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MLCC soldering and dielectric cracking damage

M

Mr.CRC

Hi:

I frequently assemble PCBs by hand soldering MLCCs of the 0603, 0805,
1206, and a few larger ones (and other parts too--as those
capacitor-only circuits aren't much fun!).

My hand soldering technique is to use 0.015" wire solder,
1. first adding a tiny bit of solder to one pad.
2. Then I flux both pads, and tack the part to the pad with the added
solder.
3. Sometimes at this point, I put my tweezers on top of the part to
create a downward force, and reflow the tacked joint to make the part
seat squarely on the pads.
4. Then I solder the other pad-to-part joint.
5. If necessary to make it look nicer, I add flux and reflow the tacked
joint.

The question is this: How much should I worry about thermal stress
cracking or otherwise damaging the MLCC dielectrics?

I have heard that using a pre-heated PCB, and soldering the MLCCs both
joints at once using hot air is the preferred approach, to avoid damage.

Also, that MLCCs with thinner dielectrics are more susceptible, like
high values in small sizes.

Yet in practice, I've never noticed a bad part. Then again, since most
of them are bypass caps, it's hard to notice a bad part.

Any experiences with soldering causing MLCC damage?

How about board flexing? What amount of flex causes trouble? Ordinary
fondling? Assembling CPU coolers onto PC motherboards is always a
treacherous experience! I wonder how many MLCCs survive that experience.
 
J

Joerg

Mr.CRC said:
Hi:

I frequently assemble PCBs by hand soldering MLCCs of the 0603, 0805,
1206, and a few larger ones (and other parts too--as those
capacitor-only circuits aren't much fun!).

My hand soldering technique is to use 0.015" wire solder,
1. first adding a tiny bit of solder to one pad.


Why not soldering the part onto that pads right away? That how I do it.

2. Then I flux both pads, and tack the part to the pad with the added
solder.


I never use extra flux when soldering such SMT parts. The solder I use
it 0.015" Kester 8806 No-Clean, leaded.

3. Sometimes at this point, I put my tweezers on top of the part to
create a downward force, and reflow the tacked joint to make the part
seat squarely on the pads.


Tweezers are metal, can scratch and stress the part. I use a toothpick,
usually. A fresh one :)

4. Then I solder the other pad-to-part joint.
5. If necessary to make it look nicer, I add flux and reflow the tacked
joint.

Suggest to try to practise until they look good without re-fluxing.

The question is this: How much should I worry about thermal stress
cracking or otherwise damaging the MLCC dielectrics?

IME it becomes a concern for packages larger than 1812. This goes for
normal PCB thickness.

I have heard that using a pre-heated PCB, and soldering the MLCCs both
joints at once using hot air is the preferred approach, to avoid damage.

Also, that MLCCs with thinner dielectrics are more susceptible, like
high values in small sizes.

Yet in practice, I've never noticed a bad part. Then again, since most
of them are bypass caps, it's hard to notice a bad part.

Any experiences with soldering causing MLCC damage?

I've seen failed parts but (so far) never on boards I hand-assembled.

How about board flexing? What amount of flex causes trouble? Ordinary
fondling? ...


Fondling? Hey, that can get you in trouble with the laws :)

... Assembling CPU coolers onto PC motherboards is always a
treacherous experience! I wonder how many MLCCs survive that experience.

That one I don't understand. How can such coolers stress the caps?
 
Q

qrk

Hi:

I frequently assemble PCBs by hand soldering MLCCs of the 0603, 0805,
1206, and a few larger ones (and other parts too--as those
capacitor-only circuits aren't much fun!).

My hand soldering technique is to use 0.015" wire solder,
1. first adding a tiny bit of solder to one pad.
2. Then I flux both pads, and tack the part to the pad with the added
solder.
3. Sometimes at this point, I put my tweezers on top of the part to
create a downward force, and reflow the tacked joint to make the part
seat squarely on the pads.
4. Then I solder the other pad-to-part joint.
5. If necessary to make it look nicer, I add flux and reflow the tacked
joint.

The question is this: How much should I worry about thermal stress
cracking or otherwise damaging the MLCC dielectrics?

