Maker Pro
Maker Pro

I need 300 killowatts per month for household

T

Tim Thomson

m said:
(posting trimmed)

I'm curious why they won't let you put up a small wind generator in the land of
plenty. Sounds like a sinister corporate plot or something..

I've been to Pincher Creek and it's a wind gold mine.

mike (In Calgary)

I dont know what happenend there but just lately I have heard "No MORE BACK yard
turbines" kinda suks just when they are comming out with easy do it yourself kits
I do live right by the Forestry Helicopter pad though lol............so I kinda
figured I might have to keep it low. I do live in a sweet spot It can be blowing an
unusable 100 kmh on the hiway but a steady but 30-40kmh at my house.
 
T

Tim Thomson

Ron said:
Your questions are normal ones for someone who is just starting to learn
about solar energy. However, as you will see by the below analysis, you'd
be well served by doing some more research on the topic, in order to better
decide what tradeoffs you are willing to make.

But I'll try to go with your assumptions and the information you've
provided, to demonstrate what a system with those assumptions might look
like.

At another message, you wrote that you are at 50N 115W. I'm not sure
exactly what the insolation is there, and I get conflicting results from
different data sources for Edmonton, which is 53N 113W. Using the most
optimistic estimate, you have perhaps 2.5 effective sun hours (ESH) during
the worst month. Although you may have 5 hours of sunlight per day, your
panels cannot produce full power for that time. Hence the difference
between the time from sunrise to sunset, and the ESH or solar insolation.

I also assume that when you write 300 k watts per month you really mean 300
kWh/month.

That is 10 kWh/day.

To go further, is your 10 kWh/day what you want to PRODUCE, or is it what
you are CONSUMING. I suspect the latter, which means that you will need to
PRODUCE more than 10 kWh/day since no system is 100% efficient.

Also, are your loads AC or DC. Since you mention an inverter in another
post, I will assume your loads are all AC. The significance is that you
have to account for inverter inefficiencies.

A system which might supply your needs given the above assumptions:

1. Daily AC load = 10 kWh
2. Inverter losses = 15% (It might be even higher for your Brutus
inverter at low power levels, though).
3. Required production = 10/(1-15%) = 11.765 kWh/day

We're going to look at a 12V system since that's what your inverter is and
that is what you have mentioned. But a higher voltage system would be
preferable as your losses would be less.

4. 11.765 kWh/day @ 12V converted to daily ampere-hrs = 980Ah
5. System losses and safety factor multiplier = 1.2
6. Adjusted load = 1.2 * 980 = 1176 Ah/day

7. ESH = 2.5 (see above)
8. Required array current = 1176 / 2.5 = 471 amperes

You didn't supply the specifics on your solar panel, but assuming they have
an output current at maximum power of 0.9 amperes, you would require five
hundred twenty three (523) of your fifteen watt modules to reliably supply
your power needs.

At your latitude, some would recommend 10-12 days of battery storage.
Since even a high-quality deep discharge battery should not be discharged
to less than a 20% state of charge, you need, at 12V, a battery capacity of
about 14,700 ampere-hours. "How Many" batteries that would require depends
on the capacity of each one. Obviously, you need a large cell to supply
that much. Surrette makes a 2 Volt cell rated at about 2000Ah, so you
could probably get away with about 42 of them.

====================================

Cutting your load by 50% would also reduce your PV panel and battery
requirements a similar amount; although you would have to check on the
losses in the inverter at your lower power consumption to be sure of that.

================================

If I were setting up a PV system at your location, I would use a higher
nominal system voltage (probably 48V); larger PV panels (150-200 watts); a
more efficient inverter; and probably still use the heavy duty 2V cells for
the battery bank. I would also look at economics of a shorter battery
storage time vs longer running time of the backup generator.

==============================

-- ron (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Hey thanks ............something that makes more sense than a few of the other
replies.
All I thought I had to do was go too Canadian Tire and buy one of
there.......lol.
Any ways I allready figured out how to cut back on my power consumption by
allmost 400 khw per month by turning off most of my wall warts when I go to
work or sleep.
I did get shit from the Cable Co for not having my cable boxes powered up all
the time. They show up as none responders to their mother ship and got shut off
a few times in the last year. So I plugged them back in along with my favourite
cordless/anserwing machine, stove clock. micorwave clock etc....
Whats got me started with solar as a hobby is just being aware that over half
of my power bill was just having my wallwarts plugged in.
 
G

George Ghio

Tim there are any number of people who will sell you a set up with
batteries in series/parallel.

It's your money and you can do what you want with it. But if you want a
reliable system that will give you 15 - 20 years of battery life then
series/parallel is not the way to go.

As I pointed out series/parallel will work.

3 in parallel, if you are desperate, so strapped for cash you can't do
anything else, or stupid.

4 in parallel, well...
 
R

Roland Mösl

Tim Thomson said:
How many 15 watt/12 volt panels would it take to produce 300 k watts per
month?
How many batterries would be recommened for 300 k watts divided by 30 or
10 k watts a day? About five hours of sunlight per day.

