much on the supplier; some suppliers
service works flawlessly, others work intermittently, and a few don't
work at all. And there seems to be no way to tell with any particular
connection until you hook it up and try it to the station.

To give clients service, I have taken to doing the following. Hook it
up and test thoroughly to the station (always using Sia or Contact ID).
Set up daily tests and watch the daily reports carefully for failure to
test. Make sure the customer is aware of the need for back up power
(UPS), and don't do a damn thing until he signs a legal liability
release. Also advise him that we can no longer dial in to the panel for
changes etc, so a visit might be required.

To date, I have about 7 clients on VoIP. They all seem to be working
well, except one, that eventually converted back to Bell. I have far
more clients on Rogers cable phone service, and the restrictions there
are exactly the same (although a cable connection is far better than an
IP connection it seems).

For the moment, there doesn't seem to be any cost effective way to deal
with the matter for residential accounts, since they will not keep
another spearate Bell line in service for their alarm.

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com

 

[tourman]

That's interesting Jim, because Vonage is the one VoIP provider that
doesn't work very well up here. I'm thinking the panels must require
higher ring voltage to "see" the ring coming in and that might be why
the panels don't answer. Bell ring tone is usually over 100 volts;
perhaps the panels need that to detect a ring tone....

I've never tried having the customer force the panel to answer at the
keypad...that might work though

RHC

 

[Jim]

I have Vonage VoIP service, and I am actually able to download many
different panels with minor problems.

Jim Rojas

In my area, Cablevision VoIP is working with Napco panels and (feedback
from others) most other newer panels. I haven't experienced it first
hand, but in my area, Vonage doesn't work reliably. The reason given by
Cablevision (true or not?) is that the allocation of bandwidth for
"their" VoIP is an exclusive amount of bandwidth, set aside especially
for their phone service. When other service companys use their cable,
they are not given access to Cablevisons "exclusive" VoIP bandwidth
and are relagated to a less stable area of the spectrum. Feedback seems
to verify their claim so far. Downloading on Cablevision works most of
the time but sometimes you have to try multiple times before you can
make a good connection. Sometimes multiple "trys" are required to
up/download a section. Definitely more time consuming than Pots.

One of the things that I couldn't have forseen, was that Napco has a
feature that allows you to choose "Touch tone dialing with Rotary back
up" for dialing mode, which I've been programing in my panels for
years. Now I have to change the programing of every panel that converts
to VoIP to "Touch Tone Only" otherwise they'll only get one shot at
reporting.

But, Oh well, it's a service call and I can educate them first hand on
the downside of VoIP and also get a chance to up-sell them on a backup
system

Also, after a bad start on Cablevisions part and thousands of enduser
complaints regarding their ignorance and complete disregard of alarm
communication wiring, we set up a working relationship with Cablevison.
We trained their "trainers" and set them up with demos of lots of older
communicators along with examples and explanations of line seizure and
RJ31X wiring. Every Cablevision VoIP installer goes through the
training and I have to say that after the intial turmoil they caused,
the complaints have dropped to a bear minimum. They're not perfect, but
they're obviously trying hard. Now, when someone calls for a switch to
VoIP, they are asked if they have an alarm system and part of their
installation, is to have the end user send a signal to central after
the switch.

Is anyone having a problem with any particular Manufacturers alarm
panel ?????

..

 

[secure15]

In my area, Cablevision VoIP is working with Napco panels and (feedback
from others) most other newer panels. I haven't experienced it first
hand, but in my area, Vonage doesn't work reliably. The reason given by
Cablevision (true or not?) is that the allocation of bandwidth for
"their" VoIP is an exclusive amount of bandwidth, set aside especially
for their phone service. When other service companys use their cable,
they are not given access to Cablevisons "exclusive" VoIP bandwidth
and are relagated to a less stable area of the spectrum. Feedback seems
to verify their claim so far. Downloading on Cablevision works most of
the time but sometimes you have to try multiple times before you can
make a good connection. Sometimes multiple "trys" are required to
up/download a section. Definitely more time consuming than Pots.

One of the things that I couldn't have forseen, was that Napco has a
feature that allows you to choose "Touch tone dialing with Rotary back
up" for dialing mode, which I've been programing in my panels for
years. Now I have to change the programing of every panel that converts
to VoIP to "Touch Tone Only" otherwise they'll only get one shot at
reporting.

But, Oh well, it's a service call and I can educate them first hand on
the downside of VoIP and also get a chance to up-sell them on a backup
system

Also, after a bad start on Cablevisions part and thousands of enduser
complaints regarding their ignorance and complete disregard of alarm
communication wiring, we set up a working relationship with Cablevison.
We trained their "trainers" and set them up with demos of lots of older
communicators along with examples and explanations of line seizure and
RJ31X wiring. Every Cablevision VoIP installer goes through the
training and I have to say that after the intial turmoil they caused,
the complaints have dropped to a bear minimum. They're not perfect, but
they're obviously trying hard. Now, when someone calls for a switch to
VoIP, they are asked if they have an alarm system and part of their
installation, is to have the end user send a signal to central after
the switch.

