Is it just me or is the pricing at Digikey getting ridiculous?

[Hammy]

I haven't placed an order there for a while but I need some HS drill
bits and they are the only place that has them so I thought I'd look
around and man I don't know how they stay in business!!! What is their
mark-up?

It's pretty bad when the mom and pop place where I get my ferric
chloride beats Digikey in pricing on everything I compared from
semi-conductors to PCB blanks. Newark just blows them out of the water
on 90% of stuff.

I don't spend tens of thousands a year on this stuff but I spend a
couple grand a year and Digikey isn't getting too much of it after
looking through their site.

 

[Joerg]

Since I know I can find the parts I need on Digikey, I usually don't
worry about what they charge. Prototypes cost far more in labor than
the parts cost. I give the production folks the makers part numbers
for the parts and also the Digikey numbers.

Exactamente. I have yet to find a company on this planet that has a
search engine as good as Digikey. This is why I always default to them
as well, and so do my clients in the US. I have the impression that 99%
plus of the software guys in the database business do not understand how
to program a proper search engine, only the guys who set up Digikey do.

The reason to give production the Digikey numbers is that it reduces
to nearly zero how often I hear "we can't find the part". Some
production parts get bought from Digikey just because they happen to
be the ones who have them in stock.


Digikey also gives a quick path to the maker's data sheets. This
makes designing easier. You can check that the part can be obtained
while also getting the datasheet.

I found their prices to occasionally be higher than for example Mouser
but not by much. Maybe 10-20% on some parts. But Hammy: It's not
necessarily the place to buy tools from, that I never did. Digikey is
for electronic parts.

 

[Hammy]

Exactamente. I have yet to find a company on this planet that has a
search engine as good as Digikey. This is why I always default to them
as well, and so do my clients in the US. I have the impression that 99%
plus of the software guys in the database business do not understand how
to program a proper search engine, only the guys who set up Digikey do.




I found their prices to occasionally be higher than for example Mouser
but not by much. Maybe 10-20% on some parts. But Hammy: It's not
necessarily the place to buy tools from, that I never did. Digikey is
for electronic parts.

Well to me cost is the most important and Digikey is highest even in
production T/R quantities.

Digikey search engine is good but what's wrong with using the actual
manufacturer's parametric search and then verifying distributor stock
and inventory? That to me is the most logical way to do it more so if
you plan on making a commercial product. That way you know for sure
beforehand if there are any problems in manufacturing and whether are
not the actual manufacturer will sell you the product directly in the
quantities you want.

I know time spent prototyping is high cost but then if you are dealing
with a distributor who also charges higher then most for the same
thing whether it be T/R or CT whatever you will lose a competitive
cost advantage.

I could go on but here is just a few examples exact part numbers from
a small distributor.

DOUBLE SIDED COPPER CLAD BOARD - 1/16' 1 OZ COPPER
Canadian dollars

ACTIVE123 $18.99
http://tinyurl.com/yjexpkc

Digikey $24.65

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=473-1007-ND

ACTIVE123 LM723CN 5 for $2.99

http://tinyurl.com/ykmnndl

Digikey 1 for $0.82

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-1596-5-ND

A comparison of exact part numbers with Newark gets even more
embarrassing for Digikey particularly transistors and PIC'S.

 

[Hammy]

This is not a fair comparison. At Digikey the same part for 10 is $6.3
so the difference is much smaller at comparable quantities.

Sure it is 10 for me from Digikey is $7.14 Canadian dollars 10 from
active123 would be $4.98 Canadian dollars.

 

[Hammy]

Sure it is 10 for me from Digikey is $7.14 Canadian dollars 10 from
active123 would be $4.98 Canadian dollars.

Forgot to add Active123 request you contact them for large volume
pricing and availability.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

I haven't placed an order there for a while but I need some HS drill
bits and they are the only place that has them so I thought I'd look
around and man I don't know how they stay in business!!! What is their
mark-up?

It's pretty bad when the mom and pop place where I get my ferric
chloride beats Digikey in pricing on everything I compared from
semi-conductors to PCB blanks. Newark just blows them out of the water
on 90% of stuff.