4 are enough when You life on the sunny side of Merkur

It would be usefull to write where You life.
I assume at last on planet earth.
But also on earth are big differences

About Your power usage

What sort of computer are You using
 
T

Tim Thomson

Ron said:
Sounds like you've solved your problem! Since in your initial post you
were looking at requiring 300 kWh/month; and you've now reduced it by 400
kWh/month; you should be PRODUCING 100 kWh/month :)).
I used to use 800 kWh per month it's now near 300. When my house is in sleep
status the mains are pulling point 5 of an amp total across the two sides. The
fridge (new) pulls another 1 amp for 15 minutes than off for another hour.....(15
on 60 off)
Seriously, in looking at solar, in order to not waste time and money, it is
really important to keep your units and your math accurate. It's also
important to be accurate on your power consumption requirements, (and keep
that separate from your power generation requirements) since that is the
starting point of all calculations.

In addition, be aware that the nameplate ratings of your various appliances
have little, if anything, to do with the daily power consumption of that
appliance. You can certainly determine your present daily power
consumption from your electric meter. But to determine any individual
appliance consumption usually requires measurements by some kind of
wattmeter (of which there are several on the market).

I use an amp clamp at the mains lol I can reach them from my back deck
Some other steps to reduce electric power requirements include using
Compact Flourescent lights in place of incandescents; using a modern,
energy-efficient refrigerator; and avoiding the use of electricity for heat
generation (i.e. stove, dryer, water-heater).

Coleman makes a nice gas drip coffee maker. No auto shut off though... Yikes.
I dont like the light compacts give off. I am going to install some sky lights to
reduce day time lights though. The stove is gas....still gotta test it to see how
picky the oven ignighter is though, it might not like a dirty ac I hear. My total
gas bill is about 650.00 a year 180.00 of that is for gas the rest is fees. I
thought about ripping the gas meter off the wall but you should see the waiver you
have to sine to do that. They will come and remove thier gas line from the property
at thier expense. Guess what happens if you change your mind and want gas again. You
need a second mortage to hook up lol.
Power is another storie. When I moved from the big city to a small town I asked the
power co if the rates were the same. They said "yes they are" But what they didnt
tell me is that the adminastrative fees are triple for rural. Example my last bill
was 28.00 for energy and the total comes to 62.97 please. (could buy a nice genny
for 34.97 per month) That bill was for 469 kWh. That is why I was calculating
things high.
The house is undergoing renos and that month I needed more.
I could probably reduce my consumption to near 100 kWh per month but really a buck a
day for power is cheap allready. Its thier monthly fees that I want to replace with
wind/gen/solar.
 
W

wmbjk

Often the requirement is that you must put up your wind tower someplace
where it can't fall on someones home and (maybe) kill them. Often folks
find it easier to sleep at night without the worry of sudden death by
falling objects. Go figure. If the original poster lives too close to
their neighbors to allow this kind of space then they usually won't be
allowed to put up a tower. Yes, this often means they won't let you put
up a tower too close to your own house as well.

The only solution to that kind of thing is to move out of the city. :)

I wouldn't say it's the only solution. ;-) For instance, one might
put up a hefty tapered monopole (like a street light pole) with a
good-sized flag on it. That will be tall *and* noisy. After a few
months, add the turbine above the flag. If the neighbors complain,
offer to make the setup quieter by removing the flag. :)

Wayne
 
S

Steve Spence

Showing a example PV system is trolling?

I'm just doing a public service, warning the public that the evil
presence known as george is really an oil company exec trying to
sabotage their efforts to off-grid, <grin>

george is just flat out wrong on most of his advice (sometimes he agrees
with us, but it's rare). it's not trolling to point that out.

Steve Spence
Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org
Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net
http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html
 
W

wmbjk

Sorry Steve, and you were doing so well too.

Take your T105s and go golfing

This sort of *your*-money-is-no-object advice is best accompanied by
real-world experience. Please use the example you're most familiar
with of someone making bad decisions on batteries, resulting in
multiple replacements.
T105s have a twelve month warranty. This is a good indicator of what
Trojan thinks of the life expectancy of them.

No, it's not. Some people get 10 years out of 1 year warranted
batteries, and others get 1 year out of 10 year warranted batteries.
*Everyone* would prefer to use the highest quality available, but not
everyone can afford it, or justify it. T105s are quite viable, and
depending on budget, are often the best choice.

Wayne
 
O

Owen Robb

It's the MD of the CNP they got a stick up their ass just the last year..........No
more back yard turbines here! We are close to Pincher Creek but thats not part of
our world here.
Ah CNP the land of Red Mayors and bootleg politics did they ever
finish the proper servey of the town site (pick any of them) , I lived
in Blaremore for a couple of years in the late 80's could not belive
the BS.
Owen
 
T

Tim Thomson

Steve said:
If you look at the solar chart for your area, the amount of sun that
your panels care about is no more than 2.5 "full sun hours" per day.
That's what the numbers have to be based on. And that is best case
scenario. you get cloudy or rainy days, and everything goes out the window.
I am missing something here? Are you saying 2,5 hours without tracking the sun?

