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Lightning protection

W

w_tom

You have the frequency spectrum chart for lightning. Each
frequency is AC current. Each frequency contains some of the
energy from CG lightning.

How were radio transmitters created only from DC batteries?
A spark gap created AC from DC. Not very efficient. But like
lightning, the discharge through a non-linear medium (the
spark gap) puts energy into the AC regions - as demonstrated
by that frequency spectrum chart.

If lightning were only DC, then capacitors (ie. open
switches rated to exceed the breakdown voltage) would be
sufficient to block lightning. Lightning cannot be stopped.
Even if the breakdown voltage is not exceeded, still some
current passes through the switch due to AC components of that
lightning strike. If lightning were only DC, then long wires
to earth would easily ground lightning. Again, it is the AC
components of lightning that causes telcos to put their
switching computers up to 50 meters after the surge protector
AND put their surge protector right on earth ground. Wire
impedance of lightning puts significant energy in AC
components - as demonstrated by that frequency spectrum chart.

Either energy can be transferred by DC, or energy can be
transferred by AC. Clearly much of the energy from lightning
is found in AC (radio frequencies).

Wire has impedance. A sharp bend is the equivalent of
increasing that inductance (and therefore impedance) by
factors such as 6 times - a ballpark number. To 60 hz
electricity, this impedance is trivial and irrelevant. But
lightning is different electricity. We are talking about
10,000 amps with a rising edge of 8 microseconds. Anything
that increases wire inductance (such as splices, sharp bends,
routing through metallic conduit, etc) means a lightning
transient will seek alternative paths inside the building.

One trick in commercial radio stations to make lightning
seek earth ground is to feed the antenna through a coiled wire
or ferrite bead. That ferrite bead may be trivial to a radio
transmitter. But to lightning, that ferrite bead encourages
lightning to take earth ground at the antenna base rather than
find earth through the adjacent transmitter shed. Again, it
is the sharp rise time of that pulse combined with the massive
(and short) currents that make low impedance ground wire so
important to lightning protection. Generally increasing the
wire gauge provides little benefit. Decreasing wire length
(and therefore wire inductance) provides a much better
improvement.

To provide numbers as example: the 50 feet of 20 amp
electric wire may be less than 0.2 ohms resistance. That same
wire could be 120 ohms impedance to lightning. Voltage
difference be between a wall receptacle and earthed breaker
box if a plug-in protector were earthing a tiny 100 amp
surge? Less than 12,000 volts. That 0.2 ohms resistance is
not the problem. That 120 ohms impedance is just another
reasons why plug-in protectors are not properly earthed at
wall receptacles.

To reduce wire impedance, some installations use flat ribbon
wire instead of solid copper. However other problems such as
weather and corrosion must also be considered which is why
solid wire is often used for earthing. Military facilities
are suppose to inspect this earthing system every 5 years or
less. How often does the home owner do his inspection? Many
home owners don't even know an earth ground exists or is
necessary. Just another reason why we make compromises
between lower impedance wire and corrosion resistant
solutions.

Many reasons for keeping a lightning rod earth ground wire
outside the building involves factors beyond the scope of this
discussion. But one reason why: once inside the building,
then a destructive transient has a building is chock full of
conductors. The building concrete. The heating system.
Linoleum tile. Etc. The point is once lightning is inside
the building, then the building has too many conductive paths
to create destructive and induced transients. This is but
another reason why we earth transients before transients enter
the building.

Analysis and elimination of those so many conductive paths
inside a building is just too expensive and complicated.
Earth lightning outside the building and a majority of
destructive transients are eliminated. Keep lightning outside
the building so that protective circuits inside appliances are
not overwhelmed. Earth a transient through an adjacent plug-in
protector - even a trivial 100 amp transient and the protector
is something less than 12,000 volts relative to ground -
ineffective protection.

BTW, we earth to accomplish two goals. First we conduct
lightning to earth by the most conductive path possible. But
realities say we cannot do that well enough. So we attempt to
make earth beneath the building equipotential using concepts
such as single point ground, Ufer or halo grounds, etc.
However we can never make earth equipotential enough. So we
make the earthing connection more conductive.

