life span durable ground based 'satellite' device.

[[email protected]]

I'm developing an electronic device in order to collect and store a
wide range of sensory (imagery, sound) data of an outdoor environment

This device will be installed in a remote area, high on a building (no
power lines) so it has to be self sufficient in energy supply. Because
of this remoteness, self maintenance and the not always so electronic
friendly conditions outside (rain, snow, heath of sunlight etc.) I see
it as a sort of ground based 'satellite' and as far as I can
see/feel (Hey... I'm a total novice) it also has to be constructed
similar to a satellite.

Everyday, for only a short period of time (a few seconds) it starts up
to collect the sensory the readings, which, to my latest estimates,
will take no more than 5 watts of power.

I'm not a professional engineer (but I'll get some help from a few) so
excuse me if I say things that are a little awkward or not that bright.


To provide the device with sufficient and long term energy, I'm
thinking to use about a square meter of a high efficiency solar cells.


My goal is to collect and store the data and keep the device running
over a long as possible amount of time, counting in years. What can be
said about a maximum life span?

Is the power source the main limiting factor just for example like the
30 year old space based satellite as Voyager and Pioneer which run on
radioactive decay reactors but if the electronics/transmitters will not
break down, will function and transmit data till the 2030's!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_2)

Or are there other life span limiting issues like decay of materials
(for now I'll use a welded a Zinc casket filled with Argon (prevents
oxidation inside)).

A lot of weather conditions affect the efficiency of solar cells.
seasons, temperature, angle of sunlight etc.
http://www.solarelectricpower.org/index.php?page=basics&subpage=pv&display=qa).


But I've read, at the same website I believe, that the life span and
power generating properties are between 35-45 years!(?)

Besides of solar cells are there any other durable long life energy
sources which can be used?



Thank you for your attention and every comment is appreciated!

Regards,

Marcel

 

[linnix]

I'm developing an electronic device in order to collect and store a
wide range of sensory (imagery, sound) data of an outdoor environment

This device will be installed in a remote area, high on a building (no
power lines) so it has to be self sufficient in energy supply. Because
of this remoteness, self maintenance and the not always so electronic
friendly conditions outside (rain, snow, heath of sunlight etc.) I see
it as a sort of ground based 'satellite' and as far as I can
see/feel (Hey... I'm a total novice) it also has to be constructed
similar to a satellite.

So, you should look into RF transponders.

To provide the device with sufficient and long term energy, I'm
thinking to use about a square meter of a high efficiency solar cells.
Fine.

...

Is the power source the main limiting factor just for example like the
30 year old space based satellite as Voyager and Pioneer which run on
radioactive decay reactors but if the electronics/transmitters will not
break down, will function and transmit data till the 2030's!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_2)

They don't need to run on batteries, but you might. Depending on you
goals and requirements, you might need rechargable batteries. They
would be the first to have problems.

 

[Michael Black]

I'm developing an electronic device in order to collect and store a
wide range of sensory (imagery, sound) data of an outdoor environment

YOu should look over that thread from back in July (21st to be exact)
where someone asked about the lifespan of satellites. It got a lot
of replies.

Wait, that was you. At least you've figured out a better question
to ask.

Michael

 

[Mark]

My goal is to collect and store the data and keep the device running
over a long as possible amount of time, counting in years. What can be
said about a maximum life span?

could you clarify this...you want the device to STORE the data for
years before it is collected?

bad idea...

collect the data on a regular basis so that the data is not lost if the
device should fail...

how do you intend to collect the data?

Mark

 

[Christopher Ott]

My initial concern with using a solar panel over a long duration would be
environmental. Rain, hail or wind damage, bird droppings, insects, etc. If
you're expecting to make this thing operate for decades without any contact,
a solar panel would be a poor start.

Tadiran batteries www.tadiranbat.com might have a better option. This would
get you 20+ years on a single battery provided you do your power conversions
correctly. As these batteries are 3.6v, you would need to check with them to
see if putting them in series will reduce the lifespan (assuming 3.6v is not
enough).

