Maker Pro
Maker Pro

LED strobe circuit needs more current

Harald Kapp

Moderator
Moderator
Check the last link in my previous post.
Component prices (mouser, single piece quote):
2n3906 0,179
2n3904 0,403
10uF 0,342
100k 0,759 (55 cts from CC's source)
Sum 1,683

Add a ULN2003 Darlington chip (35 cents from CC's post) an d a few resistors (I'd guess not more than 50 cents).

Total: 2,53$

So the integrated solution comes with about the same price tag as a discrete solution. The 555 based solution is probably a lot more stable (with respect o component tolerances) than a discrete solution. Personally I'd prefer this one over the discrete solution.
Prices will go down if you mass-produce the flasher and buy the components in larger lots.
 
Check the last link in my previous post.
Component prices (mouser, single piece quote):
2n3906 0,179
2n3904 0,403
10uF 0,342
100k 0,759 (55 cts from CC's source)
Sum 1,683

Add a ULN2003 Darlington chip (35 cents from CC's post) an d a few resistors (I'd guess not more than 50 cents).

Total: 2,53$

So the integrated solution comes with about the same price tag as a discrete solution. The 555 based solution is probably a lot more stable (with respect o component tolerances) than a discrete solution. Personally I'd prefer this one over the discrete solution.
Prices will go down if you mass-produce the flasher and buy the components in larger lots.

Roger that.

I might as well mention the other circuits..

The second is much like the first.. The only difference is the strobe effect is doubled. Like strobe/strobe -- off -- strobe/strobe -- off Otherwise same reqs. I realize the first two are so similar they could probably be built into the same controller however I need two different models. I am guessing for this one a circuit based around a 556 would make sense.

And the last is a ramp up ON ramp down OFF ramp up ON ramp down OFF.. The purpose is to simulate a rotating light and speed should be user controllable via pot..

All controllers share the same req list where applicable.

Again thanks for the detailed help.. It will take me time to evaluate and assemble...but I will report back here as I make progress right on into production if I make it there.
 
Last edited:

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
If you want to go really minimalistic, have a look at this circuit: only 5 parts including the LED. And both circuits use only very cheap components.

It would appear that author's desire to keep the component count down has left this circuit with no current limiting at all. Not for the LED, collector or base currents. Things don't get much cheaper than resistors! :eek:

Chris
 
It would appear that author's desire to keep the component count down has left this circuit with no current limiting at all. Not for the LED, collector or base currents. Things don't get much cheaper than resistors! :eek:

Chris

Yeah I never wanted to go that far.. Just trying to get an idea of the range of solutions.

I am looking at the circuit here tonight.. I want to take some measurements.. I ordered some new transistors as well.. I am noticing that there appears to (always?) be some loss of current or power from the collector to the emitter of transistors. If this is the case then is there some standardized way this "loss" is defined for transistors and is it normally listed in the spec sheets?

I am still working with circuit number 1 because I have easy access to pcbs..

So at this point I am trying to find the best way to get the brightest possible strobe effect out of this circuit for both practical and experimental purposes.
 
Last edited:
Still working on the original circuit..

Could use some help!!!!

After much testing and tinkering... It seems that the final added on output transistor is not being turned on fully due to the original circuit not putting out enough voltage and or current to fully turn on (reach saturation) the final output transistor..??

I am getting close to the same results with different transistors on the output stage.. The most recent tested transistor is the ZTX551..
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Can I back up a bit. What are your design requirements? Your critical requirement is high LED current, right?

What is your power source? Is it a power supply or a battery? What voltage, and what output current capability?

What type of LED are you using? Do you have a part number for it? What is its current rating? What are the durations of the pulses and the gaps?

Are there any other design requirements or limitations? For example, PCB size? I saw some costings earlier in the thread; do you need to make a lot of these?

Generally if you want a high output current I would recommend a MOSFET and a small current limiting resistor, driven by a separate oscillator, perhaps based on a 555. The schematic you posted at the start of the thread is nice and compact, but currents in the circuit will fluctuate during the pulse, and depend on characteristics like transistor gain, which is not closely controlled. If you want a more robust and consistent design, you probably should separate the pulse generation from the LED drive.

I think you should give a thorough description of how the circuit will be used (i.e. the power source), the components that you've decided on (especially the LED) and all the constraints you have. Perhaps this project needs to be looked at in a new light (pardon the pun).
 
Can I back up a bit. What are your design requirements? Your critical requirement is high LED current, right?

What is your power source? Is it a power supply or a battery? What voltage, and what output current capability?

What type of LED are you using? Do you have a part number for it? What is its current rating? What are the durations of the pulses and the gaps?

Are there any other design requirements or limitations? For example, PCB size? I saw some costings earlier in the thread; do you need to make a lot of these?