I don't spend tens of thousands a year on this stuff but I spend a
couple grand a year and Digikey isn't getting too much of it after
looking through their site.

What's your time worth? Digikey is a bit of a convenience store (more
so for items that are not components). Getting the exact parts you
want reliably next-day on a single P.O. with controlled and minimal
shipping cost is worth something.

The m&p places are great for students or hobbyists but our best local
one is best reached by subway or on a weekend when traffic is lighter,
and it wastes prime hours of the day, plus gas and parking costs,
getting a few parts (and they never have everything I need except for
the most simple of projects). I'd rather pay an extra $50 or $100 to
Digikey in most cases.

As to them not staying in business... they have over 2,000 employees
and they've survived and prospered (they are currently hiring!) by
providing a good service at a price where _they_ can make a profit.
Good on them, I say. I really don't want to do business with companies
that are just limping by.

 

[Joerg]

Well to me cost is the most important and Digikey is highest even in
production T/R quantities.

Digikey search engine is good but what's wrong with using the actual
manufacturer's parametric search and then verifying distributor stock
and inventory? That to me is the most logical way to do it more so if
you plan on making a commercial product. That way you know for sure
beforehand if there are any problems in manufacturing and whether are
not the actual manufacturer will sell you the product directly in the
quantities you want.

For hobby projects maybe but not for guys like me. I need 2nd sourcing
on (ideally) all parts. Having to trudge through 3-4 mfgs sites and then
on to the distributors from there easily consumes 15 minutes. My clients
have to pay those 15 minutes and I must be mindful not to waste their
engineering Dollar. If Digikey charges 20c more on a few prototype
parts, so what?

I know time spent prototyping is high cost but then if you are dealing
with a distributor who also charges higher then most for the same
thing whether it be T/R or CT whatever you will lose a competitive
cost advantage.

I could go on but here is just a few examples exact part numbers from
a small distributor.

DOUBLE SIDED COPPER CLAD BOARD - 1/16' 1 OZ COPPER
Canadian dollars

ACTIVE123 $18.99
http://tinyurl.com/yjexpkc

"An error has occurred" :-(

Digikey $24.65

That's just peanuts in the grand scheme of things

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=473-1007-ND

ACTIVE123 LM723CN 5 for $2.99

Errors too. Digikey's site rarely does, they never do maintenance during
typical business hours (but they should start thinking about a mirror
site).

http://tinyurl.com/ykmnndl

Digikey 1 for $0.82

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=497-1596-5-ND

A comparison of exact part numbers with Newark gets even more
embarrassing for Digikey particularly transistors and PIC'S.

Maybe. But in my daily life only this counts: The client needs to
ideally be able to buy all parts at one place and there Digikey usually
excels. My time spent wrestling search engines must be minimized and the
search engines on pretty much any distributor sites other than Digikey
are awful. Also, when keying in orders Monday late afternoon my clients
often need the shipment to arrive Tuesday morning. And it does.

Active123 is in Canada. This may be a better deal if you are in Canada
but that's not necessarily a fair comparison. Oh, and I just did a
search on their site for the LT3757 I just used in a design -> They
don't carry it. MIC4421, they don't carry it. BFP620, they don't carry
it. LT6700, they don't carry it. Honestly, what good does that do?
Digikey _has_ all that stuff.

 

[Hammy]

---
I think Digikey's pricing structure shows that they're more oriented
toward low volume production and prototyping than they are to
balls-to-the-wall production like some of the "big guys".
---

All the more reason to want more competitive pricing.

---
Nothing, once you've found whose parts you want, but their engine is a
pretty good way to see who's got what.
---


---
That's you, but you're not a distributor.

DigiKey doesn't make commercial product, they're a distributor, and they
seem to be doing all right without lowering their prices to more
conveniently fit your expectations.

That's fine but they can always make more if they were more
competitive.
I never said they did.
You missed my point entirely. I'm beginning to see why the Chinese are
taking over more and more of our manufacturing and tech jobs.

---
Bullshit.