Effective protection costs so little and is so much more
effective when the system is planned for and installed as
footing are poured. Add on solutions, as is standard in most
construction today, tends to be either more expensive or less
effective. One man's experience:
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
 
W

w_tom

The telegraph operator was not transmitting DC. Equation
for AC power transmitted by the telegrapher is demonstrated in
a famous equation (as taught in electromagnetic wave theory):
Telegrapher's Equation. For example voltage is defined by two
natural exponentials to the power of a positive and negative
imaginary number (for length of the wire) times Gamma (a
function of wire resistance, inductance, leakage resistance
and capacitance). You need not learn this equation. Even
telegraphers, using a battery and a code key, were not
transmitted DC electricity. They were transmitting AC
electricity that made learning the Telegrapher's equation
necessary.

Your example assumes some erroneous parameters. Length of
that pulse alone is not significant. A sharper rise time
means more energy ends up in higher frequencies. Start with
the rise and fall times of that pulse. For lightning, this is
modeled at 8/20 microseconds - not a 0.001 second pulse.
Furthermore the pulse is driven by a current source - not by a
voltage source. Voltage will increase as necessary so that a
given current will flow. Give lightning a low impedance path
to earth and the millions of volts in lightning appears
elsewhere - not inside the structure. CG Lightning is defined
in terms of current because CG lightning is driven by a
current source; not a voltage source.

Furthermore, a 20 ohm earth ground assumes electricity at 60
hz 120 volts is same as electricity that even creates plasma.
Resistance is not constant for electricity at all ranges.
Does earthing resistance remains at 20 ohms, or does
resistance drop due to higher frequency and current
parameters? Just another parameter that makes lightning
protection interesting.
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

Once again, you miss the point in favor of arguing and trying to prove that
your perspective is superior. Your use of the terminology "made of sine
waves" was incorrect, he called you on the matter and you continued to
maintain that postition and argue the point. My point was not to argue that
a wavelet analysis was better, only that sine waves are only on choice for
decomposing a signal. Once again, you are the one that looks like a yo yo.

Leonard
 
W

w_tom

If Leonard Caillouet had a better way to answer the
question, then he would have posted it. However everytime a
reply from Leonard Caillouet arrives, it is routinely another
'attack the messenger' post rather than an answer to a
technical question. Leonard remains consistent. Post personal
attacks rather than attack the question with facts. Where did
he even once try to answer the posters question? That would
be a pleasant and unnatural surprise.

Leonard often demonstrates only enough technical knowledge
to lob hand grenades. Keep your head down. Leonard is back.
 
C

CJT

w_tom wrote:
Many reasons for keeping a lightning rod earth ground wire
outside the building involves factors beyond the scope of this
discussion. But one reason why: once inside the building,
then a destructive transient has a building is chock full of
conductors. The building concrete. The heating system.
Linoleum tile. Etc. The point is once lightning is inside
the building, then the building has too many conductive paths
to create destructive and induced transients. This is but
another reason why we earth transients before transients enter
the building.

There you go again. Linoleum and concrete aren't very good
conductors.

<snip>

See that rebar protruding beneath the pad?
 
C

CJT

w_tom said:
Pulses are sums of numerous frequencies - numerous sine
waves. A pulse is not just a pulse. Like all waveforms, the
pulse is also a sum of various sine waves (of different
frequency, amplitude, and phase). IOW a pulse is not just a
pulse. A pulse is what happens when numerous sine waves (with
boundary conditions) are summed together.

You continue to confuse mathematical analysis with physical reality.
That is also true of lightning. Lightning is not some DC
pulse.

Define DC. Has there ever in the history of mankind been anything
that qualifies under your definition? Could there be? Would the
current flowing in a flashlight that's turned on, then off, be "DC?"

How do you account for the discussion at the Web page you cited earlier
of positive and negative lightning?

Lightning is AC electricity - at numerous radio
frequencies.

I was trying to be clear. Lighting is electricity. But the
electricity called lightning does create electromagnetic waves
that will be of same frequency.

Ground wires from any surge protector must avoid sharp
bends. As I have so often done, a published source:
US Army Training Manual 5-690
3.4 Lightning protection subsystem (p 46)

Interesting. Since you didn't provide a Web cite for context, I had
to look for one. The closest I could find was this, at pages 77-80 +/-:

http://ccb.org/docs/DMMHNAV/419A2.pdf

It's clear why they say to avoid loops, since inductance in
the path could lead to the result they describe -- sharp bends less
so. Query how sharp a bend you can put in #2 (or even #4) wire, anyway.