On a side note, you do need to address how you're going to get your data out
of the device...

Chris

 

[Ancient_Hacker]

I'm developing an electronic device in order to collect and store a
wide range of sensory (imagery, sound) data of an outdoor environment

Everyday, for only a short period of time (a few seconds) it starts up
to collect the sensory the readings, which, to my latest estimates,
will take no more than 5 watts of power.

Okay, so you have something like a video camera that runs for a few
seconds every day, drawing about 5 watts of power. That sounds about
right for a video camera.

5 watts for say ten seconds is not much power. You'd need a whole lot
less than a square meter of solar panel-- that size panel will give you
about 15 watts over 24 hours. You only need it for about 1/8000 of the
time, so your solar panel needs to be on the order of a few square
centimeters. Make it four times larger to handle dirt and cloudy days
and degradation, and you're still only talking about 4x4 cm of solar
panel charging a battery about the size of a pack of cigarettes
(filtered).

 

[[email protected]]

So, you should look into RF transponders.

Radio frequency (RF) transponders? What do you mean by that?
Ahh... to sent the data out, you mean.
No, this has to be (it probably sounds pretty weird to you) a time
capsule. So the data will be retrieved after it's life span. Maybe one
radio transmitting at the end to alert people. That will be if it
squeezes out it's last bit of power or in case of full HD's or Flash
memory.

They don't need to run on batteries, but you might. Depending on you
goals and requirements, you might need rechargable batteries. They
would be the first to have problems.

Yes, I agree. There're batteries which last for 20 years. (shelf-time).
This one for example.
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...e+batteries+20+years&hl=nl&gl=nl&ct=clnk&cd=5
But I'm hoping to let the device running longer than 20 years.

I'm curious why the shelf time is strictly limited to about 20 years.
These batteries are so durable because the chemicals are separated. So
why couldn't it be longer. (there's obviously a good reason for
that.... which I don't know yet).

I can remember reading an article long ago that archaeologists found
some strange jars in Mesopotamia/Iran/Irak. 2500 years old and filled
with crude chemicals. They were batteries. The article said they still
gave some current. ....but maybe that part is bogus.

 

[[email protected]]

YOu should look over that thread from back in July (21st to be exact)
where someone asked about the lifespan of satellites. It got a lot
of replies.

Wait, that was you. At least you've figured out a better question
to ask.

Michael

Yes. That was me. Sorry for that. The formulation of the question was
way of. ahum....
The reason for that is I didn't want to spoil the idea yet and the
analogy with a satellite didn't work out so it backfired.
Very smart people started to discuss and advice me about orbit
maintenance, radiation shielding and heat isolation.
That was kind of stupid of me. My apologies to all the people who
contributed all those extensive comments.

I hope this one is better.

Basicly I want to know how long a self sufficient electronic (solid
state) device, which consumes about 5 watts a day for ± 5 second (long
enough take a picture (ccd or cmos) and write it on a flash memory
module or highly reliable hard disk.... (cheaper but uses more power
(±15 watts))), will last in years and what kind of technology I should
use.

 

[Stanislaw Flatto]

I'm developing an electronic device in order to collect and store a
wide range of sensory (imagery, sound) data of an outdoor environment

This device will be installed in a remote area, high on a building (no
power lines) so it has to be self sufficient in energy supply. Because
of this remoteness, self maintenance and the not always so electronic
friendly conditions outside (rain, snow, heath of sunlight etc.) I see
it as a sort of ground based 'satellite' and as far as I can
see/feel (Hey... I'm a total novice) it also has to be constructed
similar to a satellite.

I would start by trying to find a MILspec and/or NASAspec on a component
that you are familiar with and read it properly to understand what is
involved in chosing this part for reliably performing long and
unattended activity.

Everyday, for only a short period of time (a few seconds) it starts up
to collect the sensory the readings, which, to my latest estimates,
will take no more than 5 watts of power.

