J
John Larkin
Thanks, Rebecca. My purchasing people will be in direct contact.
John
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Maxim IC frustration - hard to find components
- Thread starter [email protected]
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Thanks, Rebecca. My purchasing people will be in direct contact.
John
J
John Woodgate
dated Tue said:
Don't embarrass Rebecca by asking questions you know won't be answered.
That could result in this channel, which is an unusual venture and was
probably authorised at a high level in Maxim, being closed. We can hope
that internal training of order-takers will be improved, now that the
situation has been highlighted.
J
Joerg
Hello John,
It was more of a rhetoric question. Meaning that I believe it's high
time for some employee training at Maxim. Plus possibly a new enterprise
network in case it turns out that they just could not get at that
information.
I can only applaud folks like Rebecca who venture out into a "lion's
den" consisting mostly of unhappy customers. It would be good for Maxim
to keep this up and also monitor groups like this one. There are a lot
of people here who make de-facto decisions worth millions in sales for
semi mfgs.
On a side note, after I bought the first edition Mitsubishi Montero
Sport a "clandestine" web site popped up. There, people could log
complaints, make suggestions and Mitsubishi engineers would listen. IIRC
it was shut down per ordere de mufti pretty soon. However, lots of those
very suggestions miraculously made it into the next model.
It was more of a rhetoric question. Meaning that I believe it's high
time for some employee training at Maxim. Plus possibly a new enterprise
network in case it turns out that they just could not get at that
information.
I can only applaud folks like Rebecca who venture out into a "lion's
den" consisting mostly of unhappy customers. It would be good for Maxim
to keep this up and also monitor groups like this one. There are a lot
of people here who make de-facto decisions worth millions in sales for
semi mfgs.
On a side note, after I bought the first edition Mitsubishi Montero
Sport a "clandestine" web site popped up. There, people could log
complaints, make suggestions and Mitsubishi engineers would listen. IIRC
it was shut down per ordere de mufti pretty soon. However, lots of those
very suggestions miraculously made it into the next model.
R
Rebecca of Maxim Dallas
John said:
John,
Thank you for your concern, but I am happy to answer Joerg's
question. I do not know why John's initial contact to Maxim did not
lead to the locating of these parts. I can tell you that I did not do
anything extraordinary to locate these parts. They do require a formal
quote be submitted, but if any customer were to submit a quote on our
website while these units remain in stock, they would also be told that
we have these parts available. As I stated very early on, often
customers call and ask for the part they want, and we do not realize
that they are desperate and that we should look for alternatives for
them. Often the lead time quoted (as long as it may be) is suitable
for the customer's production schedule. We cannot assume they need
us to look for an alternative that is available sooner. I do not
pretend that we are without fault. It is very possible that John's
purchasing department called and asked to expedite, and that the sales
person they spoke with only tried to expedite the part on order, and
did not look for alternatives. That would be disappointing, as it is
our policy to offer alternatives.
Thank you.
Rebecca
E
Eeyore
Joerg said:
I agree entirely with your sentiments Joerg.
In addition, it never fails to amaze me how companies fail to use information
that's readily available to them. I've recenly been having trouble with my
broadband connection which the ISP transferred to another 'network supplier'.
Cutting a long story short in a couple of days I'm going to another ISP, but
somewhat crazily their own plusnet.xxxx newsgroups aren't even formally
monitored - even the feedback one, except for a few dedicated mebers of staff
who seem to check it out *in their spare time*. Jeez !
Graham
R
Rebecca of Maxim Dallas
Joerg,
You may or may not be correct that John's company not locating parts
was a sales training issue. What I can tell you with 100% certainty is
that we do value all customers, big and small, and it is our goal to
meet all of our customer's needs. I realize that many people reading
this will be rolling their eyes now. As a Maxim/Dallas employee I may
be biased, but it is the truth. As I mentioned before, we created MDD
so that customers would be able to deal directly with the manufacturer,
with the expectation that we would provide better service as
specialists who have a vested interest in meeting customer demands. We
don't handle 10, 20 or 50 product lines. We handle Maxim and Dallas.
We have direct relationships with the people responsible for getting
these parts into inventory to ship to our customer's orders.