I ran some test with three 15 watt panels. I put them acroos a 12 volt car battery and I
get about 7 hours of usable sun in July if I make the panels follow the sun.
The amp clamp was telling me that peak is 3.8 amps DC going into the battery for four
hours and 2.xx for the rest of the day. Its all useable power.
 
T

Tim Thomson

Owen said:
Ah CNP the land of Red Mayors and bootleg politics did they ever
finish the proper servey of the town site (pick any of them) , I lived
in Blaremore for a couple of years in the late 80's could not belive
the BS.
Owen

Ya I hear about that sometimes. The communist ways of thinking are dying off.
Real estate just took a 30% or so jump here. Looks like another Canmore about to
happen. Allmost a zero vacancy rate right now.
 
G

George Ghio

alt.energy.home power - Multiple SLA batteries in parallel.

C.Foot - My recommendation would be: do not put 8 batteries in parallel!
It's asking for trouble. Seen it done, seen the hassles it can cause.
Two in parallel maybe, but preferably not even that. I'm sure everybody
in the NG will agree.....

Ron Rosenfeld - First of all, as others have written, paralleling
multiple batteries to
increase current output is not a good strategy. Your output will be
limited by the weakest battery, and the lifetime of the bank will be
shortened. This is due to the inevitable differences in internal
resistance that will develop over time. Two strings in parallel is
acceptable; three strings is borderline. You're better off with a single
string of the required current.

Vaughn- 8 batteries is a lot to parallel, a REAL lot. I can think of
no reason for
doing this unless you already have the batteries. I don't admit this
often, but
I have had 4 in parallel for several years and it works just fine, but I
agree
that it is not good practice. Why do I do it? Because I have the
batteries and
I got them for free! (and because they are matched, identical batteries)

If you have not already obtained the batteries, I suggest that you
buy
fewer, larger batteries, and/or go to a 24 volt or 48 volt system.


Robert - The other posters are correct.
Don't do this.
Your intuition might tell you that the load and wear will be shared equally
between the batteries, but this is not the case.
Batteries are close to constant-current devices. Minute differences between
the voltages of the batteries will cause a "pecking order", where the
strongest battery takes the beating.

Also, if these are gel cells, there is a real possibility that a short could
cause things to get very hot. Keep an axe handy to sever all the
connections!

The conventional wisdom is that no more that three batteries should be
paralleled, and that it's a second rate idea at that. A single string
completely eliminates the problem of battery imbalance.
 
N

Nelson Gietz

George Ghio said:
alt.energy.home power - Multiple SLA batteries in parallel.

C.Foot - My recommendation would be: do not put 8 batteries in parallel!
It's asking for trouble. Seen it done, seen the hassles it can cause.
Two in parallel maybe, but preferably not even that. I'm sure everybody
in the NG will agree.....

Ron Rosenfeld - First of all, as others have written, paralleling
multiple batteries to
increase current output is not a good strategy. Your output will be
limited by the weakest battery, and the lifetime of the bank will be
shortened. This is due to the inevitable differences in internal
resistance that will develop over time. Two strings in parallel is
acceptable; three strings is borderline. You're better off with a single
string of the required current.

Vaughn- 8 batteries is a lot to parallel, a REAL lot. I can think of
no reason for
doing this unless you already have the batteries. I don't admit this
often, but
I have had 4 in parallel for several years and it works just fine, but I
agree
that it is not good practice. Why do I do it? Because I have the
batteries and
I got them for free! (and because they are matched, identical batteries)

If you have not already obtained the batteries, I suggest that you
buy
fewer, larger batteries, and/or go to a 24 volt or 48 volt system.


Robert - The other posters are correct.
Don't do this.
Your intuition might tell you that the load and wear will be shared equally
between the batteries, but this is not the case.
Batteries are close to constant-current devices. Minute differences between
the voltages of the batteries will cause a "pecking order", where the
strongest battery takes the beating.

Also, if these are gel cells, there is a real possibility that a short could
cause things to get very hot. Keep an axe handy to sever all the
connections!

The conventional wisdom is that no more that three batteries should be
paralleled, and that it's a second rate idea at that. A single string
completely eliminates the problem of battery imbalance.
Just to show YMMV...
I acquired a complete system post Y2K, that someone had set up
expecting
the world to come to a halt. Battery complement was 20 golf cart batts.
with
five (!) parallel strings for 24V, 1100 Ah. No particular problems so far,
but
when the day comes to replace them, it'll probably be a single string if I
can do it.
Nelson
 
N

NotMe

"Tim Thomson"

| I could probably cut my needs in half by replacing my fridge with a
natural
| gas one if they make one that is.


Gas aka absorption cooling uses at least 4X the amount of BTU vs electric.
May not be cost effective.
 
Top