Generally if you want a high output current I would recommend a MOSFET and a small current limiting resistor, driven by a separate oscillator, perhaps based on a 555. The schematic you posted at the start of the thread is nice and compact, but currents in the circuit will fluctuate during the pulse, and depend on characteristics like transistor gain, which is not closely controlled. If you want a more robust and consistent design, you probably should separate the pulse generation from the LED drive.

I think you should give a thorough description of how the circuit will be used (i.e. the power source), the components that you've decided on (especially the LED) and all the constraints you have. Perhaps this project needs to be looked at in a new light (pardon the pun).

Hi Kris,

For the time being the original circuit is convenient for some quick prototypes since I can get these pcbs easily enough. The effect is what I need and in its stock form the circuit operates well. Later once I have something working I can focus on coming up with a long term "better" design.

The power source for testing is a 5v battery and later could be a regulated supply of 5v or a 5volt battery.

Since I am having trouble getting the final added on stage to put out enough current I was not too concerned about the top end.. However, it would vary depending on if white or red LEDs were used and these are called half watt LEDs.. Each unit would power up to two..so it would use two output stages or channels..

Thanks,



RED specs:

Size 8mm Straw Hat .5 Watt
Color Red
Luminosity/Brightness 15-20 LM (Lumens)
Forward Voltage 2.0-2.3v
Current 100-120mA
Wavelength 620-630nm
Viewing Angle ~ 120 Degrees
Mount Style Through Hole (Pins)
Lens Color Water Clear
LED Brightness Class Super/Ultra/Extreme

White specs:
Size 8mm Straw Hat .5 Watt
Color Cool / Clear White
Luminosity/Brightness 30-35 LM (Lumens)
Forward Voltage 3.2-3.6v
Current 100-120mA
Wavelength N/A
Viewing Angle ~ 120 Degrees
Mount Style Through Hole (Pins)
Lens Color Water Clear
LED Brightness Class Super/Ultra/Extreme
 
Last edited:

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Sorry, you did. But I've never heard of a 5V battery. Can you be more specific? How big is it? How much current can it supply?

The important factor is what you're intending to use eventually, not what you're testing with.

I've made some suggestions on how to get acceptable, easily controllable performance. I doubt I will make any suggestions for small fixes to get high performance from that original circuit.
 
Okay well I need to get the circuit I mentioned if possible to drive the LEDs in question..small additional output stage would work fine.

The power source is a 4.8 to 5 volt pack or regulated supply capable of putting out 2 amps.
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Well, I simulated that original circuit in LTSpice and it doesn't even oscillate! I shorted out the LED, to make it pretty close to a standard two-transistor relaxation oscillator, and now it oscillates.

If you really want to stick with that circuit, you can add a buffer to drive the LED. You could also connect the LED (with a small-value current limiting resistor in series) across the 22 ohm resistor, instead of in the emitter path. But I think your main problem is that the current pulse is extremely short. This is a characteristic of this type of oscillator. In my simulation, it's about 2.3 ms which represents about a 0.1% duty cycle!

Increasing the ON-time of the LED will increase the apparent brightness. If the flash is too long, it won't look right - more like a burst of light than a short flash. But the point where it changes from a flash to a burst is much longer than 2.3 ms!

You can increase the flash duration by putting a resistor in series with the 10 uF capacitor. A value of 100 ohms increases the flash time from 2.3 ms to about 12 ms in my simulation.

I'm suggesting a number of changes to the circuit, so I've posted a full diagram with simulated waveforms. Here are a few comments on components and values.

attachment.php


The 10 nF capacitor isn't really needed. It's not present in the standard two-transistor relaxation oscillator circuit. Removing it has little effect on the circuit's operation.

The resistor I've added in series with the 10 uF capacitor determines the flash duration; higher value equals longer flash. It must be less than a few hundred ohms though. In the simulation, values higher than 680 ohms prevented the circuit from oscillating, so I would keep it no more than 220 ohms, for safety. For testing, you could use a 500 ohm trimpot, so you can play around with the flash duration.

The 33 ohm resistor in the Q2 collector circuit also can't be increased much, although it wastes power. The relaxation oscillator relies heavily on transistor saturation characteristics, and currents must be kept high, otherwise it simply won't oscillate.

The 18 ohm resistor in series with the LED sets the LED current, in conjunction with the power supply voltage. This value gives about 110 mA with the LED I used for the simulation, which is the closest I could find in LTSpice (it doesn't have a very good range of LEDs). You should choose the closest value that gives the amount of current you want with the LED that YOU are using.

I've put a 100 uF capacitor across the supply. I strongly recommend doing this, because of the high currents and fast transitions in the circuit. The circuit is quite fussy, and everything you can do to make things more comfortable for it will improve its chances of oscillating reliably.
 