It's also interesting (to me) that they separately fuse the surge
protectors. It seems to me a fuse could present more of a discontinuity
than a sharp bend, and could also contribute some potentially
significant resistance (relative to copper wire).
I never said the earthing wire for a lightning rod must not
be surrounded by a building's girders.

As I recall you did say it shouldn't have a coil around it. Girders
could comprise a series of shorted one turn coils.

I only said the
preferred method of routing that earthing wire is to keep it
outside the building. This for reasons beyond the scope of
this discussion which is impedance, the purpose of earthing,
and characteristics of a lightning pulse that makes it so
challenging.
<snip>
 
L

Leonard Caillouet

The current discussion was whether your statement that lightning is made of
sine waves was correct. I charitably pointed out that the basis for may of
your posts is correct but your application of ideas often takes tangents and
you refuse to accept that there is anything out of context in what you say.
I do not claim to have superior knowledge to anyone on the matter and do not
feel compelled to attempt to demonstrate how much I know. You consistently
demonstrate a great deal of knowledge, but applying it in a manner that is
at best condescending and pedantic and at worst contextually inappropriate
and misleading. Your obvious preference for verbosity and debate make your
posts less useful than they would be if you were trying to be helpful.

It is a shame that your ego gets in the way of your ability to provide
useful information.

Leonard
 
W

w_tom

It helps to have EE knowledge and a few decades of
experience before making blanket statements (without any
supporting facts or numbers) about concrete conductivity. CJT
did not even understand the basic math and AC nature within
impulses (a spectrum of sine waves during the impulse). Now
he just knows concrete is not conductive? And we should agree
because CJT posts no supporting facts, numbers, or citations?

An Ufer ground is described in:
http://dayton.akorn.net/pipermail/towertalk/1999-September/026083.html
[TowerTalk] UFER Ground???
An Ufer ground ... this may be the ENTIRE ground system. Since
the concrete is conductive and there is lots of concrete area
in contact with the soil, it does a pretty reasonable job.

For some reason, CJT has decided that concrete is not a good
conductor of lightning only because it is not as good a
conductor to car batteries and 60 Hz utility electricity. He
uses classic junk science reasoning to support his feelings.
He provides not one supporting fact for his speculations. He
just knows and therefore we should know he is correct.

Lurkers who would learn and prosper from long proven
technical knowledge have numbers for concrete conductivity,
and a description of why concrete is so effective:
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm

Which do we believe? A blanket statement made without
supporting facts to promote speculations and rumors. Or the
science that says concrete is a good conductor as demonstrated
in virtually every town, cited even in the National Electrical
Code (NEC), and is demonstrated by numbers. I guess CJT will
next be writing a letter demanding the NEC correct their
standards. CJT denies concrete is conductive because somehow
he just knows. His personal knowledge is sufficient. Next he
will accuse ME of being patronizing?

Demonstrated was CG lightning's AC nature that demands
effective protection systems have short (ie. less than 10
feet) connections to earthing. Just another reason why
plug-in protectors with long connections (if any) to earth
ground provide ineffective protection. The AC nature of
lightning says an effective protector must be connected short
to earth ground. The AC nature of lightning is why properly
earthed 'whole house' protectors are so effective (as well as
a less expensive solution).
 
C

CJT

w_tom said:
It helps to have EE knowledge and a few decades of
experience before making blanket statements (without any
supporting facts or numbers) about concrete conductivity. CJT
did not even understand the basic math and AC nature within
impulses (a spectrum of sine waves during the impulse).

I'll let the visitors to this forum judge for themselves which
of us has the better understanding of what a Fourier analysis
really means.

That, after all, was what brought me to this thread -- your
apparent misunderstanding of the difference between an analysis
technique and reality.

Now
he just knows concrete is not conductive?

I didn't say it wasn't conductive. I said it wasn't a _good_
conductor -- like copper, steel (e.g. rebar), etc. It's apparently
a better conductor than dirt, which earns it a place in this discussion.

You don't want to address my points, so you attempt to redirect the
discussion on these tangents.

And we should agree
because CJT posts no supporting facts, numbers, or citations?

An Ufer ground is described in:
http://dayton.akorn.net/pipermail/towertalk/1999-September/026083.html
[TowerTalk] UFER Ground???
An Ufer ground ... this may be the ENTIRE ground system. Since
the concrete is conductive and there is lots of concrete area
in contact with the soil, it does a pretty reasonable job.