I have heard that using a pre-heated PCB, and soldering the MLCCs both
joints at once using hot air is the preferred approach, to avoid damage.

Also, that MLCCs with thinner dielectrics are more susceptible, like
high values in small sizes.

Yet in practice, I've never noticed a bad part. Then again, since most
of them are bypass caps, it's hard to notice a bad part.

Any experiences with soldering causing MLCC damage?

How about board flexing? What amount of flex causes trouble? Ordinary
fondling? Assembling CPU coolers onto PC motherboards is always a
treacherous experience! I wonder how many MLCCs survive that experience.

The literature sure says it's not good to hand solder MLCC parts.
However, I haven't had any problems with sizes from 0402 to 1812. We
use Metcal soldering irons which can be used with lower temp tips than
ordinary irons since the tip is induction heated. 0.010" diameter
solder is the way to go for 0402 parts. I don't use flux as it isn't
necessary for these parts. I have seen problems with cracked caps due
to them being too close to the edge of the board (depaneling issues)
and bad profiles on an assembly line.
 
V

VioletaPachydermata

Hi:

I frequently assemble PCBs by hand soldering MLCCs of the 0603, 0805,
1206, and a few larger ones (and other parts too--as those
capacitor-only circuits aren't much fun!).

The whole key is temperature soakings and keeping them and their degree
to a minimum. ANY reflowing of chip caps detaches end terminations and
the chip may read correctly but not perform to spec or even fail in use.

My hand soldering technique is to use 0.015" wire solder,
1. first adding a tiny bit of solder to one pad.

The tinier the better, but you must be able to hit the bead with the
chip in place, *without* hitting the chip with the iron.
2. Then I flux both pads, and tack the part to the pad with the added
solder.

Only reflow the bead long enough to seat the part square and flat and
allow seizure. Reflux that pad, and then solder the OTHER pad first,very
quickly, only adding heat to the PCB pad, not the chip termination 'end
cap' (of whatever variety). Never go back to that pad again. It is done.
Now solder the other pad to the right fillet size to match the first.
Never reflow either pad. The key is to add no further heat OR thermal
stress to the part internals or the solder terminations. That heat
transfers directly into the chip. These failure modes are very easy to
illustrate with HV caps (MLCCs) They read correct and act correct at low
voltage after thermal damage, but at higher operating voltages, they fail
from end termination detachment issues.
3. Sometimes at this point, I put my tweezers on top of the part to
create a downward force,

It must be VERY light force, and the tweezer "noses" must form a flat,
NOT pointed face to press on the chip with, or you can introduce tiny
micro-fractures in the chips.
and reflow the tacked joint to make the part
seat squarely on the pads.

your first bead should be so tiny that you can place it out of the way
of the squarely placed part, so that when you reflow that tiny bead, it
and the flux and the capillary attraction will lock it down. Only add
heat for the 'moment' of that reflow act, and avoid contact with the
actual terminations of the chips themselves. You are making it tack
down, not be integral yet, so add no more heat than needed to perform
that function. Heat kills chips.
4. Then I solder the other pad-to-part joint.

That is the correct process step order.
5. If necessary to make it look nicer, I add flux and reflow the tacked
joint.

if the tack is small enough, it *should* be your second joint anyway,
just to make the proper electrical connection. The 'tacking' process step
should have been minimal in both solder and the heat infused to do it.
The question is this: How much should I worry about thermal stress
cracking or otherwise damaging the MLCC dielectrics?

A lot. That is why you take serious steps to develop and follow a strict
process like that which I iterated to you. You may want to differ from
what I gave you, but that is your choice. The killer is heat. Theprocess
is where it gets introduced. One solder joint construction flow (for
effect) is all these chips should be subjected to (there is a severe
shock). They are meant for automated processes where the temp
differential at reflow time is a mere 20 or 40 degrees and the
terminations do not flex to their breakage point.

So, a hot air reflow (done quickly) with solder paste is an option as
well, but adjacent peripheral components get heated as well.

For hand assembly, short of preheating the board to a couple hundred
degrees and the chips in a hot pot... if you are soldering them cold, as
it were, the shock *will* be severe, so you have to perform the ops very
quickly and only once, if possible.
I have heard that using a pre-heated PCB, and soldering the MLCCs both
joints at once using hot air is the preferred approach, to avoid damage.