I'm not a professional engineer (but I'll get some help from a few) so
excuse me if I say things that are a little awkward or not that bright.

Believe me, such things are "a little awkward" for a group of
professional engineers.

To provide the device with sufficient and long term energy, I'm
thinking to use about a square meter of a high efficiency solar cells.


My goal is to collect and store the data and keep the device running
over a long as possible amount of time, counting in years. What can be
said about a maximum life span?

Nothing!!! One sample of many components can have a lifespan from zero
to whatever and still conform to statistical calculations.

Is the power source the main limiting factor just for example like the
30 year old space based satellite as Voyager and Pioneer which run on
radioactive decay reactors but if the electronics/transmitters will not
break down, will function and transmit data till the 2030's!
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_2)

Those are performing past their design limit, just luck.

Or are there other life span limiting issues like decay of materials
(for now I'll use a welded a Zinc casket filled with Argon (prevents
oxidation inside)).

A lot of weather conditions affect the efficiency of solar cells.
seasons, temperature, angle of sunlight etc.
http://www.solarelectricpower.org/index.php?page=basics&subpage=pv&display=qa).


But I've read, at the same website I believe, that the life span and
power generating properties are between 35-45 years!(?)

Besides of solar cells are there any other durable long life energy
sources which can be used?

Being your satelite is earth based have you considered wind?

 

[[email protected]]

could you clarify this...you want the device to STORE the data for
years before it is collected?

bad idea...

I want to make this device as an electronic time capsule. When there's
almost no energy left or the memory is full (the end of it's functional
life), it will transmit a signal and/or sound to make people aware of
it's presence. If there are now people, it just stays there till it's
found.

collect the data on a regular basis so that the data is not lost if the
device should fail...

how do you intend to collect the data?

CCD/CMOS and sound (microphone)

 

[[email protected]]

My initial concern with using a solar panel over a long duration would be
environmental. Rain, hail or wind damage, bird droppings, insects, etc. If
you're expecting to make this thing operate for decades without any contact,
a solar panel would be a poor start.

The minimum power I need, I can get from a 8 square inch solar cell
panel.
If a make the panel's surface as big as something like 3 square feet I
can lose a lot of power.

And maybe rain and decay of organic material will reduce the power
loss. I have no information about this issue yet.

Tadiran batteries www.tadiranbat.com might have a better option. This would
get you 20+ years on a single battery provided you do your power conversions
correctly. As these batteries are 3.6v, you would need to check with them to
see if putting them in series will reduce the lifespan (assuming 3.6v is not
enough).

Thanks for the link.

On a side note, you do need to address how you're going to get your data out
of the device...

I won't. The idea is to make a time capsule full of daily recorded
sounds and token pictures.

 

[[email protected]]

5 watts for say ten seconds is not much power. You'd need a whole lot

less than a square meter of solar panel-- that size panel will give you
about 15 watts over 24 hours. You only need it for about 1/8000 of the
time, so your solar panel needs to be on the order of a few square
centimeters. Make it four times larger to handle dirt and cloudy days
and degradation, and you're still only talking about 4x4 cm of solar
panel charging a battery about the size of a pack of cigarettes
(filtered).

I agree that my estimate of the size (square meter) of the solar cell
panel is far more then enough.
That's because I'm not sure what storage media is going to be used.
Flash needs only ±1 watt to read/write 1 gb but a hard disc about 15
watts.

Also the panel's power will reduce over years by LID (light-induced
degradation).

 

[[email protected]]

I would start by trying to find a MILspec and/or NASAspec on a component

that you are familiar with and read it properly to understand what is
involved in chosing this part for reliably performing long and
unattended activity.

working on that.

Believe me, such things are "a little awkward" for a group of
professional engineers.

I was already afraid of that.
But anyway, I thank you for your comments.

Being your satelite is earth based have you considered wind?