Better than dirt, anyway (probably mostly because it retains water
better) ...
For some reason, CJT has decided that concrete is not a good
conductor of lightning only because it is not as good a
conductor to car batteries and 60 Hz utility electricity.

For some reason, w_tom seems to think concrete is a better conductor
of lightning than it is of other electricity. He gets excited about
small increases in impedance caused by bends in copper wire, but then
apparently thinks concrete is a great conductor in comparison.

He
uses classic junk science reasoning to support his feelings.
He provides not one supporting fact for his speculations. He
just knows and therefore we should know he is correct.

Lurkers who would learn and prosper from long proven
technical knowledge have numbers for concrete conductivity,
and a description of why concrete is so effective:
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
Odd, isn't it, how much of that article's focus is on the rebar
in the concrete?
Which do we believe? A blanket statement made without
supporting facts to promote speculations and rumors. Or the
science that says concrete is a good conductor as demonstrated
in virtually every town, cited even in the National Electrical
Code (NEC), and is demonstrated by numbers. I guess CJT will
next be writing a letter demanding the NEC correct their
standards. CJT denies concrete is conductive because somehow
he just knows. His personal knowledge is sufficient. Next he
will accuse ME of being patronizing?

I'll let the visitors to this forum decide whether you have a
patronizing attitude.
Demonstrated was CG lightning's AC nature that demands
effective protection systems have short (ie. less than 10
feet) connections to earthing. Just another reason why
plug-in protectors with long connections (if any) to earth
ground provide ineffective protection. The AC nature of
lightning says an effective protector must be connected short
to earth ground. The AC nature of lightning is why properly
earthed 'whole house' protectors are so effective (as well as
a less expensive solution).

Apparently you advocate throwing away all plug-in surge protectors,
which, after all, rely on Romex grounds that might have sharp bends and
might exceed 10 feet, and prefer instead the purity of concrete
grounding pads for all.
 
W

w_tom

CJT knows things despite no supporting facts, numbers, nor
industry citations. Provided were supporting numbers and
sources that CJT doesn't even challenge. He just ignores what
industry professional have long been saying.

Pulses are chock full of frequencies. Described in simple
terms to be easily understood by those without sufficient
math: pulse is sine waves with boundary conditions. CJT's
replies are decrees without any supporting facts or numbers.
He arbitrarily declares in one and two sentence replies that
all those industry professionals, well proven experience, and
scientific concepts must be wrong. No reason why. He just
decrees. He even denies that concrete is a good conductive
material. Somehow he just knows so much better than Ufer and
other professionals who recommend this good conductor
solution. Somehow he even ignored the numbers so that he can
say concrete is not a good conductor.

CJT knows better than science. Nothing more can be said if
one arbitrarily knows better than the professionals and
generations of experience. We are done. CJT just knows
better.

Meanwhile, those who want effective protection start by
installing, inspecting, or upgrading that protection: the
single point earth ground. Then connecting each incoming
utility wire to that earth ground either using a hardwire
connection or via a 'whole house' protector. A protector is
only as effective as its earth ground.
 
C

CJT

w_tom said:
CJT knows things despite no supporting facts, numbers, nor
industry citations. Provided were supporting numbers and
sources that CJT doesn't even challenge. He just ignores what
industry professional have long been saying.

Pulses are chock full of frequencies. Described in simple
terms to be easily understood by those without sufficient
math: pulse is sine waves with boundary conditions. CJT's
replies are decrees without any supporting facts or numbers.
He arbitrarily declares in one and two sentence replies that
all those industry professionals, well proven experience, and
scientific concepts must be wrong. No reason why. He just
decrees. He even denies that concrete is a good conductive
material. Somehow he just knows so much better than Ufer and
other professionals who recommend this good conductor
solution. Somehow he even ignored the numbers so that he can
say concrete is not a good conductor.

CJT knows better than science. Nothing more can be said if
one arbitrarily knows better than the professionals and
generations of experience. We are done. CJT just knows
better.

Meanwhile, those who want effective protection start by
installing, inspecting, or upgrading that protection: the
single point earth ground. Then connecting each incoming
utility wire to that earth ground either using a hardwire
connection or via a 'whole house' protector. A protector is
only as effective as its earth ground.

Sputter away, small man.
 

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