Honestly, my purpose here is not just to act as damage control as
someone previously stated. And although this posting may be misleading
I am also not here for free advertising of MDD. I am here to solve any
problems I can, and in the process I hope I can advise people/companies
about who they can call for help with a Maxim or Dallas part. We are
not perfect but we do care.
Sincerely,
Rebecca Graves
Supervisor
Maxim/Dallas Direct!
J
Joerg
Hello Rebecca,
Allow me to ask: Why does it require a formal quote just to find out
whether there are enough in stock? Why doesn't Maxim just list that?
The reason is that a design process progresses very fast these days.
While doing the schematic on one PC the other usually runs the Digikey
site or in case of specialty parts we enter the mfg's site. A few clicks
and there is the stock situation. If zero stock we often move right on
to another part because this indicates problems. Quite frankly, the old
"call distributor" or "contact manufacturer" path doesn't work anymore.
That concept is archaic and pretty much died in the early 90's. Clinging
to this old hat is one of the reasons why many European semi mfgs are
not doing very well these days. They don't seem to understand.
Example: I needed a FET and one from Europe was a perfect fit. It took
me a solid two hours on the phone over several days and finally I had to
ditch it. A lost design-in that this mfgs now isn't even aware of.
Another matter is leadtime. When I clicked on the MAX5204AEUB the
leadtimes state "TDB". That is a big red flag for most seasoned design
engineers. Maybe you could talk to your executives that it would benefit
the company if the system was a bit more open. I can't see any reason
why it shouldn't be.
Allow me to ask: Why does it require a formal quote just to find out
whether there are enough in stock? Why doesn't Maxim just list that?
The reason is that a design process progresses very fast these days.
While doing the schematic on one PC the other usually runs the Digikey
site or in case of specialty parts we enter the mfg's site. A few clicks
and there is the stock situation. If zero stock we often move right on
to another part because this indicates problems. Quite frankly, the old
"call distributor" or "contact manufacturer" path doesn't work anymore.
That concept is archaic and pretty much died in the early 90's. Clinging
to this old hat is one of the reasons why many European semi mfgs are
not doing very well these days. They don't seem to understand.
Example: I needed a FET and one from Europe was a perfect fit. It took
me a solid two hours on the phone over several days and finally I had to
ditch it. A lost design-in that this mfgs now isn't even aware of.
Another matter is leadtime. When I clicked on the MAX5204AEUB the
leadtimes state "TDB". That is a big red flag for most seasoned design
engineers. Maybe you could talk to your executives that it would benefit
the company if the system was a bit more open. I can't see any reason
why it shouldn't be.
T
Tim Wescott
And just in case you're reading this thinking that Joerg is an outspokenJoerg said:
crank -- he isn't. He is outspoken, but he's no crank. His attitude
reflects that of many, if not most of the circuit designers that I have
worked with. "Don't use Maxim parts" is a refrain that I hear often,
and with emphasis.
I'd love to see the situation change, because I think your designers
cook up some pretty nifty parts. You've got a lot of history to live
down, though.
If you have the pull to make it happen, a market survey of circuit
designers asking the following questions should be informative:
* How long have you worked in industry?
* Do you think Maxim parts are well designed and of good quality?
* Do you think your next design would be better using Maxim parts?
* Will you be designing in Maxim parts?
* Why (or why not)?
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
J
Joerg
Hello Rebecca,
Well, that would be a good thing to find out now while you have (or can
easily obtain) all the data from John's purchasing folks. Not to pummel
the Maxim employee who handled it but to find out exactly what went
wrong. As many here in the thread have said it seems to be quite
symptomatic with Maxim so it would really pay to investigate. Then
corporate might consider a decision whether to train better, improve the
computer system or shut down the usual sales channel and route
everything through your department because you seem to be able to find
stuff while others can't.
My last experience with Maxim was regarding a switcher chip (IIRC
something like the MAX608) on behalf of a client. A very long time ago.
I was unable to get a straight answer out of Maxim as to when my client
could have a few thousand for a pre-series. So I kicked it out. That
design, BTW, is still in mass production. It was a pretty big ticket
design-loss for Maxim.
