Locked Out by Vendor

[[email protected]]

After many many years of sticking with the monitoring service offered
by my initial home alarm installer, due to constant compounding price
increases I decided to get service from another company. I come to
find that my trusted provider has locked the new monitoring company
out the controller. When they sold me the system, they sat at my
kitchen table and told me that I was under no obligation to continue
with their service and that I owned the equipment. What they did not
disclose was on small line in a wordy and lengthy contract that
stipulates that they own the communicator. We’ve probably all signed
documents relying on anticipated fair business practices without
parsing words (‘I did not have sexual relations with that woman’).
Two questions, is this common practice and is there a hardware reset
on a Radionics 4112?

 

[Jim Rojas]

Long ago communicators were a separate component of the security system.
Now that it is all inclusive, their statement is outdated and not true.
If the dealer was to remove his "communicator", he would be leaving you
will no system at all, this is grounds for a lawsuit. In some states, it
is illegal for dealers to withhold access to your system after your
contract has been fulfilled.

Their contract should have been worded that the information contained in
the communicator belongs to them, which it does. All they need to do is
remove the information. This usually means a seervice charge of somekind.

Do not allow them to remove the main board. It is your property.

Jim Rojas

 

[Red]

X2. You'll probably have to pay them to remove their data, but ask
them nicely to download it, they won't have to send a guy out. If
they have objections find out who within the company would be the
person the attorney general's office could contact to speak about
this.

 

[Bob Worthy]

Long ago communicators were a separate component of the security system.
Now that it is all inclusive, their statement is outdated and not true.
If the dealer was to remove his "communicator", he would be leaving you
will no system at all, this is grounds for a lawsuit. In some states, it
is illegal for dealers to withhold access to your system after your
contract has been fulfilled.

Something called "theft by conversion" maybe?

This usually means a seervice charge of somekind.

Watch out Jim. The "Spellcheck Patrol" is in a bad mood today.

 

[Bob Worthy]

X2. You'll probably have to pay them to remove their data, but ask
them nicely to download it, they won't have to send a guy out. If
they have objections find out who within the company would be the
person the attorney general's office could contact to speak about
this.

The industry continues to shoot themselves in the foot. Tell them to unlock
the freakin board and move on. Why do they try to keep someone that will
never be happy after the fiasco. One client goes away, go sell two more. The
AG's office gets involved and then supports legislation against the whole
industry for some goof's idiotic policy. On the flip side, if the customer
owes you money, unlock the board so your competitor takes them over, along
with their bad pay habits, and turn the deadbeat over to collections. Life
is to short to get sideways with a customer over a lock out code.

 

[Crash Gordon]

No there's no hardware/software reset on the 4112 - ask the original company
to unlock it for you. If they still have remote programming software (it's
very old) they should be able to do it from their office.

 

[Barney]

that puppy's an antique. you'll be lucky if there is anyone around that
company that can even reprogram it. by the way, how's that studebaker
running? are you gonig to sue if you can't get parts for it from the
original seller?

After many many years of sticking with the monitoring service offered
by my initial home alarm installer, due to constant compounding price
increases I decided to get service from another company. I come to
find that my trusted provider has locked the new monitoring company
out the controller. When they sold me the system, they sat at my
kitchen table and told me that I was under no obligation to continue
with their service and that I owned the equipment. What they did not
disclose was on small line in a wordy and lengthy contract that
stipulates that they own the communicator. We’ve probably all signed
documents relying on anticipated fair business practices without
parsing words (‘I did not have sexual relations with that woman’).
Two questions, is this common practice and is there a hardware reset
on a Radionics 4112?

 

[Nomen Nescio]

Two questions, is this common practice and is there a hardware reset

on a Radionics 4112?

First of all, a 4112 can only be programmed by someone with a Radionics
programmer, or Radionics programming software. Even under the best of
conditions, this may severely limit your potential choices when selecting a
new alarm company.

Second, 4112s came in two versions, with and without the "Datalock"
feature. Panels with Datalock have an L at the end of the part number, if
you can look at the circuit board. The Datalock feature is designed to
keep one authorized Radionics dealer from accessing the programming of
another Radionics dealer's panels. If your panel has this feature, then
only your present company can unlock it and set it to a condition that
allows other Radionics dealers to program it. This can be done either
remotely, or in person. If your panel does not have the Datalock feature,
then anyone with a Radionics programmer can reprogram your system without
your present alarm company's permission.

Finally, the 4112 was a bare-bones panel many years ago, and although I'm
sure it meets your needs, you might want to consider investing in a newer
panel and keypads. One that can be serviced by a wider range of alarm
companies, for example, than these "authorized dealer" products.

 

[Spellcheck Patrol]

Something called "theft by conversion" maybe?


Watch out Jim. The "Spellcheck Patrol" is in a bad mood today. <

Jim is immune from spellcheck. It's one of those Affirmative Action
deals.

 

[[email protected]]

The industry continues to shoot themselves in the foot. Tell them to unlock
the freakin board and move on. Why do they try to keep someone that will
never be happy after the fiasco. One client goes away, go sell two more. The
AG's office gets involved and then supports legislation against the whole
industry for some goof's idiotic policy. On the flip side, if the customer
owes you money, unlock the board so your competitor takes them over, along
with their bad pay habits, and turn the deadbeat over to collections. Life
is to short to get sideways with a customer over a lock out code.

Yes, I agree. It seems very short-sighted of the supplier. I hate to
get the AG involved but I suppose a handshake does not go as far as it
used to. It's a local PA alarm company - Advent Security - so it
would be nice to find some others around with the same experience.
The unit may be old (Barney) but it functions as needed so there has
never been cause to update or change h/w. In fact, if the hardware
was failing, that would rightfully be on me.

