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LENR history, future, and the politics delaying it

V

Vaughn

Here's a pretty good article about LENR progress and what has held it back.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/Cold-Fusion-is-Here-It-s-by-steve-windisch-120202-446.html


Mikek
I enjoy your cold fusion posts (but remain unconvinced).

In this case...
I would appreciate it if you wish to post any more references from that
particular blog (or whatever it is) please use cut and paste. That site
tried to load so much shit into my computer that I finally had to force
my browser to close. Therefore I never got to read the article you
posted, and certainly won't risk another try.

Vaughn
 
A

amdx

I enjoy your cold fusion posts (but remain unconvinced).

In this case...
I would appreciate it if you wish to post any more references from that
particular blog (or whatever it is) please use cut and paste. That site
tried to load so much shit into my computer that I finally had to force
my browser to close. Therefore I never got to read the article you
posted, and certainly won't risk another try.

Vaughn
Hey Vaughn,
I'm not sure what problem you're having, I didn't have any problem
loading it.
It is an article that is 4 pages long, but to get to the second page you
you need to click "2".
Opps, :) The page won't load right now, so I think they are having
an issue. Oh, just tried it again and it came right up.
Try again, I don't see a problem loading the page, and I'm on a boat
using wifi that's at least 100 yards away.
Here's the first few paragraphs, you can see if it interests you.
Mikek
Over the last several years, there have been many reports around the world about important multiple successes with what is popularly

known as "Cold Fusion", or more properly what is now known as
"Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions" (LENR). The latest was from January 31, 2012

at M.I.T. in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Professors Peter L. Hagelstein
and Mitchell Swartz gave a symposium and short class where a

successful 2-day LANL / LENR/ Cold Fusion experiment was done publicly
that produced at least 10 times the energy out, than was used.
This event was especially significant, since it was some professors and administration officials at M.I.T. who were leading the anti-cold

fusion attack wave in the early 1990's. Pro-CF proponents, such as the
late Dr. Eugene Mallove of Harvard and M.I.T. who wrote books and

articles on LENR before his murder in 2004, have theorized that the
vehement attacks, derision, and accusations publicly made about it then

were at least partially about M.I.T. and others trying to protect the
large amount of government funding they received for "hot fusion" research;

which would soon become utterly obsolete if cold fusion were a reality.
LENR research is dozens of times less expensive to perform than

hot fusion research, and much less ongoing funding is needed to maintain
a laboratory. No one knows for sure the real reasons CF was completely

discarded and discredited in the U.S. in the early 1990's; and certainly
many skeptics there and other places were genuine in their condemnations,

since many labs attempted "honest" replications and failed to get any
positive results (but others during that time did in fact get good
results).

At any rate, events have proven that the early Pons and Fleischmann
experiments were indeed correct and worthy of much greater study and
investment,

and the most prestigious scientific institute of all, M.I.T., has now
seen a successful public demonstration and verification over 20 years later.
Besides the above, NASA and other agencies of the U.S. government have expressed great interest in LENR. In late 2011, a presentation about it was

given at a major NASA meeting, verifying it is a valid and highly
important technology that will be pursued in the future. Dr. Dennis
Bushnell,

highly respected Chief Scientist at NASA Langley, has recently made
several positive public statements about LENR and its validity. And back
in 2008,

the CBS "Sixty Minutes" TV show did a segment on it ("Cold Fusion is Hot
Again"), where the amazing statement that the U.S. Naval Research Lab had

positively verified significant excess energy production was first
publicly made. Unfortunately, since that Sixty Minutes program first aired,

very little has changed regarding LENR in the U.S.: University labs are
still routinely denied funding to study LENR (difficult to understand,

until one "follows the money" and sees that the majority of these funds
for university-level energy research now come as endowments and grants

from large corporations such as oil companies), and we hear very little
about it in the mainstream media.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

amdx said:
...and we hear very little about it in the mainstream media.