MDD is a great idea and might pull Maxim out of the reputation of not
being able to deliver. However, don't discount the huge warehouses.
Digikey is the de-facto standard in America. Many designers keep their
web site open all the time while designing. If something isn't on their
server or lists zero stock they move on. My clients love the fact that
at the end of a design they receive a BOM and can order all that stuff
from a single vendor. They don't really want to call all the individual
manufacturers.
Nobody is perfect but it's good to know that thing might be improving at
Maxim. Maybe some day I could design in one of your parts again ;-)
Well, that would be a good thing to find out now while you have (or can
easily obtain) all the data from John's purchasing folks. Not to pummel
the Maxim employee who handled it but to find out exactly what went
wrong. As many here in the thread have said it seems to be quite
symptomatic with Maxim so it would really pay to investigate. Then
corporate might consider a decision whether to train better, improve the
computer system or shut down the usual sales channel and route
everything through your department because you seem to be able to find
stuff while others can't.
My last experience with Maxim was regarding a switcher chip (IIRC
something like the MAX608) on behalf of a client. A very long time ago.
I was unable to get a straight answer out of Maxim as to when my client
could have a few thousand for a pre-series. So I kicked it out. That
design, BTW, is still in mass production. It was a pretty big ticket
design-loss for Maxim.
MDD is a great idea and might pull Maxim out of the reputation of not
being able to deliver. However, don't discount the huge warehouses.
Digikey is the de-facto standard in America. Many designers keep their
web site open all the time while designing. If something isn't on their
server or lists zero stock they move on. My clients love the fact that
at the end of a design they receive a BOM and can order all that stuff
from a single vendor. They don't really want to call all the individual
manufacturers.
Nobody is perfect but it's good to know that thing might be improving at
Maxim. Maybe some day I could design in one of your parts again ;-)
Joerg said:
When I was there, to check the manufacturing flow, you logged into a
mainframe via telnet, and read some cryptic user kick in the groin
report. The production people had binders containing such reports,
printed daily, to relieve the inquiries on the mainframe. To say it was
a joke is to be kind.
Have you ever wondered where those not so bright jocks, the minor
league, got jobs in the real world? Well, Jack Gifford likes sports,
especially baseball. So the minor league players got jobs from Jack in
the non-technical areas of the company. We called these people the FOJs
(Friends of Jack, a play of words on the FOBs). Actually, one of the
baseball players was good guy, but he pissed of another FOJ, which was
a child of one of his personal friends, and he got axed. One of the
jocks was borderline psycho, something I suspect due to excessive
steroids. Most of production control just can't cut it, and your supply
issues are directly related to those people. That's why I say selling
the company would be the best thing that could happen to it. Keep
whatever engineers are left and clear out the rest of the posse.
Most of the talent has left already. When the stock was cranking, you
could work around the idiots in the company. In fact, that was the only
way things got done, i.e. people ignoring their boses at times since
management is clueless anyway. With the stock tanking, their was no use
in suffering the fools, and engineers left in droves.
Then there are the business managers. Oh, don't get me started....
J
John Woodgate
In message <[email protected]>, dated
Well, I suggested that; it seems the most likely and least blameworthy
explanation. Please understand that I'm on your side; I wish you every
success.
I'm a consultant, so 50 parts would be a BIG order for me to place. I
don't have the problems that my colleagues report. But I wish they
didn't have them, and I look at Maxim parts and see the quality there.
So it's even more of a pity that, for whatever reason, people aren't
using them, even people who really want to.
Tue said:
Well, I suggested that; it seems the most likely and least blameworthy
explanation. Please understand that I'm on your side; I wish you every
success.
I'm a consultant, so 50 parts would be a BIG order for me to place. I
don't have the problems that my colleagues report. But I wish they
didn't have them, and I look at Maxim parts and see the quality there.
So it's even more of a pity that, for whatever reason, people aren't
using them, even people who really want to.
