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Kill-o-watt meter used on computer UPS - bad readings?

B

Bob F

I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and plugged it
into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was restored,
the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the computer, which
is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo processor) uses.

Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?
 
D

danny burstein

In said:
I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and plugged it
into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was restored,
the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the computer, which
is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo processor) uses.
Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?

Have you let it run for a bit? The UPS may be partially supplying
from the battery.

Let it go for an an hour or three and see what happens.

- to directly answer your question, I've never had problems
for more than a couple of minutes with UPS/KAW reading.
 
M

m II

I would suspect after a power outage a smartUPS charger circuit would
èqualize` the batteries to attempt to fast replace the lost energy
storage charge.

As the previous responder posted let it sit for a while and stabilize
charges.

---------------
"Bob F" wrote in message
I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and
plugged it
into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was
restored,
the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the
computer, which
is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo processor) uses.

Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Bob F said:
I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and plugged
it into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was
restored, the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the
computer, which is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo
processor) uses.

Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?

I just checked a KAW P4400 with two stepped square wave inverters and a 60W
incandescent lamp. It shows 111V 55W and 129V 59W. I see odd readings on the
input of a UPS too, but they have always been higher than expected.

jsw
 
D

danny burstein

I just checked a KAW P4400 with two stepped square wave inverters and a 60W
incandescent lamp. It shows 111V 55W and 129V 59W. I see odd readings on the
input of a UPS too, but they have always been higher than expected.

Have you had a chance to check the power draw
of that "60 watt" lamp when it's plugged directly
into the outlet (that is, no UPS inline)?
 
J

Jim Wilkins

danny burstein said:
Have you had a chance to check the power draw
of that "60 watt" lamp when it's plugged directly
into the outlet (that is, no UPS inline)?

It's my standard inverter test load. The wattage varies with line voltage of
course, and probably the age of the bulb as tungsten evaporates off the
filament. Typically this one reads 55W at 120V. This morning the line is at
122.6V and the bulb draws 58W.

I don't have another way to measure AC power that's significantly more
accurate than a KAW. Except for one old Amprobe my clamp-on current meters
pretty much agree with it. An in-cal analog oscilloscope with voltage and
current probe is typically assumed to be accurate to ~3%, and mine are long
out of calibration.

jsw
 
I just checked a KAW P4400 with two stepped square wave inverters and a
60W
incandescent lamp. It shows 111V 55W and 129V 59W. I see odd readings on
the
input of a UPS too, but they have always been higher than expected.

When you say higher than expected, do you mean, for example in the case
of an APC SmartUPS 700, higher than the expected 20W maintenance load
(fully charged battery, or, indeed, no battery at all)[1] plus the load,
say 100W, giving a reading higher than the expected sum total figure of
120W?

I must admit that I haven't made such measurements to check on how much
greater the cost of supplying a PC with mains power is over and above the
simple no load maintenance power draw of the UPS in question (when its
battery is fully charged) plus load wattage. I suppose there could be a
small additional loss on top of the no load maintenance 'loss' when a load
is drawing current through the filtering circuitry of the UPS but I would
have expected this to be an insignificant loss unless the UPS was equipped
with a buck/boost transformer function to avoid transferring to battery
power during modest sags and dips and it happened to be correcting for a
sag in line voltage at the time.

[1] The maintenance load figure is the one item that the UPS manufacturers
seem to be extremely reluctant to actually include in their
specifications. It's a figure I've never been able to find in _any_ UPS
published specifications that I have looked at (and I've perused quite
few).

I suppose this is an inherited 'Mind Set' harking back to the days of
cheap power but those days have long since passed into history. Now that
the cost of power is a much greater factor, not just to the home user but
also to large data centres where they can be using several hundred KWH per
day, it is rather surprising that the UPS manufacturers are still treating
the maintenance figure as a 'dirty little secret' never to be openly
disclosed to their customers.

FYI, I can give you maintenance figures for the following APC units that
I own:

SmartUPS 2000 32 to 35 watts
SmartUPS 700 20 watts exactly
Backups 500 3 watts

In all cases, this is the power drawn when their respective batteries are
in the fully charged condition (which, in the case of the SmartUPS 700 is
the same as with the battery disconnected - it supports hot swapping of
its battery pack).