Good point. But then you need moveable parts, barings etc. and I might
think that these will wear down very quikly by friction and clogging
with dirt.

Although somebody just pointed me out Kinetic power watches which are
running and generating electrical power for a life time.

KINETIC POWER
Some movements are powered by the movement of the wearer of the watch.
Kinetic powered quartz watches make use of the motion of the wearer's
arm turning a rotating weight, which in turn, turns a generator to
supply power. The concept is similar to that of self-winding spring
movements, except that electrical power is generated instead of
mechanical motion alone.
(text: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watch#Kinetic_power)

Can this be scalled up or made in a combo of wind energy?

 

[James Waldby]

This device [...] has to be self sufficient in energy supply. Because
of this remoteness, self maintenance and the not always so electronic
friendly conditions outside (rain, snow, heath of sunlight etc.) [...]
it also has to be constructed similar to a satellite.

Everyday, for only a short period of time (a few seconds) it starts up
to collect the sensory the readings, which, to my latest estimates,
will take no more than 5 watts of power. ....
To provide the device with sufficient and long term energy, I'm
thinking to use about a square meter of a high efficiency solar cells.

....

No, this has to be (it probably sounds pretty weird to you) a time
capsule. So the data will be retrieved after it's life span. Maybe one
radio transmitting at the end to alert people. That will be if it
squeezes out it's last bit of power or in case of full HD's or Flash
memory.

The "time capsule" idea has some problems; for example, you wouldn't
know if the device stopped working a few days after you put it up,
and as others have mentioned, could lose all the data at any time.

As far as lifetime goes, proper electronics could last several
decades, maybe a century, without any heroic effort. There are
scads of 1940's tube radios, 1960's transistor radios, and
1970's computers that still work just fine in spite of being
badly mistreated over the years.

However, unexpected problems could shut your thing down at any
time and it seems to me that you should expect your first effort
to work less than a month before failing, your second one to work
less than a year, etc. What climate would your device be in?
Will it be sheltered, or out in the dust, rain, snow, wind, and
freeze/thaw cycle?

For the long run, I think you would need to build it with no
moving parts, which in my opinion rules out wind power, disk
drives, motors, pumps, flywheels, automatic cleaning or active
aiming of your solar panel, etc. Except for Edison cells, most
batteries aren't worth considering. Super-capacitors don't have
a long-term proven track record yet, but probably are worth
considering. Anyway, all this said, I suggest you use an RTG
(radioisotope thermoelectric generator), or a solar-powered TG.
-jiw

 

[Rich Grise]

I'm developing an electronic device in order to collect and store a wide
range of sensory (imagery, sound) data of an outdoor environment

This device will be installed in a remote area, high on a building (no
power lines) so it has to be self sufficient in energy supply. Because of
this remoteness, self maintenance and the not always so electronic
friendly conditions outside (rain, snow, heath of sunlight etc.) I see it
as a sort of ground based 'satellite' and as far as I can see/feel
(Hey... I'm a total novice) it also has to be constructed similar to a
satellite.

Is this building abandoned? I'd think you could schedule at least a yearly
walk-around - I know if I owned a building, I'd try to maintain it.
....

My goal is to collect and store the data and keep the device running over
a long as possible amount of time, counting in years. What can be said
about a maximum life span?

I'd shoot for a year, and find a way to get my ass up there and maintain
it at least once a year.

Or is this some kind of spy thing, in some restricted area? ;-)

Besides of solar cells are there any other durable long life energy
sources which can be used?

Well, like somebody said, one of those little nuclear thermoelectric
pile thingies, but that's a little impractical. Just use some PVs,
some decent GelCell batteries (watch your temp. range), and check
on it once a year or so.

Or when you lose the signal.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

I'm developing an electronic device in order to collect and store a
wide range of sensory (imagery, sound) data of an outdoor environment

This device will be installed in a remote area, high on a building (no
power lines) so it has to be self sufficient in energy supply. Because
of this remoteness, self maintenance and the not always so electronic
friendly conditions outside (rain, snow, heath of sunlight etc.) I see
it as a sort of ground based 'satellite' and as far as I can
see/feel (Hey... I'm a total novice) it also has to be constructed
similar to a satellite.