Yes, but do NOT try to do "both joints at once" using soldering irons.
You are actually doing the exact thing you do NOT want to do at that
point.
Also, that MLCCs with thinner dielectrics are more susceptible, like
high values in small sizes.

It took them many years to be able to even make them. Pretty likely
that they are easier to break or cause to shift from stated specs.
Yet in practice, I've never noticed a bad part.

ceramic caps always appear fine on metrological inspection.

"At voltage" is when it counts though. HV caps MUST be "good". When a
multiplier cap in an HV circuit fails, one typically replaces all of them
because the time savings is cheaper than trying to find which "good
reading" cap is "really bad".
Then again, since most
of them are bypass caps, it's hard to notice a bad part.

Unless they cause a problem in that location.
Any experiences with soldering causing MLCC damage?

MLCC damage is usually from soldering. If you strike and break one from
physical contact, it has nothing to do with a normal electronic industry
process. It was some dumb dope who should learn some material handling
practices before he (or she) handles delicate components again.
How about board flexing?

Solder joint physics area different animal. Depends on the pad/fillet
shape, and the type of terminations the part you buy has.
What amount of flex causes trouble?

If your post process assemblies are warped, you have a process issue
other than broken terminations when a stupid tech or manager flexes a
warped, solid board back toward its proper design shape. He needs to
learn some physics. They need to be held FLAT while they are still hot,
all the way until they cool, and if they are still warping, then the PCB
maker has induced it in their MFG process and it needs to be addresses
even further upstream.

Ordinary
fondling?

If you grab a board and flex the fucking thing, you lack knowledge and
experience about soldering, solder creep, and PCB assembly practices.
If it is warped, it is a failure, if it does not fit form fit and
function *WITHOUT* attempting to "undo" the flexure and warpage.

That is so decidedly NOT "ordinary", by any measure. In some circles,
you would be looking for a new position.
Assembling CPU coolers onto PC motherboards is always a
treacherous experience!

Not really. Could be an aptitude thing.
I wonder how many MLCCs survive that experience.

Do you walk down the aisle of a crowded train car, shoving folks out of
your way with your elbows as you tromp toward the exit door?

You one of those asshole dock workers that/who toss packages full of
electronic devices up on the dock because they are too dumb to understand
what the term FRAGILE means?

You do not assemble electronic assemblies with FORD tools, idiot. In
this case that references your brain. You MUST be a Ford owner! You
sport a Ford owner mentality!
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

That one I don't understand. How can such coolers stress the caps?

--

Learn to read idiot. It is the act of ASSEMBLING CPU coolers onto PC
motherboards that this guy does wrong, and you fail to discern. He is
obviously striking then physically somehow. Your diagnostic capacity is
like nil.
 
T

TheGlimmerMan

That can tiddly-wink them into neverland. I grab them with the
tweezers.


All OK, except that I don't bother with extra flux. If I sometimes
wind up with a big ball of solder on one end, I just wick a little of
it away.

That is a thermal no no. You should apply the right amount or LESS,
never so damned much that you have to remove some.
Not much. Surface mount ceramic caps are, well, made of ceramic.

No shit, dip tracy.
They
are tough.

You are an idiot. The ends are terminated to the termination platings
precariously at best. Thermal shocks cause detachments, and most of
those cannot be detected with simple test instruments.
We often put a few bypass caps on the bottom of a board, like around
an FPGA when the top is solid traces and there's no room up there. If
there are a modest number of them, manufacturing adds them by hand.
I've replaced zillions of ceramic caps myself, debugging boards. No
problems.

Is that you method of "debugging boards"? It is a wonder any of your
crap ever worked long enough to get sold.
Overkill.

You're an idiot. You being allowed to live way back when you should
have been flushed was underkill.
Most ceramic surfmount caps are about 20 mils thick. Some exotics may
be different.
U-be-dumb.

If you are too rough removing one, you can rip the end cap. Any
reasonable soldering method seems fine.

With seems being the key term to take note of. Good job, Johnny. Good
job of showing folks your near nil grasp of the subject.
Not in my experience.

He asked for a quantity, not a yea nay, ya dopey ditz.
 
