Hydrogen Gas for cooking

[Karl]

Karl, the first thing you need to do to enjoy this group is to kill file
eyeore. He's our token asshole. Frankly, I'd forgotten about him until
you
quoted his stuff.


this is the classic example of the arrogance of ignorance or IOW, not
knowing
enough to know what you don't know. HP magazine is like that. A lot.

Hydrogen is NOT easily transported. Pumping losses are a little less than
with methane but significantly higher than electrical transmission.
That's
ignoring the dismal efficiency of electrolysis. Hydrogen diffuses into
steel
causing something called hydrogen embrittlement. It makes steel become as
brittle as glass. There are alloys resistant to the effect but they don't
include the low carbon steel used in natural gas pipelines. Hydrogen
embrittlement is a problem with pipeline steel in the trace concentrations
found in natural gas.

Electrolysis, depending on the configuration and materials used, is
somewhere
around 20% efficient. A rule of thumb for today's grid is about 10% loss,
generator to outlet. It used to be less but the successful eco-nazi
against
new transmission lines has resulted in existing ones being overloaded with
correspondingly higher losses.

I could go on and on about that article but that gives you an idea of just
how
far off-base they are.

Yeah I knew there should be major issues. I think that induction type
burners actually sound ideal, just pricey right now.

I'll have to steer clear of that eyeore guy, though. Thanks

 

[Karl]

It's funny, but in another group, he actually makes useful, reasonable and
courteous suggestions.

Maybe it's just the subject. It might have some sort of importance to him.

 

[Karl]

=========================================
How about regular old methane? Natural gas? Get a couple of digesters
and double buffer a batch production process.

I think that probably is the best solution. San Antonio is doing that on a
big scale too. Think of all the useful crap we flush every day! All that
energy goes to waste! REALLY, I'm totally serious. You would think somehow
it would make economic sense to process that and make money off the methane
as opposed to disposal cost associated with sewage.

 

[sno]

=========================================
How about regular old methane? Natural gas? Get a couple of digesters
and double buffer a batch production process.

I think that probably is the best solution. San Antonio is doing that on a
big scale too. Think of all the useful crap we flush every day! All that
energy goes to waste! REALLY, I'm totally serious. You would think somehow
it would make economic sense to process that and make money off the methane
as opposed to disposal cost associated with sewage.

Detroit, Michigan when I was a kid (many years ago) used to collect and
run their sewer pumps using sewer gas (which I believe is methane). I
wonder if any cities are doing this today..??

have fun....sno

 

[Neon John]

That would solve that problem!

Not really. Consider

Spilled glop on the TC. Light off, fire still on.
TC opens from age and use. Light off, fire still on.
Fire just turned on. TC not hot yet. Light off, fire on.
Fire just turned off. TC still hot. Light on, fire off - false positive.
etc.

To have a fast enough response time, the TC would have to be so small and
lightweight that it would be fragile and short lived.

A possible solution would be a flame rod. As with many furnaces, the flame
rode can do dual duty as the igniter rod. It is still subject to
contamination by glop. Hopefully the glop would short the rod and fail safe.
I'd not bet on it.

I'm still having a bit of a problem imagining anything good enough and
fail-safe enough to satisfy the safety nazis AND be affordable and durable. I
think that some method of coloring the flame will be the solution. Perhaps a
burner designed with a ceramic lip designed to slowly ablate and add color. If
it is simultaneously designed to cause the burner to quit working when
depleted, it would be adequate, safety-nazi-wise. Such a ceramic cap could
conceivably last for decades.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.

 

[Neon John]

I guess hydrogen may appear but maybe not. I have to watch out for dropping
prices for induction ranges. I just hate those old electric coils burners.
They just don't last long, at least the new ones don't.

You might want to look for a stove that still uses the wide Calrod type
elements. Like this one:

http://www.neon-john.com/Files/files/RORT/Wide_Stove_eye.jpg

(damn, it doesn't look that soiled in person This is an eye on the stove
that my Dad bought Mom when I was born in 1954. We've replaced elements but
no more than one or two over the 50+ years of use. I know that the wide eyes
are still made because I've seen them. No idea what brand.

Be aware, however, that these big eyes are very unresponsive. I keep pieces
of perforated metal on the stove to put between the eye and pots or pans to
quickly vary the heat.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The profligate use of energy is the sign of a healthy, expanding civilization.
Conservation is a leap backward toward the caves.

 

[Eeyore]

Maybe it's just the subject. It might have some sort of importance to him.

I simply see nonsense when it's offered up. Hydrogen is so insane as to be
beyond belief.

Graham

 

[Karl]

Not really. Consider

Spilled glop on the TC. Light off, fire still on.
TC opens from age and use. Light off, fire still on.
Fire just turned on. TC not hot yet. Light off, fire on.
Fire just turned off. TC still hot. Light on, fire off - false positive.
etc.

To have a fast enough response time, the TC would have to be so small and
lightweight that it would be fragile and short lived.

A possible solution would be a flame rod. As with many furnaces, the
flame
rode can do dual duty as the igniter rod. It is still subject to
contamination by glop. Hopefully the glop would short the rod and fail
safe.
I'd not bet on it.