Use a GSM phone. The have a packet radio mode which sends the bytes
fairly cheap. You can also have a two way communication this way.

Rene

 

[Christopher Ott]

Not wanting to sound like a "Free Energy" kook, but you might want to look
into how much receive power you could siphon from local AM radio stations.
From the numbers you've provided, I came up with you needing less than 300
microwatts continuous (obviously you'd need some charge/collection
circuitry). How big an antenna can you tolerate?

It is kinda late...

Chris

 

[Stanislaw Flatto]

Good point. But then you need moveable parts, barings etc. and I might
think that these will wear down very quikly by friction and clogging
with dirt.

From my past in aerospace electronics (including mechanics) mechanical
components have much better defined reliability than electronic parts.
Just notice the work being done by them in cars.
So a solution, when working on a "satelite" is to have experts in every
possible technology involved, and hearing pros and cons.

Good luck

Stanislaw

 

[Ancient_Hacker]

Basicly I want to know how long a self sufficient electronic (solid
state) device, which consumes about 5 watts a day for ± 5 second (long
enough take a picture (ccd or cmos) and write it on a flash memory
module or highly reliable hard disk.... (cheaper but uses more power
(±15 watts))), will last in years and what kind of technology I should
use.

Well you've got a heck of a problem here. Typical electronic stuff
these days isnt all that well designed to last. They're chock-full of
unreliable components-- switches, connectors, LCD displays, elastomeric
connectors, zoom lenses, motors, rubber parts, plastic gears,
lubricants, electrolytic capacitors, eproms, flash roms, and probably
more. There's no guarantee the camera will last for any length of
time.

Even if you buy an expensive, perhaps mil-spec "hi-rel" camera, how do
you test it and the rest of the equipment to verify it will last for
many years? You probably don't have ten years to waste testing the
stuff in real-time, plus at the end of that time, none of the parts
will be available, so you'll have to start over qualifying the
components.

One method that's often used is to assume, like chemicals, the rate of
deterioration doubles for every 10 degrees C, so you could test your
setup at say 50 degrees C for 1/8th the expected time. Better test at
least ten of the complete systems in parallel so you get some
statistical significance in the results. Not easy or cheap, but that's
a start at measuring reliability.

The price/reliability curve is quite steep, so you may find it much
cheaper to just replace the cameras every X years, or as they fail,
than to try to build ultra-reliable ones.

I suspect hard disks are out of the question-- all those moving parts
are unlikely to stay well lubed for more than a few years.

 

[Glen Walpert]

I agree that my estimate of the size (square meter) of the solar cell
panel is far more then enough.
That's because I'm not sure what storage media is going to be used.
Flash needs only ±1 watt to read/write 1 gb but a hard disc about 15
watts.

Also the panel's power will reduce over years by LID (light-induced
degradation).

Solar cell reliability varies widely depending on type. At the high
end are single crystal cells with acrylic encapsulation on the back of
glass. Good luck finding one. At the low end are first generation
polycrystaline cells silicone encapsulated on the back of glass. This
type is readily available, but deteriorates rapidly (several percent
per year IIRC) due mainly to water diffusion into the grain boundaries
creating shorts and also slightly due to light induced yellowing of
the silicone. Prime new second generation polycrystaline cell panels
have passivated grain boundaries and have switched back to the more
difficult acrylic encapsulation; these are supposedly almost as good
as the old single crystal versions, but they are not generally
available in small quantities yet since production is not yet able to
meet the demand from the few system installers with buying agreements
in place. You might be able to persuade a system installer to sell
you a second generation panel but you will not find any for sale from
distributors that sell panels yet and they are only made in relatively
large sizes. So for any small panel you can get easily you should
plan on several percent per year reduction in capacity.

Glen