T

TheGlimmerMan

Our field failure rates are healthy multiples of Bellcore
calculations. Ceramic cap failures are rare.

None of your production boards are hand soldered, you retarded twit.

This discussion is about the damage which can occur within the
terminations of MLCCs when attached manually, which you are 100% clueless
about... obviously.
 
S

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

I usually do, but he said some silly stuff about soldering caps.

John

What I said is exactly the same thing the manufacturers will tell you.
And I DID say that observation of such a part will appear to show no
difference, which is also what the makers will tell you.

You are the silly one, john. I spoke about real physical attributes of
the devices. You belched bullshit based on your personal build stats,
which are based on zero true observance of any such condition.

In other words Johnny, you were then are now, were then, and always
have been too fucking dumb to know that it happens, much less why.
 
The work enviroments I've been in I've always hand soldered SMD parts mainly
for prototypes but also some low vol production. Never had a problem (thats
not to say that will always be the case!)

Repair, and debug, also.

What do you expect from AlwaysWrong?
 
J

Joerg

I believe it is the standard intel cooler, it looks similar but
instead of
screws and a bracket it has four snap in plastic things

like this:

Ouch! I don't think I'd want to buy a PC with such a motherboard.
Judging from the groans of the guy the installation must require quite
some force.

I like this text under the video: "avec installation du heatsink". Oh,
if the French language police would ever see that :)
 
J

Joerg

[...]

Ouch! I don't think I'd want to buy a PC with such a motherboard.
Judging from the groans of the guy the installation must require quite
some force.

yep and because they are either in or out you cannot do like with
screws
and tighten them slowly in criss cross pattern

When I see technically inferior "solutions" such as this I have no
qualms taking the angle grinder to it. Whirrrrr ... zzzzrrring ...
thwack ... gone. Then I'd relace them with screws.

[...]
 
T

TheGlimmerMan

Repair, and debug, also.

What do you expect from AlwaysWrong?

Of all the discreet parts one can solder onto a board, the MLCC part
has the greatest susceptibility to have its 'manufactured as' value get
floated by a thermal shock to some unknown value. It makes no difference
that your fucking assembly still worked.

Not only are you too dumb to know that the thermal shock alters the
part, but you are too dumb (obviously) to know why, and far too dumb to
ever be able to detect it or make any sort of valid rebuttal.

All you mealy mouthed twits can do is meaningless bird chatter.

The bacteria in my ass chad has more on the ball than all you fucktards
put together.
 
M

Mr.CRC

VioletaPachydermata said:
The whole key is temperature soakings and keeping them and their degree
to a minimum. ANY reflowing of chip caps detaches end terminations and
the chip may read correctly but not perform to spec or even fail in use.



The tinier the better, but you must be able to hit the bead with the
chip in place, *without* hitting the chip with the iron.


Only reflow the bead long enough to seat the part square and flat and
allow seizure. Reflux that pad, and then solder the OTHER pad first,very
quickly, only adding heat to the PCB pad, not the chip termination 'end
cap' (of whatever variety). Never go back to that pad again. It is done.
Now solder the other pad to the right fillet size to match the first.
Never reflow either pad. The key is to add no further heat OR thermal
stress to the part internals or the solder terminations. That heat
transfers directly into the chip. These failure modes are very easy to
illustrate with HV caps (MLCCs) They read correct and act correct at low
voltage after thermal damage, but at higher operating voltages, they fail
from end termination detachment issues.


It must be VERY light force, and the tweezer "noses" must form a flat,
NOT pointed face to press on the chip with, or you can introduce tiny
micro-fractures in the chips.


your first bead should be so tiny that you can place it out of the way
of the squarely placed part, so that when you reflow that tiny bead, it
and the flux and the capillary attraction will lock it down. Only add
heat for the 'moment' of that reflow act, and avoid contact with the
actual terminations of the chips themselves. You are making it tack
down, not be integral yet, so add no more heat than needed to perform
that function. Heat kills chips.


That is the correct process step order.


if the tack is small enough, it *should* be your second joint anyway,
just to make the proper electrical connection. The 'tacking' process step
should have been minimal in both solder and the heat infused to do it.


