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Is a 250W Flyback practical?

H

Hammy

Although there are many reasons why you should be shy of any Power
Integrations app circuit for a 250W flyback, the fact that the output
voltage is 48V, in this instance, is one point in it's favor. The
nearer-unity turns ratio of the higher voltage output assists in
making lower leakage inductance isolation transformers.

You should consult the most recent app note, in any event; yours is
dated 2001 and there has been at least one revision (July'03)since
it's publication for the TOP242-250 series.

RL

The transformer at coilws sugessted output is 33VDC at 7.5A.

http://www.coilws.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_15_155

This would be the way to do it.

Two-switch topology boosts forward, flyback designs

http://www.powermanagementdesignline.com/howto/205902762
 
H

Hammy

100uH after the mains rectifiers? Passive PFC usually requires a whole
lot more :)

For that 250W flyback a Choke for a 100kHz APFC is going to be around
400uH for about 300W output power..
 
R

Rich Grise

I came across this application note from power integrations, that shows a
non-interleaved flyback rated for 250W!

It's in this app note it's 49 pages and the 250W flyback is on page 23.

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/powerint/TOP242-249.pdf

Here is just the schematic.

http://i43.tinypic.com/aoxero.png

Apparently it's practical; somebody bothered to design and build it. I
probably wouldn't want to try it at home, but that's just me - I've never
had any luck designing or building switchers. )-;

Cheers!
Rich
 
N

Nico Coesel

Joerg said:
Well, quote: "A secondary winding of the transformer connects to
DC-conversion output circuitry, which may be of substantially any known
conventional type, such as boost, buck, buck-boost, Cuk, flyback,
forward, SEPIC, or Zeta, for example."

At quick glance that seem to mean you need the usual, a switcher that
does the PFC and another that does the voltage regulation. So what's the
big deal?

This one does regulation and PFC in one go.
 
L

legg

The transformer at coilws sugessted output is 33VDC at 7.5A.

http://www.coilws.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_15_155

Then it's the wrong transformer for this app note. There's no fudge
factor at 250W in a flyback.
This would be the way to do it.

Two-switch topology boosts forward, flyback designs

http://www.powermanagementdesignline.com/howto/205902762

Dropping the original power train components and topology is hardly a
minor tweak, but it does address the original issue in a straitforward
manner.

Congrats. You've just exhibited your reading and comprehension skills.

RL
 
N

Nico Coesel

Joerg said:
Theoretically you can but the question is whether it's good enough.

I tried it and it was good enough over the whole load range to power
an amplifier (40V). A PSU like this usually gets my OK if the ripple
is within 100mV p-p.
 
H

Hammy

Dropping the original power train components and topology is hardly a
minor tweak, but it does address the original issue in a straitforward
manner.

Let's see coupled inductors phasing inverted. Looks like a flyback to
me. The first one is a two switch forward the next example is a
flyback (two switch).
Congrats. You've just exhibited your reading and comprehension skills.

RL

Congratulation's you've just exhibited your lack of reading and
comprehension.

I'm not above reading other peoples suggestion and or application
notes to find a solution to something. I think they call it research.

The controller choice TOP Switch isn't the best external FET's would
be better. The dual switch is a good solution for getting extra power
from the flyback; any generic PWM controller could be used controlling
a HS driver. If you have any practical experience that says otherwise
chime in.

The reason for my interest is the fact that a ready made transformer
is available for 5 bucks, and it's designed for the output voltage and
power I want.
 
L

legg

Let's see coupled inductors phasing inverted. Looks like a flyback to
me. The first one is a two switch forward the next example is a
flyback (two switch).


Congratulation's you've just exhibited your lack of reading and
comprehension.

I'm not above reading other peoples suggestion and or application
notes to find a solution to something. I think they call it research.

The controller choice TOP Switch isn't the best external FET's would
be better. The dual switch is a good solution for getting extra power
from the flyback; any generic PWM controller could be used controlling
a HS driver. If you have any practical experience that says otherwise
chime in.

The reason for my interest is the fact that a ready made transformer
is available for 5 bucks, and it's designed for the output voltage and
power I want.

Wasn't trying to raz you. The dual switch topology is useful, in that
it allows recovery of leakage energy directly to the power rails, if
the correct turns ratio is applied, without extra windings or
elaborate intermediate storage. As leakage energy is one of the prime
goblins of the higher power flyback, this is a keeper, if use of
flyback is carved in stone. You should, of course, investigate the
suitability of the same '5 buck' transformer in the new arrangement,
as use of the dual switch does not change design considerations in the
flyback circuit, if all other inputs and outputs remain the same.

Top-switches are extremely difficult to use anywhere other than the
original application design , as their performance otherwise is
undocumented, uncharacterized and unpredictable. If your application
requires a micropower continuous housekeeper, you might consider using
one for that purpose and deriving from it a dithering clock for the
larger interruptible converter, to assist in EMI control. It could
also serve as an overtemperature protection device, low-power start-up
circuit etc etc etc.

RL
 
H

Hammy

Wasn't trying to raz you. The dual switch topology is useful, in that
it allows recovery of leakage energy directly to the power rails, if
the correct turns ratio is applied, without extra windings or
elaborate intermediate storage. As leakage energy is one of the prime
goblins of the higher power flyback, this is a keeper, if use of
flyback is carved in stone. You should, of course, investigate the
suitability of the same '5 buck' transformer in the new arrangement,
as use of the dual switch does not change design considerations in the
flyback circuit, if all other inputs and outputs remain the same.

The use of a flyback is the only practical solution for me because I
have to use off the shelf magnetic's. The pickings are pretty slim for
anything but the flyback topology. This does seem less complex then a
half bridge though and I'm pretty familiar now with flybacks.

Top-switches are extremely difficult to use anywhere other than the
original application design , as their performance otherwise is
undocumented, uncharacterized and unpredictable. If your application
requires a micropower continuous housekeeper, you might consider using
one for that purpose and deriving from it a dithering clock for the
larger interruptible converter, to assist in EMI control. It could
also serve as an overtemperature protection device, low-power start-up
circuit etc etc etc.

RL

I have some 70W flyback transformers I used for a 12V @ 4.5A with the
NCP1203. I'll try out the dual switch approach with them. It should
actually be cheaper or the same price and smaller more efficent I can
use 400V FETS, and I can omit the RCD snubber (heater). The FAN7371 is
a good candidate for the driver 4A/3A with a couple of FQP17N40 should
do the job, that and I have lots on hand.
 
L

legg

The use of a flyback is the only practical solution for me because I
have to use off the shelf magnetic's. The pickings are pretty slim for
anything but the flyback topology. This does seem less complex then a
half bridge though and I'm pretty familiar now with flybacks.

If this is the main design criteria, you could consider multiple
phased converters. Most of the work may have already been done.

RL
 
N

Nico Coesel

Joerg said:
What power factor values did you get out of it?

Good question. I don't recall. It sure isn't 1. I remember doing some
simulations and measurements before final design so I guess it was
good enough.
 
N

Nico Coesel

Hammy said:
The use of a flyback is the only practical solution for me because I
have to use off the shelf magnetic's. The pickings are pretty slim for
anything but the flyback topology. This does seem less complex then a
half bridge though and I'm pretty familiar now with flybacks.

How about a resonant converter? You can incorporate the inductor turns
in the PCB and mount an E-I core through the PCB. Probably even
cheaper than the transformer.
 
E

Eeyore

Nico said:
How about a resonant converter? You can incorporate the inductor turns
in the PCB and mount an E-I core through the PCB. Probably even
cheaper than the transformer.

Philips did a nice app note on something like that using planar E - plate or
E - E cores. Not sure if it was resonant though.

Graham
 
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