Maybe the US government can do something about fake electronic parts

[Trevor Wilson]

Maybe, but I doubt it.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/fake-chinese-weapons-costs-us-millions-20111110-1n83t.html

 

[John Tserkezis]

Maybe, but I doubt it.
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/fake-chinese-weapons-costs-us-millions-20111110-1n83t.html

It has nothing to do with the US.

There are reputable manufacturers, and some not-so-reputable.

YOUR suppliers are buying crap from the slightly less than above board
manufacturers.
THAT'S why crap appears on your shelf.

The way to fix it is to put your boot into your supplier's arse and
say stop buying from the cheapest possible supplier. Oh, and don't
whine about how much it all costs "now".

Alternative is to source yourself.
And cut your losses when you find your new super-low-cost supplier
pushes out those new-fangled mild steel semiconductors that don't work.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

It has nothing to do with the US.

There are reputable manufacturers, and some not-so-reputable.

**Of course. Many of us have been hit by dodgy semis over the years. For
this reason, I buy mission critical stuff from Element 14 or RS. I NEVER
buy semis from Jaycar. My point is that the scourge has now reached an
organisation which would normally be expected to source only from
premium suppliers. It could result in an industry-wide shake-up. Or not.

YOUR suppliers are buying crap from the slightly less than above board
manufacturers.
THAT'S why crap appears on your shelf.

**Of course.

The way to fix it is to put your boot into your supplier's arse and say
stop buying from the cheapest possible supplier. Oh, and don't whine
about how much it all costs "now".

**Yeah, I've done that in the past. Nothing happens. My last experience
was with WES. About 15 years ago, WES marketed two types of fancy
RCA-RCA leads. Both used gold plated connectors and looked nice, so they
were easy to install into customer's system. The cheaper of the leads
(about $4.00) was absolute crap. Internal construction was VERY tin
conductors, a single layer of braid shielding and PVC insulation. I
found them to be quite unreliable and fragile. The more expensive lead,
looked nicer, with a larger diameter overall, PE insulation and decently
sized conductors, with foil and braid sheilding. Wire termination was
also superior to the cheap cables. I used it for more than a decade and
a half with zero call-backs. Absolutely reliable, but the cost was about
$8.00. Acceptable, given the reliability.

Right up until last year. I installed the cables into a client's system
and was called back within a few weeks. I found that one of the leads
was faulty. Surprised, I replaced the leads and headed back to the
workshop. A little confused, I stripped the cable and noticed that the
manufacturer had used the old, cheap leads, but covered them in a thick
sheath, to make them look more expensive.

I fronted the boss of WES with my problem and explained that he needed
to address the issue. I was offered a refund for the dodgy cable (BFD:
$8.00), but not my labour and travelling time (I had to return to
replace ALL the leads in the system, since I didn't trust the ones WES
sold me).

I now ONLY purchase leads where the RCA connectors can be unscrewed, so
the cable can be examined. The cost is a little higher, but I don't have
to waste time on return visits.

Anyway, WES have done nothing about their crap leads.

Alternative is to source yourself.
And cut your losses when you find your new super-low-cost supplier
pushes out those new-fangled mild steel semiconductors that don't work.

**Like I said: I am pretty careful about where I source semis nowadays
and have been ever since PA alerted people to the issue.

 

[[email protected]]

Probably be a good thing, it might save countless civilian lives if
this crap fails in US military systems.
Bodgy crap equipment certainly demoralised the soviet military, so it
might do the same here.

OK, I had an "Intersect moment" there.

A few years back I lived in NY. At one point met an engineer that worked
for a company that made -- among very many other things -- jet engine
controllers. The same company may be associated with clock toasters that
have a tendency to burst into flames, and maybe an association TV show
written by Tina Fey. But I forgot the name.

Anyway, the guy told me he was worried about work. At some point he'd noticed
some funny goings-on at the plant that tested the controllers.
E.g. there was a big mil-mandated protocol to test the things in climate
chambers that could sim any alti to 60,000 ft, and run over a temp
range from some big -ve Celcuis to some big +ve temp. The protocol said
if there was any failuer during the range of conditions the whole test
had to be reset to the start, the device removed, the chamber rested,
and the test re-started. Only if the controller passed so many hrs
without failure could it be stamped "ok" and allowed to ship out of the plant.