I get $125/hr for circuit and prototype design, so if I supply a first
article with stuff from Newark, say, that cost me $100 or from DigiKey,
that cost me $150, I'll but whatever i more convenient at the time.

If you have been doing this for a while you should know by now how to
effectively search and where to find what you need so that you should
be able to save both time and cost. I didn't think an attitude like
that would provoke hostility I just assumed its common sense.
Everybody most everybody wants value for dollar.
I have I rarely use them.

Sorry to upset you it was an observation and just to see if anybody
else found the pricing out of line. Obviously you don't mind paying a
premium so your position is clear.

 

[Hammy]

If you're so concerned about that difference maybe you should check
why you're paying C$1.13 per US$ when the rate is actually closer to
C$1.02. I think you should use what ever service works for you.

I am and its another reason I rarely use them. They say it includes
brokerage and duty in the price the likely cause of the discrepancy.

I don't pay brokerage and duty at Newark. I pay flat rate $12
overnight shipping. I do pay sales tax ; Digikey also collects sales
tax off my orders.

 

[GregS]

I haven't placed an order there for a while but I need some HS drill
bits and they are the only place that has them so I thought I'd look
around and man I don't know how they stay in business!!! What is their
mark-up?

It's pretty bad when the mom and pop place where I get my ferric
chloride beats Digikey in pricing on everything I compared from
semi-conductors to PCB blanks. Newark just blows them out of the water
on 90% of stuff.

I don't spend tens of thousands a year on this stuff but I spend a
couple grand a year and Digikey isn't getting too much of it after
looking through their site.

I can't figure what to do with the telephone book. Maybe take
it into the bathroom, not to read !

I can't see it without my DIGIKEY magnifiers.

I usually price with Chips.com. Whatever.

greg

 

[GregS]

I can't figure what to do with the telephone book. Maybe take
it into the bathroom, not to read !

I can't see it without my DIGIKEY magnifiers.

I usually price with Chips.com. Whatever.

I meant findchips.com

 

[Hammy]

---
For you, maybe, so you could have the convenience of one-source shopping
for low-volume parts at high-volume prices, but I'm sure their business
model doesn't include you as a steady source of income.
---

Only an idiot excludes a segment from their potential market.
Considering they offer incentive for $200 buck they are trying to
include people like me.

snip

Has it ever occurred to you that they may be perfectly happy where they
are and aren't interested in competing with the Avnets?
---

For a business to remain happy were there are is ludicrous and a poor
business model, take that mentality to your share holders and tell me
how you make out when the companies stock plummets.
There was no mention of the cost of labour; did you see one or another
assumption? It's called a mentality a poor one at that. The Chinese
strive to cut cost in all aspects of business. They don't say oh its
only 10 cents or for that matter $50.00. There's only a 1 cent or less
difference between thick film 1% and 5% resistors yet they still sell
5% resistors by the boat load.

---
I've been doing this for about 25 years, and the first place I'll look
for electronics parts for breadboards/prototypes/first articles is
Digikey, since saving my client a dollar by searching vendors for an
hour doesn't make much sense.
---

Then math basic addition and multiplication should be trivial.

Lets see your paying an extra $50 to $100 or more then necessary per
order, how many orders per month times twelve , times what did you say
25 years? When is the amount non-trivial? Being an engineer would it
not make sense to develop a system and contacts to insure you get the
best price for what you are buying, every dollar you save is a dollar
in your pocket. The time spent would pay for itself before 25 years
well before.

That money could be used for several things like investing in your
business. In other words it's better in your pocket then Somebody's
else.

---
Yeah, and if spent an hour finding out how to save a dollar on a single
prototype part and charged for that hour, what kind of value would that
represent to my client?
---

It takes you an hour to find a part?

Take a look at their catalog. Mouser's too for that matter; seems
they've found the same niche.

JF

Dont go there for the same reasons.

 

[[email protected]]

Exactamente. I have yet to find a company on this planet that has a
search engine as good as Digikey. This is why I always default to them
as well, and so do my clients in the US. I have the impression that 99%
plus of the software guys in the database business do not understand how
to program a proper search engine, only the guys who set up Digikey do.