Attachments

  • epoint trondyne.gif
    epoint trondyne.gif
    56.9 KB · Views: 198
Well, I simulated that original circuit in LTSpice and it doesn't even oscillate! I shorted out the LED, to make it pretty close to a standard two-transistor relaxation oscillator, and now it oscillates.

If you really want to stick with that circuit, you can add a buffer to drive the LED. You could also connect the LED (with a small-value current limiting resistor in series) across the 22 ohm resistor, instead of in the emitter path. But I think your main problem is that the current pulse is extremely short. This is a characteristic of this type of oscillator. In my simulation, it's about 2.3 ms which represents about a 0.1% duty cycle!

Increasing the ON-time of the LED will increase the apparent brightness. If the flash is too long, it won't look right - more like a burst of light than a short flash. But the point where it changes from a flash to a burst is much longer than 2.3 ms!

You can increase the flash duration by putting a resistor in series with the 10 uF capacitor. A value of 100 ohms increases the flash time from 2.3 ms to about 12 ms in my simulation.

I'm suggesting a number of changes to the circuit, so I've posted a full diagram with simulated waveforms. Here are a few comments on components and values.

attachment.php


The 10 nF capacitor isn't really needed. It's not present in the standard two-transistor relaxation oscillator circuit. Removing it has little effect on the circuit's operation.

The resistor I've added in series with the 10 uF capacitor determines the flash duration; higher value equals longer flash. It must be less than a few hundred ohms though. In the simulation, values higher than 680 ohms prevented the circuit from oscillating, so I would keep it no more than 220 ohms, for safety. For testing, you could use a 500 ohm trimpot, so you can play around with the flash duration.

The 33 ohm resistor in the Q2 collector circuit also can't be increased much, although it wastes power. The relaxation oscillator relies heavily on transistor saturation characteristics, and currents must be kept high, otherwise it simply won't oscillate.

The 18 ohm resistor in series with the LED sets the LED current, in conjunction with the power supply voltage. This value gives about 110 mA with the LED I used for the simulation, which is the closest I could find in LTSpice (it doesn't have a very good range of LEDs). You should choose the closest value that gives the amount of current you want with the LED that YOU are using.

I've put a 100 uF capacitor across the supply. I strongly recommend doing this, because of the high currents and fast transitions in the circuit. The circuit is quite fussy, and everything you can do to make things more comfortable for it will improve its chances of oscillating reliably.

Thanks very much for the ideas. I will study this after work and report back.
 
The 33 ohm resistor in the Q2 collector circuit also can't be increased much, although it wastes power. The relaxation oscillator relies heavily on transistor saturation characteristics, and currents must be kept high, otherwise it simply won't oscillate.
.

Just saw this--you mean the 330K?
 

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
I think you'd be far better of with a 555TLC. Frequency and pulse width are more easily manipulated. The LED load will also not effect these values.

One thing though.. As Kris asked, where are you getting a 5V battery?

Chris
 

Attachments

  • 555(TLC)astable.JPG
    555(TLC)astable.JPG
    43.4 KB · Views: 510

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
I think you'd be far better of with a 555TLC. Frequency and pulse width are more easily manipulated. The LED load will also not effect these values.
I agree. But he seems to have a fixation on using these PCBs which are based on that design. I wasn't inclined to continue with that design, but I was able to make several improvements without hugely changing the circuit.

You know, more than half of the schematics I see on the net have at least one major flaw. It's depressing.

One thing though.. As Kris asked, where are you getting a 5V battery?
I think he's using a 4.8V rechargeable battery. Not sure, since he's been canny with background information. Reminds me of an earlier thread about people asking questions that require judgement calls without giving background information :-/

BTW, nice to see your pic! That's a pretty impressive beard ya got there.

Maybe this will encourage others to use face pics for their avatars...
 

CDRIVE

Hauling 10' pipe on a Trek Shift3
I agree. But he seems to have a fixation on using these PCBs which are based on that design. I wasn't inclined to continue with that design, but I was able to make several improvements without hugely changing the circuit.

I wasn't able to get his original circuit to simulate oscillation either. I was able to get one of the one's in Dave's links to simulate but it was a pita. The one I simm'd had no current limiting. When I tried to add some it wouldn't oscillate.


I think he's using a 4.8V rechargeable battery. Not sure, since he's been canny with background information. Reminds me of an earlier thread about people asking questions that require judgement calls without giving background information :-/

Uh, that's never happened here before. :rolleyes:

BTW, nice to see your pic! That's a pretty impressive beard ya got there.

Maybe this will encourage others to use face pics for their avatars...

It keeps my face warm. I like the idea too. I think it was Dave, Harold or Steve that said CC doesn't really look like a vending machine. :D

Chris
 
Top