But, said the engineer, he'd noticed some people had been just letting
the test run to completion regardless of whether any fault showed up or not.
Further, people had been signing parts out of the plant at times-of-day
where there was theoretically no-one on duty. And there seemed to be special
seals missing from a cabinet. The seals and a special tool to close them
were needed to close up the box for any controller that was marked "ok"
before it was shipped.

There were a few other irregularities, most of which I forget.

Anyway, the guy had gone to his supervisor with some of the queries
and asked what was going on. "Streamlining" was the gist of the reply.
Since these contollers went on military aircraft and the engineer had
some past association with the military (a lot of people in upstate NY
have people in the reserves and it was around Iraq I time) the engieer
complained that faulty testing put people's lives at risk.

The supervisor told him not to worry -- it was for the military and
military pilots knew all about risk.

--
[Relax -- it's not "global" warming; it's just "ocean" warming!]
QUOTE: Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has
occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather
than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases over land.
-- BONZO@27-32-240-172 [daily nymshifter], 14 Dec 2010 10:35 +1100

 

[John Tserkezis]

Anyway, WES have done nothing about their crap leads.

And they won't.

My last dealing with them was when we did a smallish purchase to stock
up our bits bins.

Of what we ordered, they had sent a bunch of caps and resistors extra,
and some missing from the order. The delivery sheet didn't signify
anything out of the ordinary, so I got our secretary to handle the
returns and corrections. (it had happened before to due to minor human
error a couple of times, so no biggie there).

A little later when she had called them, she called me over saying she
couldn't understand what they were saying, which was a little odd in
itself, because she had done this sort of thing before several times in
the past, and knew what was involved.

So I talk to them, and I kinda gathered why she got confused:

Straight from the horses' mouth at WES, "It is company policy, that if
we do not have a particular part in stock, or is not available, we
supply the next closest value". And yep, we were talking about
resistors and capacitors.

How do you deal with a fuckup of this scale?

I mean, it was easy enough to deal with returns, but how about trying
to prevent future fuckups when the causes are so deeply and widely
rooted in the company, where the only real "fix" is to nuke from orbit
and start again from scratch?
A simple chat to the boss along the lines of "get your people into
line" isn't going to cut it.

 

[John Tserkezis]

The supervisor told him not to worry -- it was for the military and
military pilots knew all about risk.

Karma gets these nuts soon enough. Usually via a toaster that had
some particular sticker on it, performed by a staffer who didn't work
there anymore, for no other reason than that sticker is double checked
by someone else who was on his last day, full of beer and cake and
really had no incentive to even scratch his own arse.

Then, said supervisor will get a quick and nasty course of risk
assessment slap him in the face. But that's OK, he knows all about
risk, he manages it every day.

 

[swanny]

...

Probably be a good thing, it might save countless civilian lives if
this crap fails in US military systems.
Bodgy crap equipment certainly demoralised the soviet military, so it
might do the same here.

OK, I had an "Intersect moment" there.

A few years back I lived in NY. At one point met an engineer that worked
for a company that made -- among very many other things -- jet engine
controllers. The same company may be associated with clock toasters that
have a tendency to burst into flames, and maybe an association TV show
written by Tina Fey. But I forgot the name.

Anyway, the guy told me he was worried about work. At some point he'd noticed
some funny goings-on at the plant that tested the controllers.
E.g. there was a big mil-mandated protocol to test the things in climate
chambers that could sim any alti to 60,000 ft, and run over a temp
range from some big -ve Celcuis to some big +ve temp. The protocol said
if there was any failuer during the range of conditions the whole test
had to be reset to the start, the device removed, the chamber rested,
and the test re-started. Only if the controller passed so many hrs
without failure could it be stamped "ok" and allowed to ship out of the plant.

But, said the engineer, he'd noticed some people had been just letting
the test run to completion regardless of whether any fault showed up or not.
Further, people had been signing parts out of the plant at times-of-day
where there was theoretically no-one on duty. And there seemed to be special
seals missing from a cabinet. The seals and a special tool to close them
were needed to close up the box for any controller that was marked "ok"
before it was shipped.

There were a few other irregularities, most of which I forget.

Anyway, the guy had gone to his supervisor with some of the queries
and asked what was going on. "Streamlining" was the gist of the reply.
Since these contollers went on military aircraft and the engineer had
some past association with the military (a lot of people in upstate NY
have people in the reserves and it was around Iraq I time) the engieer
complained that faulty testing put people's lives at risk.