Yep. Our Arrow rep is constantly trying to get me to use their search engine.
I tell him 1) when you make it as easy as DigiKey and 2) that's what I have
*you* for. I sometimes actually buy from DigiKey but only for small
quantities and emergencies.

I found their prices to occasionally be higher than for example Mouser
but not by much. Maybe 10-20% on some parts. But Hammy: It's not
necessarily the place to buy tools from, that I never did. Digikey is
for electronic parts.

For production quantities I consistently beat DigiKey by 20-50%. Disties get
special pricing and sometimes disties will cut into that to make a sale. FPGAs
are notorious for pricing by the customer. Never pay the catalog price for
'em.

 

[Joerg]

Yep. Our Arrow rep is constantly trying to get me to use their search engine.
I tell him 1) when you make it as easy as DigiKey and 2) that's what I have
*you* for. I sometimes actually buy from DigiKey but only for small
quantities and emergencies.

My Arrow rep was very honest. "Our search engine isn't as comfy as
Digikey but we can get you a lot of parts others can't", and that's
true. Very good support, Arrow is one of the best.

For production quantities I consistently beat DigiKey by 20-50%. Disties get
special pricing and sometimes disties will cut into that to make a sale. FPGAs
are notorious for pricing by the customer. Never pay the catalog price for
'em.

Being an analog dude I rarely get to deal with FPGA. Except yesterday
when one was unable to drive a bus line. Hurumph!

Did you guys get the transformer issue licked?

 

[[email protected]]

My Arrow rep was very honest. "Our search engine isn't as comfy as
Digikey but we can get you a lot of parts others can't", and that's
true. Very good support, Arrow is one of the best.

I just call them and have them look. Yes, they are good. Our Avnet rep is
pretty good too. We get excellent prices from both.

Being an analog dude I rarely get to deal with FPGA. Except yesterday
when one was unable to drive a bus line. Hurumph!

Did you guys get the transformer issue licked?

Not completely. We received a small number of samples of the new transformer
but without manufacturing quantities we don't _know_ that it's solved. Only
something like 5% were failing in reflow so it's pretty hard to test three
samples for the problem. We have a very good manual test for the failure now
and an in-circuit test that tests ten out of fifteen of them. When we get
production quantities we can remove the manual test and will then rely on ICT
to flag any regression. Completely solved, no. We have a very good handle on
it and it's no longer impacting deliveries, so it's 95% of the way there.

 

[Joerg]

[...]

Did you guys get the transformer issue licked?

Not completely. We received a small number of samples of the new transformer
but without manufacturing quantities we don't _know_ that it's solved. Only
something like 5% were failing in reflow so it's pretty hard to test three
samples for the problem. We have a very good manual test for the failure now
and an in-circuit test that tests ten out of fifteen of them. When we get
production quantities we can remove the manual test and will then rely on ICT
to flag any regression. Completely solved, no. We have a very good handle on
it and it's no longer impacting deliveries, so it's 95% of the way there.

If there is time you could cook two transformers. One from the old batch
and one of the new samples. Ratchet up the oven temp and see which one
is going at what temp. At least that'll tell you whetehr they really
used wire with better coating.

 

[[email protected]]

[...]

Did you guys get the transformer issue licked?

Not completely. We received a small number of samples of the new transformer
but without manufacturing quantities we don't _know_ that it's solved. Only
something like 5% were failing in reflow so it's pretty hard to test three
samples for the problem. We have a very good manual test for the failure now
and an in-circuit test that tests ten out of fifteen of them. When we get
production quantities we can remove the manual test and will then rely on ICT
to flag any regression. Completely solved, no. We have a very good handle on
it and it's no longer impacting deliveries, so it's 95% of the way there.

If there is time you could cook two transformers. One from the old batch
and one of the new samples. Ratchet up the oven temp and see which one
is going at what temp. At least that'll tell you whetehr they really
used wire with better coating.

The "new" transformer only has the high temp wire on 1/2 of the primary, since
that's what is exposed. The transformers have a thermal time constant of
something like 8.5 minutes and are only baked for 3 minutes (about 10 seconds
at 250C, according to the profile). It's going to be real hard to balance
time and temperature to measure insulation melting with any confidence.