 

[[email protected]]

After many many years of sticking with the monitoring service offered
by my initial home alarm installer, due to constant compounding price
increases I decided to get service from another company.  I come to
find that my trusted provider has locked the new monitoring company
out the controller.  When they sold me the system, they sat at mykitchentable and told me that I was under no obligation to continue
with their service and that I owned the equipment.  What they did not
disclose was on small line in a wordy and lengthy contract that
stipulates that they own the communicator.  We’ve probably all signed
documents relying on anticipated fair business practices without
parsing words (‘I did not have sexual relations with that woman’).
Two questions, is this common practice and is there a hardware reset
on a Radionics 4112?

How do you know it's locked out? Did the tech try to enter programming with
a 5200 programmer or just by downloading it?

The new monitoring company dialed into the system however when they
entered the default RAM Passcode, it did not match. I then asked
(nicely) the existing monitoring company, Advent Security, to reset
it. Advent told me that they would not release the code that they
changed it to. When asked to reset it, that is when I got the "we own
the communicator" line.

 

[Crash Gordon]

When we run into this kind of situation we will replace the panel & keypad
at our cost + 1 hour of our time.

I "may" still have a 4112 panel (NOS).

--
**Crash Gordon**

 

[Frank Olson]

After many many years of sticking with the monitoring service offered
by my initial home alarm installer, due to constant compounding price
increases I decided to get service from another company. I come to
find that my trusted provider has locked the new monitoring company
out the controller. When they sold me the system, they sat at my
kitchen table and told me that I was under no obligation to continue
with their service and that I owned the equipment.

That wasn't "the company" or the "installer". That was a "salesman".
You more than likely do "own" the equipment, though. If the
communicator is part of the common control unit, then the only thing
they "own" is the proprietary information the system uses to communicate
with the company's central station. There has been numerous legal
precedents that have determined this. If they continue to "insist" on
spewing the "ownership" line, then I would suggest that you:

1. cancel your contract properly (provide them with the correct notice),
2. have the company that wants to take over install their own
communicator and connect it to your existing system. This will allow
you to retain all the functionality of the original system.

If you really want to be a royal "pain" to the original company, change
your home phone number and have your phone company block calls
originating from it. That way the original alarm company's communicator
will still transmit signals to their central and there's nothing they
can do about it unless they come out and physically disconnect your
system (which you won't allow them to do because they're being "royal
pains" themselves). They won't be obligated to respond to any emergency
signals though, because you've canceled your contract.

What they did not
disclose was on small line in a wordy and lengthy contract that
stipulates that they own the communicator. We’ve probably all signed
documents relying on anticipated fair business practices without
parsing words (‘I did not have sexual relations with that woman’).
Two questions, is this common practice and is there a hardware reset
on a Radionics 4112?

You mean you sign a contract without reading and understanding all the
terms?? That's plain "dumb".

 

[Doug]

The new monitoring company dialed into the system however when they
entered the default RAM Passcode, it did not match. I then asked
(nicely) the existing monitoring company, Advent Security, to reset
it. Advent told me that they would not release the code that they
changed it to. When asked to reset it, that is when I got the "we own
the communicator" line.

It may not be locked out locally, as the previous poster suggested hooking
up a 5200 programmer locally may allow access.


Doug

 

[Jim]

The new monitoring company dialed into the system however when they
entered the default RAM Passcode, it did not match. �I then asked
(nicely) the existing monitoring company, Advent Security, to reset
it. Advent told me that they would not release the code that they
changed it to. �When asked to reset it, that is when I got the "weown
the communicator" line.-

I don't know how much trouble you want to go to to get the use of
your system but you might want to try this.

Send them a letter telling them that since they will not allow you
access to the alarm system that you paid for and that is your
property, that you are going to take them to small claims court to
obtain the cost of the installation of a new panel. You can tell them
that all you want is access to YOUR alarm system. Since the
communicator is part of the alarm panel it cannot be removed but they
are welcome to come and remove only that part of the programing that
allows the communicator to report to central station, as long as they
leave you with an operating system and access to the dealer programing
for the next alarm company. Be very clear on what you require them to
do so that they don't come to your home and make the system inoperable
and inaccessable. Sent Certified, return recept letter.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet in this thread, but
typically, nowdays, since communicators are an integeral part of a
control panels printed circuit board, the contract will say that the
communication
"software" is the property of the alarm company, not the communicator.
So you should confirm with them that they really said "communicator"
and not "communication software".


If they say "communicator" and you wanted to be a smart-ass about it,
you could tell them that they are welcome to come and take the
communicator, as long as they leave you with an equivalent working
alarm system that you paid for originally.

Whether you follow through on the threat or not is up to you. In my
state, if called to small claims court, a corporation is required to
be represented by an attorney. So even if you lose, they've still got
to pay him. If it's the same in your state then they may not want to
risk having to pay his fee and will decide to default your system
instead. If they don't respond, then it's your call.

 

[Crash Gordon]

hah.
it wasn't 4112...it was two 2212s

I pulled a 6112 out yesterday...I had installed it 20 years ago!...still
working but he wanted to move it from his office to his house and his house
needed wireless.



--
**Crash Gordon**

 

[Crash Gordon]

personally, the whole thing aint worth the few bucks it would cost to
replace the OLD OLD 4112 board and a keypad or two with something newer.



--
**Crash Gordon**

 

[Jim Rojas]

I liked the 6112. It was very unique. I had one in my apartment in Brooklyn.

Jim Rojas

 

[Crash Gordon]

I found it to be a rock-solid panel and still have tons of them out there
working fine since like 1985-ish. I still support them if I have parts, but
can't remote program them any longer.



--
**Crash Gordon**