The supervisor told him not to worry -- it was for the military and
military pilots knew all about risk.

--
[Relax -- it's not "global" warming; it's just "ocean" warming!]
QUOTE: Evidence is presented that the recent worldwide land warming has
occurred largely in response to a worldwide warming of the oceans rather
than as a direct response to increasing greenhouse gases over land.
-- BONZO@27-32-240-172 [daily nymshifter], 14 Dec 2010 10:35 +1100

I recall some years back there were similar problems with
"counterfeit" nuts, bolts, etc that were being used in military
aircraft. They would look and be marked identically to the "real" item
but would not be made with the same high grade of material needed in
that particular specification.

I wouldnt be surprised if a lot in these scams, the military /
government officials were involved, and getting kickbacks from these
scams.

Also there is the massive profit to be made on replacement aircraft
for those that crash.

For the real conspiracy theorists, it could be that the Chinese
Government are sanctioning the flooding of Western markets with poor
quality counterfeits so as to cause all kinds of disruptions.

 

[Jasen Betts]

Maybe, but I doubt it.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/fake-chinese-weapons-costs-us-millions-20111110-1n83t.html

They might have to stop buying from China.

 

[shrtrnd]

A lot of the parts coming out of China are salvaged from U.S. boards that were sold as scrap. They salvage the parts, clean them up & remark them, turn around and sell them back to the U.S.
Businesses in the U.S. go 'low bid'.
What the Chinese don't get in scrap, they make cheap copies of to the fill demand.
It's like the drug trade, they're filling the demand.
If you play either game, you deserve to get burned.
Complain all you want about being victimized by some company saving money, they'll
keep buying cheap stuff as long as you buy their products. And the druggies will keep breaking into your cars and houses to buy drugs, even though some people think dopers are making a 'personal choice' and should be left alone.
Both will keep happening, because nobody's serious about a solution.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Wilson"

**Like I said: I am pretty careful about where I source semis nowadays and
have been ever since PA alerted people to the issue.

** PA = me, right ?

So when do you recall I first alerted people ?

And where ?



.... Phil

 

[Trevor Wilson]

"Trevor Wilson"



** PA = me, right ?
**Correct.


So when do you recall I first alerted people ?

**If I had to guess, about 20 years ago. Give or take.

And where ?

**Buggered if I can recall. I only know that I first learned of the scam
from you.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

Maybe, but I doubt it.

What surprises me about that article is not that the Chinese are
supplying fakes, but that the Americans are putting ANY Chinese made
stuff in their own weapons systems.

- Franc Zabkar

 

[John Tserkezis]

What surprises me about that article is not that the Chinese are
supplying fakes, but that the Americans are putting ANY Chinese made
stuff in their own weapons systems.

<http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/10/0212/semiconductors.html>

"As of 2009, the percentage of global semiconductor production capacity
located in the United States was 14 percent, down from 25 percent in
2005 and 17 percent in 2007. Japan has the highest share of global
capacity (at 25 percent), followed by Taiwan (18 percent, up from 11
percent in 2001), Korea (17 percent, up from 11 percent in 2001), Europe
and the Middle East (11 percent), China (9 percent, up from 2 percent in
2001) and Southeast Asia (6 percent)."

Pay especial attention to the growths in Taiwan, Korea and China.

Let me know how you like things in several years' time...

 

[Krypsis]

<http://www.manufacturingnews.com/news/10/0212/semiconductors.html>

"As of 2009, the percentage of global semiconductor production capacity
located in the United States was 14 percent, down from 25 percent in
2005 and 17 percent in 2007. Japan has the highest share of global
capacity (at 25 percent), followed by Taiwan (18 percent, up from 11
percent in 2001), Korea (17 percent, up from 11 percent in 2001), Europe
and the Middle East (11 percent), China (9 percent, up from 2 percent in
2001) and Southeast Asia (6 percent)."

Pay especial attention to the growths in Taiwan, Korea and China.

Let me know how you like things in several years' time...

Is that when the US will be ranked economically below countries like
Bangladesh? No doubt wages in the US will have fallen to Bangladeshi
levels by then as well.

 

[terryc]

Is that when the US will be ranked economically below countries like
Bangladesh? No doubt wages in the US will have fallen to Bangladeshi
levels by then as well.

Umm, it was "US" companies that moved production to these countries in
the first place.