A lot. That is why you take serious steps to develop and follow a strict
process like that which I iterated to you. You may want to differ from
what I gave you, but that is your choice. The killer is heat. Theprocess
is where it gets introduced. One solder joint construction flow (for
effect) is all these chips should be subjected to (there is a severe
shock). They are meant for automated processes where the temp
differential at reflow time is a mere 20 or 40 degrees and the
terminations do not flex to their breakage point.

So, a hot air reflow (done quickly) with solder paste is an option as
well, but adjacent peripheral components get heated as well.

For hand assembly, short of preheating the board to a couple hundred
degrees and the chips in a hot pot... if you are soldering them cold, as
it were, the shock *will* be severe, so you have to perform the ops very
quickly and only once, if possible.

Yes, but do NOT try to do "both joints at once" using soldering irons.
You are actually doing the exact thing you do NOT want to do at that
point.


It took them many years to be able to even make them. Pretty likely
that they are easier to break or cause to shift from stated specs.


ceramic caps always appear fine on metrological inspection.

"At voltage" is when it counts though. HV caps MUST be "good". When a
multiplier cap in an HV circuit fails, one typically replaces all of them
because the time savings is cheaper than trying to find which "good
reading" cap is "really bad".


Unless they cause a problem in that location.


MLCC damage is usually from soldering. If you strike and break one from
physical contact, it has nothing to do with a normal electronic industry
process. It was some dumb dope who should learn some material handling
practices before he (or she) handles delicate components again.


Solder joint physics area different animal. Depends on the pad/fillet
shape, and the type of terminations the part you buy has.


If your post process assemblies are warped, you have a process issue
other than broken terminations when a stupid tech or manager flexes a
warped, solid board back toward its proper design shape. He needs to
learn some physics. They need to be held FLAT while they are still hot,
all the way until they cool, and if they are still warping, then the PCB
maker has induced it in their MFG process and it needs to be addresses
even further upstream.

Well so far, that was a lot of interesting input.
If you grab a board and flex the fucking thing, you lack knowledge and
experience about soldering, solder creep, and PCB assembly practices.
If it is warped, it is a failure, if it does not fit form fit and
function *WITHOUT* attempting to "undo" the flexure and warpage.

That is so decidedly NOT "ordinary", by any measure. In some circles,
you would be looking for a new position.


Not really. Could be an aptitude thing.


Do you walk down the aisle of a crowded train car, shoving folks out of
your way with your elbows as you tromp toward the exit door?

You one of those asshole dock workers that/who toss packages full of
electronic devices up on the dock because they are too dumb to understand
what the term FRAGILE means?

You do not assemble electronic assemblies with FORD tools, idiot. In
this case that references your brain. You MUST be a Ford owner! You
sport a Ford owner mentality!

Then you really went off the rails!
 
M

Mr.CRC

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt said:
Learn to read idiot. It is the act of ASSEMBLING CPU coolers onto PC
motherboards that this guy does wrong, and you fail to discern. He is
obviously striking then physically somehow. Your diagnostic capacity is
like nil.


No, "he" doesn't strike anything. Look at [email protected]'s response
above. That person understands.
 
M

Mr.CRC

MK said:
I use a very similar technique (to Jon's) with pointy stainless steel
tweezers and I'll do parts down to 0402. Over the last 10 years I have
put down between 5000 to 10000 capacitors an have temperature cycled
many of the boards. I have never seen a short circuit cap (since I guess
about 50% of caps are decoupling I might have missed some open circuits).
Recently I've done quite a few bigger ceramic caps like 22uF 16V in 1210
or 1206 packages - these are about 2mm thick but I've seen no problems.
I only do prototypes and very small runs (like perhaps 4 boards) like this.
The suggestion that you can solder an 0603 part touching only the pad
and not the parts sounds like boards with very large pads or theory not
yet contaminated by contact with reality.

Michael Kellett

I design my pads for hand soldering, usually with a minimum 0.016"
excess on each side beyond the max part dim. For larger parts, it
scales according to the vertical lead thickness.
 
J

JW

Probably another retarded Ford owner.

You know... it suddenly occurred to me that you have a personality that
only a cadaver could love. This, no doubt, explains why you count so many
of them amongst your sexual conquests.
 
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