I'm still having a bit of a problem imagining anything good enough and
fail-safe enough to satisfy the safety nazis AND be affordable and
durable. I
think that some method of coloring the flame will be the solution.
Perhaps a
burner designed with a ceramic lip designed to slowly ablate and add
color. If
it is simultaneously designed to cause the burner to quit working when
depleted, it would be adequate, safety-nazi-wise. Such a ceramic cap
could
conceivably last for decades.

Well, I'll leave it up to the engineers. As it is I probably won't see
these things for a while anyway.

 

[Karl]

You might want to look for a stove that still uses the wide Calrod type
elements. Like this one:

http://www.neon-john.com/Files/files/RORT/Wide_Stove_eye.jpg

(damn, it doesn't look that soiled in person This is an eye on the
stove
that my Dad bought Mom when I was born in 1954. We've replaced elements
but
no more than one or two over the 50+ years of use. I know that the wide
eyes
are still made because I've seen them. No idea what brand.

They are still made? The elements too? I had a Tappan that my Mom would
still had that was 50 years old. She like it but I hate it because some of
the elements did go. Not from what you thing though. They had clips that
would fray and arc just a bit to destroy the couplings. And the crap that I
could replace them with don't last. They are cheesy.

She still has 3 elements that are 50 years old. I offer all the time to
replace it but she likes it!

Now I wonder what's up with the solid disk kind?

 

[William Wixon]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Karl" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 3:05 PM
Subject: Hydrogen Gas for cooking

I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has
it ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever
got cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use
gas for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
hyrdogen for a gas stove.

Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just
curious if this has been done or how feasible it is.

Thanks

sorry, i just got this from "nasa science news", i hoped it would be
humorous to post this link to this thread. too bad nasa wouldn't throw a
couple thermocouples in there to recycle some of that ("wasted") energy huh?
(joking) or maybe weenie roast and toast marshmallows. it amazes me they
can use (even though it's in liquid form) a low energy fuel (hydrogen) to
make more thrust than kerosene etc. and wow they use a lot of money huh?
(just burning up that much liquid hydrogen in that one test alone, how much
electricity would they have had to use to make X? gallons of liquid
hydrogen! whew!) (i'm not opposed to the space program, just i never really
realized how much it must cost to do just one test.)




NASA Science News for January 15, 2009
The last place you'd expect to find icicles is around the rim of a scalding
hot and thundering rocket engine. Yet an engine being used by NASA to
develop technologies for next-generation lunar landers has been caught
producing icicles of unlikely beauty. Watch the process in action in today's
story from Science@NASA.

FULL STORY at

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2009/15jan_cece.htm?list716163


photo.
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/16jul_cece.htm

 

[Dr Boets]

Making Hydrogen

I was wondering about hydrogen gas used as the fuel for a gas stove? Has it
ever been done? Gas is a better cooking fuel but if solar power ever got
cheap and it looks like it could happen, I for one would prefer to use gas
for cooking. So one should be able to use solar electricity and make
hyrdogen for a gas stove.

Yeah I know electric stoves work fine. I just prefer gas. I'm just curious
if this has been done or how feasible it is.

Thanks

Hi Dr Boets here

Yes it has been done and it is so easy to do.

You see the guy that said that it burns to hot was adding oxygen

You can basically push pure hydrogen through the stove and then just light it, it won’t flash back if it is pure hydrogen.

Even so you add a simple bubbler to stop the flame from flashing back into the reactor if you did something stupid like lighting the flame to early.

Let me give you an example, I made a unit that uses caustic soda and water to react with aluminium and the aluminium basically reacts to the water and produces aluminium oxide and the Hydrogin is freed and you can basically light the gas producing a nice long flame without to much heat, similar to LP or propane.

I can show you guys how to make a reactor like this that can produce enough gas from a 10kg of scrap aluminium to power a 1 ton car for 800KM with 50% of the energy coming from the reaction and another 50% of the energy is heat so you can heat water, cook with the hydrogen, run your generator on the gas (Easy to do conversion), Use in a fuel cell and all for free as scrap aluminium is abundant and contains 15 -20 times more energy then lead.

You can also make a simple buffer tank to store 100L or so under low pressure and then feed the tank from the reactor.

 

[Dr Boets]

Hi Karl

Yes it has been done and it is so easy to do.

You see the guy that said that it burns to hot was adding oxygen

You can basically push pure hydrogen through the stove and then just light it, it won’t flash back if it is pure hydrogen.

Even so you add a simple bubbler to stop the flame from flashing back into the reactor if you did something stupid like lighting the flame to early.

Let me give you an example, I made a unit that uses caustic soda and water to react with aluminium and the aluminium basically reacts to the water and produces aluminium oxide and the Hydrogin is freed and you can basically light the gas producing a nice long flame without to much heat, similar to LP or propane.

I can show you guys how to make a reactor like this that can produce enough gas from a 10kg of scrap aluminium to power a 1 ton car for 800KM with 50% of the energy coming from the reaction and another 50% of the energy is heat so you can heat water, cook with the hydrogen, run your generator on the gas (Easy to do conversion), Use in a fuel cell and all for free as scrap aluminium is abundant and contains 15 -20 times more energy then lead.

You can also make a simple buffer tank to store 100L or so under low pressure and then feed the tank from the reactor.