P
PeteS
Joerg said:
I have rather hammered on TI (as it's direct competition to Maxim), and
if you bring up any old random part - let's take a direct competition
part:
MAX3243E
Page at:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/max3243e.html
Now scroll down for pricing:
Easy as pie - 0.63 to 0.74 depending on options in 1k (budgetary)
Note the simple link for samples (yes, you have to be registered, but
we expect that for samples). I have taken those links many times, and
they not only work, TI will ask if there are other items you may wish
to try because they are in your design. (Take the link, you'll see
what I mean). I am in the UK - the *longest* I have had to wait for
samples is 2 days. I always get a call from my FAE within 2 more days
about any new parts, as well.
Now let's go further down : Surprise! TI lists Digikey as a supplier.
Hot the button, you'll go direct to the Digikey page to select and buy.
TI isn't perfect, but in the business sense they are hammering the
daylights out of Maxim on their own (second sourced) products.
This is how easy Maxim has to make it, and look closely at the
availability lines - I can tell up front before I even design a part in
whether I can get it, either from TI **or from distribution**.
We do not doubt you are braving the Lion's den here, Rebecca, but you
should bring this thread (in it's entirety) to senior management
attention, and look at how you *should* do it.
If they don't listen, change jobs
I have noted that Maxim makes Great parts[tm], but most of us don't
believe Maxim any more when they say they'll supply them. Maxim has a
tough row to hoe to gain back the 'mindshare' of designers. Designers,
not managers, decide who's parts get designed in, but if we can't get a
part, we really get it in the neck. If we don't believe a supplier will
deliver, we **don't even bother to look** at their offerings, no matter
how high the 'drool' factor.
Food for thought.
Cheers
PeteS
J
John Woodgate
In message said:
I think it would be better if you stopped. Recounting all that can't
improve Rebecca's chances of sorting out the situation; it's more likely
to give the impression that the newsgroup is emotionally antagonistic to
Maxim, which would enrage senior management and could put a stop to the
initiative.
J
Joerg
Hello Pete,
Absolutely, they do. TI, Analog Devices and other (mostly North
American) semiconductor manufacturers are a good example on how to keep
customers happy. For some reason in the worlds of mechanical stuff,
construction supplies or automotive it is the other way around, there I
try my darndest to find an import solution.
Fully agree. As will probably most others and pretty much all my clients.
Unavailability has cost engineers their family vacations. Non-refundable
flight tickets, hotel bookings etc. That has a sobering and long-lasting
effect on people because they will now not only have a boss hollering
into their face but a pouting spouse and cranky kids.
Old saying in sales: If you can't deliver, someone else will.
Absolutely, they do. TI, Analog Devices and other (mostly North
American) semiconductor manufacturers are a good example on how to keep
customers happy. For some reason in the worlds of mechanical stuff,
construction supplies or automotive it is the other way around, there I
try my darndest to find an import solution.
Fully agree. As will probably most others and pretty much all my clients.
We do not doubt you are braving the Lion's den here, Rebecca, but you
should bring this thread (in it's entirety) to senior management
attention, and look at how you *should* do it.
If they don't listen, change jobs
I have noted that Maxim makes Great parts[tm], but most of us don't
believe Maxim any more when they say they'll supply them. Maxim has a
tough row to hoe to gain back the 'mindshare' of designers. Designers,
not managers, decide who's parts get designed in, but if we can't get a
part, we really get it in the neck. ...
Unavailability has cost engineers their family vacations. Non-refundable
flight tickets, hotel bookings etc. That has a sobering and long-lasting
effect on people because they will now not only have a boss hollering
into their face but a pouting spouse and cranky kids.
Old saying in sales: If you can't deliver, someone else will.
P
PeteS
John said:
Perhaps so, John, although I find it interesting. I would say that if
Maxim's management gets enraged when criticised, maybe they aren't in
the right job, but that's a separate issue
On the track of this thread, I can actually quantify the loss to Maxim
on the last 3 designs I have done. I initially designed in a number of
MAX parts - a very nice supervisor , some A-Ds, D-As and a number of
general parts. The total price [to me] of those parts (which I did note
before I left the office) was (for all 3 designs) £53.87
Those units have just passed the 10k systems installed point, and seem
set to go at a rate of 50k / year each for the next 2 years at least [
we currently have orders for 30k systems for the next 6 months or so,
and lots of interest beyond that].