The measurements were all made using a Metrawatt analogue wattmeter set
to the 100v and 1A range settings (100 watt FSD range) on a 240v 50Hz UK
supply voltage. The 100v setting might seem an odd choice for a 240v
supply but I wanted to measure on the lowest range scale possible and the
moving coil part of the circuit has no iron to saturate and will typically
be capable of coping with a tenfold overload without risk of burnout
(although the multiplier resistor may not be so lucky with _that_ level of
overload). It has coped quite nicely with the 20% overload over and above
the built in factor of two limit for the selected voltage range during the
last 15 years or so of 24/7 connection to the 240v mains supply.

HTH & HAND


I've got a fully charged Powereware Prestige 1000 va online UPS
sitting on my "Kill-a-watt" type unit right now, and it is fluctuating
between 0 and 61 watts, constantly changing. On the AMPS range, it is
pretty steady at 0.72 to 0.73 amps - which at unity power factor would
be 84 watts (117 volt line voltage) and there is NO WAY it is
dissipating 84 watts (or even 62) of power as heat. The unit isn't 2
dgrees F above ambient, and it's been running for several weeks.

I suspect there is some strangeness in the power factor throwing the
unit off.

Putting a hologen lamp on the kill-a-watt it reads 266 watts - plugged
into the UPS, it reads 339 to 334 - which would indicate the
"overhead" of the UPS is ABOUT 70 - 75 watts.

Again, I'm SURE it is reading considerably high - but the fluctuation
is significantly less than when it is running at no load. a 40 watt
bulb in the case would make it SIGNIFICANTLY hotter than the operating
UPS.
 
B

Bob F

Bob said:
I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and
plugged it into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping
after power was restored, the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed
by the UPS feeding the computer, which is way less than the computer
(quad core core-duo processor) uses.
Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?

I just tried plugging the computer directly into the Killowatt meter, and get
the same results. It shows 6 watts with the computer connected, and 9 with it
on. The killowatt just doesn't see the computer.
 
I almost missed the "Kill-a-watt" type unit" description you used for
your watt meter because I was rather surprised that an actual Kill-A-Watt
meter could produce such wildly inaccurate readings.

Unfortunately, a lot of the cheaper $10 units that were being sold in
WallMart or ToolMart shops a few years ago left a lot to be desired
regarding accuracy on non linear loads below the 100W mark and were
totally misleading with smaller smpsu type wallwarts where a real 6 watt
load could read either zero or some ficticious 15 to 20 watt figure. I
suspect the model of digital watt meter you're using is one such gadget.

Up until about 12 months ago, I was of the opinion that all such digital
watt meters were prone to this problem (as demonstrated by a couple of
£9.99 meters bought from our local ToolMart shop a few years back).

What changed my mind about the Kill-A-Watt meter's accuracy was my
acquiring a UK version of this meter for a couple of quid from a flea
market trader who specialises in flogging Maplin's returns. The particular
model in question being a Chinese made "Plug-In Mains Power & Energy Usage
Monitor" (as per the box description) made especially for Maplin with the
model code number of L61AQ.

<http://www.maplin.co.uk/plug-in-mains-power-and-energy-monitor-38343>

Curiously, on opening the box to look at the instruction leaflet, it
appears to be a Prodigit Electronics Co. Ltd product with the model number
of "2000MU-UK". The leaflet is quite clearly referring the meter being
sold by Maplin as an L61AQ.

The power _consumption_ of the meter itself is misquoted on the Maplin
web page as being 20W (which I've also seen misquoted as 10W in the specs
for the Kill-A-Watt P4460). The leaflet more accurately quotes this as 20
VAmax. In reality, checking it with the Metrawatt, the actual power draw,
as best as I can make out using a jeweller's loupe, is just over half a
watt.

The extremely low power factor of 0.025 is exactly what you can expect
when a simple capacitor dropper is used to produce the 5 (or possibly 12)
volt supply required of the processor /ADC chip used in these meters. When
the same circuit is used in a 120 volt device as opposed to a 240 volt
one, the VA figure is halved when delivering the same power to the digital
electronics of the meter.

Going by the PDF of the Kill-A-Watt P4460 manual, it appears to be made
by a different manufacturer using the name P3 International Corp. Since
they're physically identical, apart from the country specific socket,
these items have clearly been made in the same factory, I can only suppose
that "The Global Market Economy" has made manufacturing names as
disposable as email addresses. At the very least, you can bet your bottom
dollar that the L61AQ (aka 2000MU-UK) and the Kill-A-Watt P4460 were both
made in the same Chinese factory.