Is anyone having a problem with any particular Manufacturers alarm
panel ?????

.

Hi Jim,
Cablevision works great with Napco in Port Jeff Station, but won't work
for shit in Commack (napco too).
Mike

 

[J Barnes]

I just went on a service call today, customer has VoIP and a DSC Power 832.
It will report sometimes and other times it will not. It is using contact
id for its reports. I am going to try 4+2 monday and see if the problem
clears up. If not I will sell him on our AES network.

James B

 

[tourman]

You might want to try SIA on that Power 832. I've had no problems using
that format although I don't have enough in service on VoIP to make any
kind of real statement about anything. However, any reading I have done
seems to indicate if anything's gonna work it will either be Contact ID
or SIA formats.

RHC

 

[Mark Leuck]

You might want to try SIA on that Power 832. I've had no problems using
that format although I don't have enough in service on VoIP to make any
kind of real statement about anything. However, any reading I have done
seems to indicate if anything's gonna work it will either be Contact ID
or SIA formats.

Strange, its been my experience SIA is the most likely to have problems
followed by CID, 4/2 is the most likely to work

 

[J Barnes]

I read an article in a magazine somewhere "I think SDM" that said 4+2 would
be the most likely to work. I guess ill have to try both to see what works.
This is my first experience with VOIP and I dont think I like it. :<(

James

 

[tourman]

Mark, I have one customer who has 4/2 and it works OK. All the six
others, are using SIA or Contact ID. I had two others go back to Bell
because the VoIP connection itself was poor...nothing to do with the
alarm.

I guess this just goes to show how flakey this whole alarms on VoIP
business is when those in the business can't even say between
themselves what works and what doesn't.....

RHC

 

[Doug]

Its VoIP not AoIP, the safest thing to do is to assume that VoIP and
digital communicators are not going to work reliably together at the present
time and probably not in the future either and use an alternative means of
communications. I think that its a disservice to the customer and a
potential liability to the alarmco to try different formats until you find
one that works today, yet may stop tomorrow if and when the VoIP providers
make changes to their service in order to try to improve the voice
transmission.

If , and its a big if, VoIP and alarms systems are to co-exist it will have
to come from the alarm industry designing a product that will work with
VoIP, not the other way around, and it seems unlikley that its worth the
time and effort for a manufacturer to try and hit the every changing target
of VoIP, its much more likely that TCP/IP will be built in to new alarm
panels and very inexpensive TCP/IP modules will become available for
existing panels.


Doug

--

 

[tourman]

Basically right on all counts ! But at the moment, the industry
(translation, you and I) still has to deal with VoIP in some workable
fashion. It's coming on like gangbusters and it's not going away ! Hit
and miss is no real solution as you say; however, you try telling that
to end users who can't (or more likely won't) see the problems as real.

I am hoping services such as www.lobenninc.com and others like that
will be able to solve the problem over the longer term. But if you
can't convince a client to leave a bloody Bell line in for the little
it costs each month, I doubt they'll spring for the $200 or so for the
on site TCPIP unit either. These units will have to be a LOT less
expensive than they are currently if clients are to seriously consider
them. We either try to make it work with all the safeguards we can
muster (ie: daily tests, proper hookup procedures, UPS on all
vulnerable connection devices. limitations of liability, etc) or we
walk away from half a million customers. Back up options such as
Uplink, Tel-a-Link radio etc are certainly viable, but still too costly
for some segments of the market (ie: residential).

I realize I'm playing the devils advocate here, but it's not far off
the reality of the situation ! Might be, we're seeing another offshoot
of the cheapening of the security market by the mass marketers...no one
feels security is worth much.

As I see it, for the next while anyway, the industry is " between a
rock and a hard place"...

RHC

 

[Mark Leuck]

Come to think of it I have yet to see any panel I've worked with be able to
use SIA with VOIP.

 

[Bob La Londe]

For the moment, there doesn't seem to be any cost effective way to deal
with the matter for residential accounts, since they will not keep
another spearate Bell line in service for their alarm.

My CS is currently testing an IP reporting module that will plug in the same
way as a cell backup unit. I was invited to pick up a unit to play with and
beta test, bt the CS is 180 miles away, and I have not had a chance to drive
over and pick one up.

Napco has an IP reporting module as well, that also allows some other
functionality on the 9600 and X255 panels. It just reports alarms on lower
level Napco panels.