 

[Joerg]

[...]

Did you guys get the transformer issue licked?
Not completely. We received a small number of samples of the new transformer
but without manufacturing quantities we don't _know_ that it's solved. Only
something like 5% were failing in reflow so it's pretty hard to test three
samples for the problem. We have a very good manual test for the failure now
and an in-circuit test that tests ten out of fifteen of them. When we get
production quantities we can remove the manual test and will then rely on ICT
to flag any regression. Completely solved, no. We have a very good handle on
it and it's no longer impacting deliveries, so it's 95% of the way there.

If there is time you could cook two transformers. One from the old batch
and one of the new samples. Ratchet up the oven temp and see which one
is going at what temp. At least that'll tell you whetehr they really
used wire with better coating.

The "new" transformer only has the high temp wire on 1/2 of the primary, since
that's what is exposed. The transformers have a thermal time constant of
something like 8.5 minutes and are only baked for 3 minutes (about 10 seconds
at 250C, according to the profile). It's going to be real hard to balance
time and temperature to measure insulation melting with any confidence.

Then the only option would be to send them through the reflow oven "dry"
several times, together. Ratchet up the temp profile by 10C at a time
and see when the old one fails and when (or whether) the new one fails.
Of course if you have the SMT assy contracted out that isn't really
going to work.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:

[...]

Did you guys get the transformer issue licked?
Not completely. We received a small number of samples of the new transformer
but without manufacturing quantities we don't _know_ that it's solved. Only
something like 5% were failing in reflow so it's pretty hard to test three
samples for the problem. We have a very good manual test for the failure now
and an in-circuit test that tests ten out of fifteen of them. When we get
production quantities we can remove the manual test and will then rely on ICT
to flag any regression. Completely solved, no. We have a very good handle on
it and it's no longer impacting deliveries, so it's 95% of the way there.

If there is time you could cook two transformers. One from the old batch
and one of the new samples. Ratchet up the oven temp and see which one
is going at what temp. At least that'll tell you whetehr they really
used wire with better coating.

The "new" transformer only has the high temp wire on 1/2 of the primary, since
that's what is exposed. The transformers have a thermal time constant of
something like 8.5 minutes and are only baked for 3 minutes (about 10 seconds
at 250C, according to the profile). It's going to be real hard to balance
time and temperature to measure insulation melting with any confidence.

Then the only option would be to send them through the reflow oven "dry"
several times, together. Ratchet up the temp profile by 10C at a time
and see when the old one fails and when (or whether) the new one fails.
Of course if you have the SMT assy contracted out that isn't really
going to work.

With only a normal 5% failure, I'm not sure that would tell us anything
useful. We do our own assembly.

After taking a few of the failed transformers apart, as was suggested by
someone here, I found that the failures were all on the bottom of the
transformer (horizontal core). The ones with a small number of turns shorted
(the ones with a nominal DCR) appeared to be shorted in the corners where the
winding changed direction. Perhaps the windings/insulation was damaged (piled
up when changing direction?) or perhaps that's the hottest area in reflow.
With the higher temp wire (200C vs. 130C.) it should be better. The first
production batch should tell us pretty quickly. IIRC, a few hundred are due
in a couple of weeks and 1500 or so a couple of weeks after that.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

[...]

Did you guys get the transformer issue licked?

Not completely. We received a small number of samples of the new transformer
but without manufacturing quantities we don't _know_ that it's solved. Only
something like 5% were failing in reflow so it's pretty hard to test three
samples for the problem. We have a very good manual test for the failure now
and an in-circuit test that tests ten out of fifteen of them. When we get
production quantities we can remove the manual test and will then rely on ICT
to flag any regression. Completely solved, no. We have a very good handle on
it and it's no longer impacting deliveries, so it's 95% of the way there.

If there is time you could cook two transformers. One from the old batch
and one of the new samples. Ratchet up the oven temp and see which one
is going at what temp. At least that'll tell you whetehr they really
used wire with better coating.

The samples are not usually the problem. Quality has a tendency to
grow fainter with time in some cases.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany