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integrate solar panels into charger-inverter based system?

R

Robert Morein

How does one integrate a solar array into a system built around a device
like t heXantrex 4024 ?

The 4024 automatically switches between grid power and battery power. When
grid power is present, it charges the batteries.

It's too late for me to select another approach, but I am curious about the
architecture of systems that opportunistically take advantage of solar
power, while taking advantage of rapid charging when the grid is available.
 
B

Bruce in Alaska

Robert Morein said:
How does one integrate a solar array into a system built around a device
like t heXantrex 4024 ?

The 4024 automatically switches between grid power and battery power. When
grid power is present, it charges the batteries.

It's too late for me to select another approach, but I am curious about the
architecture of systems that opportunistically take advantage of solar
power, while taking advantage of rapid charging when the grid is available.

The trick, is to have your Charge Controller on the PV side, setup to
charge your battery bank, and then have the 4024, monitor the battery
charge state, and when they are fully charged, Sell the excess power
back to the grid. Assuming, that you have a grid to sell to. My
system is stand alone with no grid connection, so I just don't have to
used the diesel gensets as often to keep my battery bank full charged.


Bruce in alaska
 
R

Robert Morein

Bruce in Alaska said:
The trick, is to have your Charge Controller on the PV side, setup to
charge your battery bank, and then have the 4024, monitor the battery
charge state, and when they are fully charged, Sell the excess power
back to the grid. Assuming, that you have a grid to sell to. My
system is stand alone with no grid connection, so I just don't have to
used the diesel gensets as often to keep my battery bank full charged.


Bruce in alaska
--
Thank you, Ron, Steve, Bruce, and Daryl of Penobscot Solar, who I know is
reading this.

Given the difficulty of charging a battery while an inverter is drawing
power off simultaneously, I wondered if the Xantrex charging algorithm would
function properly with an external voltage SOURCE (solar charge controller)
attached to the +battery buss. But I've been assured by all you guys that
this is the way it works.

And I'll take your words for it.
 
N

no useful info

no useful info said:
But this is who I am.

yes, the "." is who you are


I would never use X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409
although "Robert Morein" <[email protected]> who regularly posts in
rec.audio.opinion, rec.arts.movies.production.sound,
rec.audio.marketplace, misc.writing.screenplays and delights in forging
posts, does.
 
C

Chuck Yerkes

Robert said:
Given the difficulty of charging a battery while an inverter is drawing
power off simultaneously,
This isn't a complex piano piece. You've descibed basic electronics.
The "valve" is just a transistor.
I wondered if the Xantrex charging algorithm would
function properly with an external voltage SOURCE (solar charge controller)
attached to the +battery buss. But I've been assured by all you guys that
this is the way it works.

And I'll take your words for it.

Good cause that's what the trace/Xantrex DOES.
 
N

no useful info

Chuck Yerkes said:
This isn't a complex piano piece. You've descibed basic electronics.
The "valve" is just a transistor.


Good cause that's what the trace/Xantrex DOES.

boobie is still trying to figure out how to make a wood battery box,
apparently as a PhD candidate in engineering, simple is too complex for
him.
 
B

Bernd Felsche

Not difficult. The battery "bus" feeds the inverter... the charge
controller (MPPT, hopefully) connects to the battery bus. Power for
the inverter comes from the battery bus. As long as the charger's
voltage remains higher than the battery's, current will flow
"preferentially" from the PV array directly to the inverter. When
the inverter load rises, the charge controller will no longer be
able to maintain a higher voltage than that from the battery and
current will also be drawn from the battery.

Caveats:
1. the existing charger-inverter must have an appropriate terminal
for the battery to be connected.
2. the charger must "know" the charging profile of the connected
battery so as not to exceed maximum charge voltage during
various states of charge.

boobie is still trying to figure out how to make a wood battery box,
apparently as a PhD candidate in engineering, simple is too complex for
him.

Something that's worried me about higher degrees: remaining tethered
to the ground.
 
D

daestrom

Bernd Felsche said:
Not difficult. The battery "bus" feeds the inverter... the charge
controller (MPPT, hopefully) connects to the battery bus. Power for
the inverter comes from the battery bus. As long as the charger's
voltage remains higher than the battery's, current will flow
"preferentially" from the PV array directly to the inverter. When
the inverter load rises, the charge controller will no longer be
able to maintain a higher voltage than that from the battery and
current will also be drawn from the battery.

What you say is true for chargers that *only* monitor the battery-bus
voltage. But if the charger also monitors the current to 'decide' how the
battery charge is progressing, then the inverter load will fool it into
'thinking' the battery is still accepting a higher current.

The final stage of a traditional 'equalizer' charge is to charge at a small,
low-gassing current and let the voltage rise till it rises no further. If
the inverter load is an appreciable fraction of this 'finishing current',
then you won't get a good equalizer charge.

daestrom
 
B

Bernd Felsche

What you say is true for chargers that *only* monitor the
battery-bus voltage. But if the charger also monitors the current
to 'decide' how the battery charge is progressing, then the
inverter load will fool it into 'thinking' the battery is still
accepting a higher current.
The final stage of a traditional 'equalizer' charge is to charge at
a small, low-gassing current and let the voltage rise till it rises
no further. If the inverter load is an appreciable fraction of
this 'finishing current', then you won't get a good equalizer
charge.

Valid point.

The nature of the battery monitoring is crucial. The chargers that
I've seen, integrated into MTTPs (Brusa), have set voltages for the
battery. And the charging behaviour is determined by voltage.

That seems a more reliable approach in view of the 'finishing
current' problem you describe.

Most automotive batteries only have 40% to 60% effective capacity
anyway, because they will not endure many cycles below about 50%.
Even "deep-cycle" lead-acid at best has 90% capacity working cycle;
with a limit of a few hundred cycles at best.

Then there's the problem of recovery efficiency. Lead-acid takes
100% of your energy, and even for the top-fraction of charge, will
only give back 70% to 90% of that; depending on how carefully you
feed and battery and draw the current back out.

The nett result is that, using a "standard:" 60Ah automotive
battery, its working capacity is closer to 30Ah, and to get those
30Ah, you have to put in about 40Ah.
 
R

Robert Morein

Bernd Felsche said:
Not difficult. The battery "bus" feeds the inverter... the charge
controller (MPPT, hopefully) connects to the battery bus. Power for
the inverter comes from the battery bus. As long as the charger's
voltage remains higher than the battery's, current will flow
"preferentially" from the PV array directly to the inverter. When
the inverter load rises, the charge controller will no longer be
able to maintain a higher voltage than that from the battery and
current will also be drawn from the battery.

Caveats:
1. the existing charger-inverter must have an appropriate terminal
for the battery to be connected.
2. the charger must "know" the charging profile of the connected
battery so as not to exceed maximum charge voltage during
various states of charge.
[snip]
In fact, I have consulted with both Xantrex and Samlex, and it is somewhat
more complicated.
What you say is true for two-stage chargers. However, for a three-stage
charger, an inverter load can fool the charger into staying in "boost" mode
indefinitely, which will boil the battery.
Given the difficulty of designing a charger that senses charge state, I
think it's fair to ask whether a SOURCE, such as a solar panel charge
controller, could confuse the charger.

A solar charge controller such as the Outback MX-60 can be programmed to
execute a three-step charging algorithm as well.
 
P

Pom-pom-pom

Robert Morein said:
(...)
Given the difficulty of designing a charger that senses charge state, I
think it's fair to ask whether a SOURCE, such as a solar panel charge
controller, could confuse the charger.
(...)

Naive question: don't they build intelligent devices that handle both
charger and inverter parts in a single box?
With adequate electronics, it should know what comes in and out then
optimize.
Is it complicated? Too expensive? ... or just not enough demand yet?
 
S

Steve Spence

charger and inverter, but not charge controller. the "charger" function is
for the generator to charge batteries while supplying house current. the
charge controller is to keep wind and pv from over charging batteries when
consumption is less than generation.

--
Steve Spence
Renewable energy and sustainable living
http://www.green-trust.org
Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel
powered diesels at
http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/
 
R

Robert Morein

Steve,
I'm not making this up. Both Xantrex and Samlex technicians warn about
this arrangement. If and when the inverter is drawing some amount of current
less than charger max that allows the charger to go into boost mode, it will
boil the batteries.

There's no point in debating how often this happens, because if it does,
it will kill the batteries.

Samlex chargers have an internal switch to disable boost mode,
specifically so an inverter can be connected while the charger is active.
Xantrex standalone chargers do not have this. However, Xantrex
charger-inverters have a firmware based menu that allows deselecting boost
mode.

A Xantrex SW 4024 has a 100 amp charger.
 
R

Robert Morein

Pom-pom-pom said:
Naive question: don't they build intelligent devices that handle both
charger and inverter parts in a single box?
With adequate electronics, it should know what comes in and out then
optimize.
Is it complicated? Too expensive? ... or just not enough demand yet?
Xantrex makes these devices, and they are very popular for standby power
systems: the SW4024, SW4048, SW5048, etc.
However, the Xantrex units do not simultaneously run the charger and
inverter. They have internal relays that switch the AC output of the unit
from line in to battery/inverter. When line in is active, the charger works
and the inverter is inactive.
 
S

Steve Spence

I don't have an integrated charger/inverter, so xantrex's comments don't
apply.

xantrex does run the inverter and the charger at the same time. when on
generator, the gen power is supplied to house, not inverter power.

notice what you are saying

"If and when the inverter is drawing some amount of current
less than charger max that allows the charger to go into boost mode, it will
boil the batteries."

and what I am saying

"> > with the inverter pulling more current than the charger provides
(typical)
are two different types of systems and scenarios. Mine happens a lot, your
scenario does not.

off grid homes usually have smaller chargers than their inverters.



--
Steve Spence
Renewable energy and sustainable living
http://www.green-trust.org
Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel
powered diesels at
http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/
 
R

Robert Morein

Steve Spence said:
I don't have an integrated charger/inverter, so xantrex's comments don't
apply.

xantrex does run the inverter and the charger at the same time. when on
generator, the gen power is supplied to house, not inverter power.
That's not my understanding, but since the AC load is switched away from the
inverter, it's a moot point. Xantrex says, "do not run an inverter while
using one of our chargers, because it will boil the batteries."
This might happen only 10% of the time, depending upon the usage pattern,
but the result is the same: ruined batteries.

notice what you are saying

"If and when the inverter is drawing some amount of current

and what I am saying

"> > with the inverter pulling more current than the charger provides
(typical)
Of course. But proper design/installation requires that the batteries not be
unintentionally boiled, even occasionally.

are two different types of systems and scenarios. Mine happens a lot, your
scenario does not.

off grid homes usually have smaller chargers than their inverters.
I understand that, but it's not good design practice for a system to even
occasionally boil the batteries.
Note that if your charge controller does not implement a a three-stage
charging algorithm, there's nothing to worry about. If the batteries are not
sealed, there's less to worry about.

Perhaps you're running a three stage charge controller and an inverter, and
feel the results are satisfactory. However, the charge regimes prescribed by
battery manufacturers for maximum battery life are extremely strict. If the
batteries are flooded types, I accept the possibility that such a system
could work well, even though the battery lifetime is shortened.

For sealed batteries, a three-stage charger tricked into boiling the
batteries even occasionally is a disaster. However, some brands of AGM
batteries prescribe a strict single stage constant voltage charge. This
would be completely compatible with simultaneous inverter use.
 
S

Steve Spence

That was supposed to be "xantrex doesn't run the inverter and the charger at
the same time"

typo
 
S

Steve Spence

If you have a 100 amp charger, and a 2000 watt inverter (166 amp load)
you'll likely never be putting more amps in to the batteries than you take
out, but we have beat this topic to death. you occasionally do want to
"boil" the batteries intentionally, is called equalizing .....

--
Steve Spence
[email protected]
http://www.beavercreekconsulting.com

typo, was supposed to say "doesn't", not "does"
 
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