 

[alarman]

My CS is currently testing an IP reporting module that will plug in the
same way as a cell backup unit. I was invited to pick up a unit to play
with and beta test, bt the CS is 180 miles away, and I have not had a
chance to drive over and pick one up.

Why not just send them an empty box with foam peanuts and a click'n'ship
label?
js

 

[Mark Leuck]

My CS is currently testing an IP reporting module that will plug in the same
way as a cell backup unit. I was invited to pick up a unit to play with and
beta test, bt the CS is 180 miles away, and I have not had a chance to drive
over and pick one up.

Tela-Link by chance?

Napco has an IP reporting module as well, that also allows some other
functionality on the 9600 and X255 panels. It just reports alarms on lower
level Napco panels.

Yea I've got one connected to a 3200, still trying to get it to work
although the software on the CS end isn't really designed for "industrial"
use

 

[JL]

Well, why didn't you Say So. I'd be happy to Send you one. Did you
fax me the Beta Test Agreement?

I asked a while back if anyone had used a decent Internet Communicator
and never did find one with the simplicity I required. They all have
proprietary receivers and equipment costing thousands for the Central
Station to get started (then the C/S has to get their dealers to
purchase the end-user equipment and hope everyone wants to use it).
I've heard a lot of what everyone here is talking about. This panel or
that works with this provider or that but only with this format or that
and only during certain moon phases. You will never be able to know
the latency induced by the routers down-stream so even if something
works today, odds are it won't work at some point as routers and paths
change. We've seen them work great for a while, then stop working.
We've heard SIA works, sometimes, and CID, sometimes, and 4x2 pulse
formats, usually (but we Hate pulse formats). It always comes down to
latency. Timing is critical to some communicators (and receivers) and
not as critical to others. Older analog receivers are more likely to
accept the less-than-perfect timing and frequency tolerances, where the
digital receivers aren't as forgiving (unless tuned for it, but even
then...). I suspect downloading would only work on very slow baud
rates, again dependent on where you are and where the customer is and
how many routers you need to go through before reaching their unit.

Anyone here is welcome to get one of our BETA Test units. Well, you
must be a real Alarm Installing Company and have a Monitoring Agreement
with us, but then you can try it out. I want to get as many scenarios
as possible tested.

The ASI Communicator utilizes the AES 7067 IntelliTap-II (a UL Listed
device for Alarm Communications) for phone line simulation and
communications (those already using AES IntelliNet products can even
supply your own IntelliTap to save a couple buck). The unit supports
Contact ID and 4x2 Pulse Formats. Just connect Tip and Ring, Power,
and Ethernet and wala. No need to change account number or phone
number in existing panels (Great for Take-Overs). One-click on the
Customer Account via Dealer Web Access allows you to attach your
Internet Communicator to a Customer Account.

The one downfall of my unit is that you can't download the panel
through the communicator. For that you will have to use a T-Link or
AlarmNet-I communicator, but from what I understand they both interface
using the Keypad bus so they won't work for Every panel if you want
full-reporting. We don't have a DSC Internet Receiver but we do accept
AlarmNet-I units. The dealer price for equipment will definitely be
under $200 (I'm pushing for about $150 which includes the IntelliTap).
We are not trying to make money on the equipment, we just want to make
sure you can get your customer Monitored without imposing too much
additional cost on them or installation time for you.

See http://www.azsecurity.com/inetmonitor.php for details and the BETA
Test Agreement. Or call me (Joe) @ 480-756-5423 for ther really hard
questions.

 

[Bob La Londe]

Well, why didn't you Say So. I'd be happy to Send you one. Did you
fax me the Beta Test Agreement?

Is this Joe? I'll fax it in within a week or so. (Been real busy in Mexico
the last few weeks/months.) I didn't bother to send it in since it said
"stop by and pick one up." If you will send me one I'l be glad to throw it
on the office panel and see how it performs for a month or three.

 

[Mark Leuck]

Mark, if I remember right, you said you had been testing a Napco P1664. If
so, what do you think of it?

I just replaced it with a v50 P3200 to test the NET-MOD stuff, the 1664 was
nice although I don't know what purpose it will serve unless they wanted a
cheaper panel with more than the 3200 could do, problem is its not in the
same family and instead just a larger 1632

 

[Mark Leuck]

Well, why didn't you Say So. I'd be happy to Send you one. Did you
fax me the Beta Test Agreement?

I asked a while back if anyone had used a decent Internet Communicator
and never did find one with the simplicity I required. They all have
proprietary receivers and equipment costing thousands for the Central
Station to get started (then the C/S has to get their dealers to
purchase the end-user equipment and hope everyone wants to use it).

If you want simplicity go Honeywell, anything else will require knowing ip
addresses, gateways, DNIS servers etc