Whilst the accuracy on sub 10 watt loads is reasonable (around the +/-
15% mark), despite measuring to tenths of a watt, it simply fails to
register the 0.7W consumption of the Metrawatt when switched to the 200v
range (it shows, inaccurately, a reading of 1.7W when the Metrawatt is
switched to the 100v range - the other digital meter ( another Maplin
item, product code N67FU, that I'd bought a few months earlier at the same
flea market) displays this as 1.3W which I'm pretty confident is the more
accurate figure as it's almost twice as much as the 0.7W reading due to
the halving of the multiplier resistance in the Metrawatt when dropping
from the 200v range into the 100v range.

I've just realised that I can more accurately assess the sub 2W accuracy
of these digital meters by measuring the resistance of the MetraWatt
across the live and neutral pins (essentially measuring the voltage
multiplier resistor used on each voltage range). Rather conveniently, it
seems to be based on a notional meter sensitivity of 500 ohms per volt
since I get 50.1K, 100.7K and 247K ohms on the 100, 200 and 500 volt
ranges respectively.

Based on the voltage reading of 246.2v that I was getting from the
2000MU-UK (aka a 240v Kill-A-Watt meter) The other digital watt meter was
only over reading by 0.1W in both cases. The 1.7W reading from a 1.2W load
using the 2000MU-UK represents an error in excess of +40%.

For measuring sub 10W loads, the N67FU walks all over the 2000MU-UK in
terms of accuracy. I believe the 2000MU-UK (aka a 240v Kill-A-Watt meter)
loses out because they seem to have squandered a 4 decimal digit accuracy
to the voltage ADC instead of where such accuracy matters most, i.e. the
Current ADC.

The N67FU can only show voltage to 3 digits so it's reasonable to assume
the reason for it being able to show sub 1 watt readings with a fair
accuracy (as opposed to NO accuracy of the 2000MU-UK in this wattage
range) is that they've used the higher bit accuracy on the current sensor
ADC.

Although I wasn't as impressed by the 2000MU-UK (aka a 240v Kill-A-Watt
meter) when it came to sub 5 watt load measuring accuracy, this was only
on account I'd been even more impressed by the previously acquired N67FU
meter's accuracy in this very low power range. After my experience with
the ToolMart meter, both of these models couldn't fail to impress. ;-)

The only minor deficiency in the N67FU meter is the absence of the PF and
VA measurement functions contrary to these being specified in the list of
functions shown on the packaging. It's only a very minor concern since
it's very easy to calculate these figures, if required, from separate
voltage and current readings (which gets you a VA figure which can then be
used with the real power reading to obtain a PF figure). I have to say,
I've never felt the need to make such measurements.

The bottom line, regarding that useless watt meter of yours is that you
should replace it with an actual Kill-A-Watt (or better) meter if you want
to make reasonably accurate measurements of your computer kit's power
consumption.

HTH & HAND
It's a UPM EM100 Energy Meter, made in China and originally sold by
the Home Hardware company for $49 - I bought it on sale for 24.95.
Also sold at Canadian Tire. They are currently listed at 24.95 at
Canadian Tire. UPM was suject of a patent infringement case by the
manufacturer and designer of the Kill-a watt, P3 international of the
USA and Daniel Liu of Taiwan.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Johny B Good said:
...I see odd readings on
the
input of a UPS too, but they have always been higher than expected.

When you say higher than expected, do you mean, for example in the case
of an APC SmartUPS 700, higher than the expected 20W maintenance load
(fully charged battery, or, indeed, no battery at all)[1] plus the load,
say 100W, giving a reading higher than the expected sum total figure of
120W?

Regards JB Good

The UPS in question is a Tripplite 1050 I bought second-hand with apparently
bad batteries, which recovered nearly their full capacity after a few test
cycles.

I thought its initial power demand was ~60W but noticed a brief peak of 100W
after posting that. I had seen ~130W with a laptop plugged in and booting.
Now it makes sense.

That laptop is becoming a data logger. Yesterday I added a dual serial port
PC card to run both a Dataq DI-194RS four channel A/D and a serial-output
Radio Shack DVM. Since the meter isn't fast enough to catch inrush or
switching supply current I got some of these to use with the 194:
http://www.gmw.com/magnetic_sensors/asahi/current-sensors-HA.html
and ordered these to read thermocouples:
http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/2004324-ic-thermocouple-a-w-comp-8msop-ad8495crmz.html

The 400MHz laptop draws only ~8W with the screen off and should run for days
from a truck battery.

jsw
 
B

Bob F

Johny said:
I would say that's on account _you're_not_ using a Kill-o-Watt meter,
like the OP is. I, like you, ass-u-me d he was talking about a Kill A
Watt(tm) meter.