There isn't necessarily an evil bogeyman, usually things just don't work
because the developer couldn't solve one last "little" problem, the same one
that stymied everyone else. And that's the part you never hear in the media,
which doesn't understand the technology or its difficulty anyway. In this
case it's the Coulomb Barrier.
http://www.evaluationtoolkit.org/illustrations/4/original/miracle_cartoon.jpg?1231530108

Sometimes the real story circulates in the scientific community. A good
example is Bill Lear's steam car project which depended on polywater
(Learium) for cylinder lubrication. When polywater turned out to be a false
artifact of bad experimental technique the steam car project disappeared
without a whisper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywater

Compare that reality to the hype and conspiracy rumors:
http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,105

jsw
R&D lab tech
Been there, done that, can't discuss it.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Morris Dovey said:
I think this is the point at which we need to 'fess up that we don't know
everything there is to know. The newly-posed question, to which we appear
to not yet have a solid answer, is: "What does it take to overcome the
forces involved?".

Who said we do know everything? Relativity and quantum mechanics were
unrelated competing theories. Both survived only because they don't conflict
experimentally. Newton's law of gravity stops working as expected at the
edge of our Solar system.
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php/82174-Voyager-anomaly-vs.-Pioneer-anomaly
It seems to me that the folks who're tossing pat answers on the table for
the press to feed on are, in effect, claiming that their egos are more
worthy of belief than experimental observations. They're the kind of folks
who'd happily announce that honeybees can't possibly fly...

The bumblebee claim came from a grad student who had switched from
aeronautics to biology in the late 20's or early 30's (?), when most
airplanes had two pairs of incorrectly cambered wings.
Yuppers - there's no shortage of examples of ideas that didn't work as
researchers/developers expected, but those examples prove nothing beyond
the fact that those particular ideas didn't pan out for reasons specific
to each individual case.

It shows that conspiracy buffs see malice when the cause is error.

Not that R&D is free of malice. I've lost good jobs because frustrated
competitors crippled the small company with lawsuits, which are very
effective at draining resources and distracting engineers even if they lose.
I avoided having to testify only because I had seen the "secret" circuit
idea on the electrical schematic of my car.

jsw
 
C

Curbie

Extraordinary claims, especially extraordinary claims that can't be
explained by the laws of physics as currently understood, require and
demand extraordinary proof, before they can be proposed as reality.

It's one thing to study, research and test this idea, the very act of
which is a valuable exercise in and of itself, it's quite a different
thing to give this idea any credit before it's conclusively proven
credible.

I'm still waiting for proof.

Curbie
 
C

Curbie

I'm willing to accept an independent verification as proof regardless
of the explanation of physics, or a verifiable test by you or anyone
else, but that hasn't happened yet... extraordinary claims require and
demand extraordinary proof, and so far, there's no explanation of
physics and no flying bumblebee.

I'll be happy to work with reality until reality changes.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Morris Dovey said:
On 2/6/12 7:09 PM, Curbie wrote:
...
I might find it a bit disturbing if you actually watched one work and then
heard you say that you didn't believe it worked - but I'd still have to
admit that the decision to not believe was yours to make.

I'd believe if independent researchers (like you) can duplicate the
experiment, or test a released product.

I've had plenty of fun doing fake UFOs, trick photography, theatrical and
movie effects and laboratory magic tricks as well as dog-and-pony shows to
impress investors and I know how easy it is to reinforce rebellion against
the authority of established science.

It's possible that the flying toys I released as a kid in Exeter NH started
their UFO craze. The most likely ones were plastic film parachutes with the
least possible ballast, which floated up on thermals like milkweed seeds.
They did look like flying saucers as they drifted away over the treetops,
reflecting the sun and clouds.
I'm not. I intend to find out if I can reproduce the reported phenomenon
for use in a part my project. ...
Morris Dovey

I'm glad you are attempting your own proof. That is the right attitude. My
mindset in a research project is to be very careful with the procedure and
try not to become so hopeful or skeptical that I overlook anything. Keep
good records.
http://colinpurrington.com/tips/academic/labnotebooks

jsw
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Morris Dovey said:
Excuse my bluntness, but screw the proof - I want heat. If I get that, the
log data will help me to determine the most advantageous starting
temperature/pressure values, and real-time data will allow dynamic control
of the reaction rate - which would facilitate designing and building safe
reactors capable of substantially higher output.

At the level you are working at, heat IS the proof. You don't need to
measure the isotopic ratios of copper, only the radiation level outside the
reactor. Many inventions served for decades without a theoretical
understanding. The steam engine ran for a century without one.

Don't be so defensive, I'm skeptical but not trying to dissuade you from
trying. When you circle the wagons you keep EVERYONE out.

jsw
 
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