So that's about 100k x £53.87; roughly £5.4 million. It's actually a
little higher, as one particular product sells about 2:1 to the other
parts of the system as a standalone unit, but the MAX parts in there
are lower cost total - my guesstimate of the total is £6.5 million
over a 2.5 years period.
So there you have it, Rebecca - across 3 designs MAX has 'lost'
(because they lost the design) over £5MM and possibly over £6MM,
simply because I don't believe they will supply me when I need it, and
therefore I don't design the parts in. Just thought you might want to
see some numbers from a *low volume* OEM.
Cheers
PeteS
P
PeteS
Tim said:
To start the answers, just so (if they look, as I hope they will) MAX
management can see:
over 30 years
For better than 50% of the parts, they beat or meet (spec wise) the
competition
Because I don't believe I will be able to get the parts. They are the
electronic industry equivalent of vaporware (according to my
experiences over the last 15 years).
Cheers
PeteS
F
Frank Bemelman
John Woodgate said:
What initiative?
J
John Larkin
Joerg said:
I have rather hammered on TI (as it's direct competition to Maxim), and
if you bring up any old random part - let's take a direct competition
part:
MAX3243E
Page at:
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/max3243e.html
Now scroll down for pricing:
Easy as pie - 0.63 to 0.74 depending on options in 1k (budgetary)
Note the simple link for samples (yes, you have to be registered, but
we expect that for samples). I have taken those links many times, and
they not only work, TI will ask if there are other items you may wish
to try because they are in your design. (Take the link, you'll see
what I mean). I am in the UK - the *longest* I have had to wait for
samples is 2 days. I always get a call from my FAE within 2 more days
about any new parts, as well.
Now let's go further down : Surprise! TI lists Digikey as a supplier.
Hot the button, you'll go direct to the Digikey page to select and buy.
TI isn't perfect, but in the business sense they are hammering the
daylights out of Maxim on their own (second sourced) products.
This is how easy Maxim has to make it, and look closely at the
availability lines - I can tell up front before I even design a part in
whether I can get it, either from TI **or from distribution**.
We do not doubt you are braving the Lion's den here, Rebecca, but you
should bring this thread (in it's entirety) to senior management
attention, and look at how you *should* do it.
If they don't listen, change jobs
I have noted that Maxim makes Great parts[tm], but most of us don't
believe Maxim any more when they say they'll supply them. Maxim has a
tough row to hoe to gain back the 'mindshare' of designers. Designers,
not managers, decide who's parts get designed in, but if we can't get a
part, we really get it in the neck. If we don't believe a supplier will
deliver, we **don't even bother to look** at their offerings, no matter
how high the 'drool' factor.
Food for thought.
Cheers
PeteS
I just went to the Maxim site and clicked "check price and
availability" for a few of their proprietary parts we use. One came up
delivery: 17 weeks. Another was price: SUBMIT QUOTE and delivery
TBD**. A third was delivery: 17 weeks.
They also practically hide their distributors and emphasize the Maxim
Direct! thing.
With parts this good - and they are - they shouldn't be making it so
hard for us to design them in. My production and financial people are
yelling at me for using Maxim parts, and I'm the President!
And oh, as regards my DACs, I did last week give my purchasing people
a list of alternate versions, and Maxim told us they couldn't do any
better. I have, in the past, had luck getting Maxim mil-temp-range
parts when commercial parts weren't available, but at 2-3x the price.
John
J
Joerg
Hello Pete,
Yep. It would be like politicians who turn away from angry constituents.
Some did and they got the boot.
I could contribute a similar story. But one should suffice and that is
exactly what should land smack dab on the table in the board room.
Perhaps so, John, although I find it interesting. I would say that if
Maxim's management gets enraged when criticised, maybe they aren't in
the right job, but that's a separate issue
Yep. It would be like politicians who turn away from angry constituents.
Some did and they got the boot.
I could contribute a similar story. But one should suffice and that is
exactly what should land smack dab on the table in the board room.
E
Eeyore
PeteS said:
I'll just add my tuppence worth to that. TI do a great job of sampling parts and
they do arrive *fast*.
If there's anything I need to talk to someone about there's the FAEs at TI
Bedford, UK and they can help source the more exotic bits if the site deosn't
have a sample option.
Graham