As I mentioned in a reply to another poster in this thread, I have
experience with UK version of the Kill A Watt(tm) meter and there's
no way it would behave in the manner described by the OP with regard
to what is obviously a cheap meter trying to pass itself off as a
Kill A Watt(tm) meter.

I was operating from memory. My meter is a P4400 Kill-a-watt.
 
M

Mho

When ae you going to stop posting enclosures on text groups using that
obsolete email browser and stop using my nickname, Eric?

Maynard?....LOL all that profession about being "The Usenet Guru"
 
In that case, I rather suspect that your meter has a fault. An obvious
test would be to use it to measure resistive loads such as incandescent
tungsten filament lamps, electric kettles, electric toasters, electric
soldering irons and so on.

These are loads that have a measurable resistance which will allow you to
estimate their actual power consumption by way of a sanity check (in
addition to the rating plate or label).

Bear in mind that most electric heating elements have a modest positive
temperature coefficient of resistance so will read a little lower than
expected when cold. The exception to this is the humble tungsten filament
lamp where the postive coefficient is not so modest (multiply the cold
resistance reading by a factor of 10 if want a ball park figure estimate
of its resistance at working temperature).
JB - even the lill-a-watt may be able to be fooled by a "digital"
power supply putting "dirty power" back out the line. I'm going to
have my UPM replaced and see if the new one has the same issue.
 
This statement I doubt.. Even my most energy sipping laptop consumes
20 to 30 watts when the display is active. (powered down is different
story.)
I think you miss-read. He said 7-11 watts was less than the computer
draws - not the other way around.
 
J

Jim Wilkins

Johny B Good said:
One would hope that the 100W represents a battery re-charging demand (and
ditto for the 60W reading). One might reasonably expect a 1KVA (700W) UPS
to have a maintenance demand when the battery pack is fully charged no
higher than 30W (on a par with the SmartUPS 700's 20W maintenance
consumption compared to the VA level of protection in each case).
Actually, with a modern design of UPS one might reasonably expect a
maintenance consumption of 5W or less.

AFAIK it was an initial inrush surge. This morning a P4460 gave one 75W
reading and dropped to ~65W.
The point I'm making here is that you might want to allow that TrippLite
plenty of time to fully charge its battery and test its consumption with
nothing powered from its outlets. ...

Any noticeable drop in consumption when disconnecting the battery should
be taken as a warning of impending battery failure. ...

The annoying thing with that tripplight unit is its use of three 6v 10AH
batteries rather than the more usual pair of 12v 7AH batteries which are
far more widely available on account of their use in home burglar alarm
control panels. The WH ratings are very similar, 180 and 168 watt hours
respectively.

Agreed, but I paid less than 10% of retail for it and the "dead" batteries
have recovered to nearly the rated Watt-Hour capacity.
This is yet another UPS manufacturer who fails to reveal the maintenance
consumption figure for its product. ...

The fully charged Tripplite's idle power is about 17W. The batteries hold a
charge well when unplugged for months. I won't know the DC power to recharge
them until I finish the laptop data logger, -after- I fix the hydraulic pump
on my tractor and do some excavating. KAW measurements include the charger's
or lab supply's overhead.

I left it "off" (blinking) and unplugged for a week and measured 0.36 KWH
($0.05) to recharge it. I'll probably add a switch to disconnect the
batteries without removing them, and test points to measure & recharge the
batteries from a lab supply. The batteries and wires are such a tight fit
that cramming them in bent a connector tab at some point.
I'm using an ancient Emerson 30, my very first UPS from about 20 years
ago, to protect the Cable modem wireless router powered from a normal
mains outlet. The maintenance consumption on this is only around the 7 to
8 watt mark. Strange to say, this was the only UPS that ever got used in
anger to cover a 3 or 4 hour outage shortly after its acquisition.
....
Aside from a period of sub one second dropouts a few years back when the
local substation contactor gear was in need of an overhaul, we've never
had any other outages. Here in the UK, suburban mains supplies are very
reliable (most of the UK population lives in the 'burbs) so the desire to
protect against a once per generation outage event might seem a little bit
over the top but it's my computer kit I'm protecting. The market for UPSes
is very tiny indeed in the UK. However, there's every possibility that
this may change in the not so distant future.

In New England power suffers from tropical hurricanes, arctic ice storms and
idiotic traffic accidents. I've twice lost it for a week, both in midwinter.
Is that using the truck battery to directly power the laptop through its
charger socket?
Regards JB Good

There isn't much difference between a 12V auto/air adapter which inverts to
18V or a small 120V inverter plus the mains power supply. I haven't measured
it precisely because the computer's draw isn't steady, and I don't own a DC
current probe for the scope. The only number that matters is run time, which
is too sensitive to hard drive activity and processor + fan speed to
characterize accurately. There's no point testing it with the computer
inactive because I wouldn't waste battery power that way during a blackout.

jsw
 
V

vaughn

....>especially as it was supplying a second
level of UPS protection from the protected mains sockets powered by my
SmartUPS 2000 (a 2KVA 1500W unit) that I keep in the basement.

This is a good point. I learned the hard way that feeding one UPS from another
is a very bad idea. Think of every UPS not only as protection, but as a
potential POINT OF FAILURE. To reduce the inevitable failures, simply reduce
the number of UPSs. I suffered more than one unnecessary server outage before
the lesson sunk in. One layer of UPS "protection" is plenty!

Vaughn
 
J

Jim Wilkins

vaughn said:
...>especially as it was supplying a second

This is a good point. I learned the hard way that feeding one UPS from
another is a very bad idea. Think of every UPS not only as protection,
but as a potential POINT OF FAILURE. To reduce the inevitable failures,
simply reduce the number of UPSs. I suffered more than one unnecessary
server outage before the lesson sunk in. One layer of UPS "protection" is
plenty!

Vaughn

What do you think of ganging them for occasional non-critical use, like
recording an hour or two of television unattended? One UPS will power my
recording PC for about 45 minutes. The wattage is somewhat less than half
the UPS's rating, so it might survive a longer run with an external battery.

jsw
 
...>especially as it was supplying a second

This is a good point. I learned the hard way that feeding one UPS from another
is a very bad idea. Think of every UPS not only as protection, but as a
potential POINT OF FAILURE. To reduce the inevitable failures, simply reduce
the number of UPSs. I suffered more than one unnecessary server outage before
the lesson sunk in. One layer of UPS "protection" is plenty!

Vaughn
Some UPS units will complain loudly about being fed by another one too
- some don't like squarewave input.

As for the power usage and the "kill-a-watts" units readings - I gort
a replacement for my EM100, and swings between about 33 and 40 watts
with the occaisional spike to 70 - I'll run it for a period of time
and see what the average consumption comes out to. The old unit
indicated over 60 watts, my guess is less than 35 watts. This is a
TRUE ONLINE dual conversion UPS, so it will draw significantly more
than a standby unit.
 
And, with good reason on account of the relatively large capacitive
loading they may present on their mains input, although it's more likely
that the cheap 'stepped' sinewave inverter driving into such a load will
be the first to succumb.

As long as any such cheap UPSes (such as the BackUPS 500 and the Emmerson
Accupower 30) are never used to feed another UPS and only true sine wave
output UPSes (such as the Upsonic UPS600 and the APC SmartUPS 700 and 2000
models), you'll be ok. As you may have gathered, I _was_ quite mindful of
this issue. ;-)


If this is the type that uses its inverter full time to power the load
from a float charged battery, that'll be exactly right!
That's the definitionof "dual conversion"
The new EM 100 registers .21 KwH over a period of 5.1 hours - which
translates to almost exactly 40 watts. The line reads 113 volts on the
new unit, and 116 on my old one.My LAB meter reads 115.6 volts - so
the new meter is going back.

It also indicates 0.69 amps, which at 113 volts would be 78 watts.

It is now on the "old" EM 100, which is more accurate voltage-wize,
according to my meter. It registers 0.72 amps at 116 volts - which
would be 83.5 watts. We will see what the KwH reading over time says.
 
That's the definitionof "dual conversion"
The new EM 100 registers .21 KwH over a period of 5.1 hours - which
translates to almost exactly 40 watts. The line reads 113 volts on the
new unit, and 116 on my old one.My LAB meter reads 115.6 volts - so
the new meter is going back.

It also indicates 0.69 amps, which at 113 volts would be 78 watts.

It is now on the "old" EM 100, which is more accurate voltage-wize,
according to my meter. It registers 0.72 amps at 116 volts - which
would be 83.5 watts. We will see what the KwH reading over time says.


Well, they both agree with 40 watts, when the KWH is devided by time.
 
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