how to use eaglecad efficiently ?

[robb]

I am a hobbyist etcher.
i had been using Exress SCH/PCB (a freeware app from an express
pcb board shop)
a very light app, fast and easy but as one might expect express
does not print the top layer flipped as needed for a iron on mask
and make its very difficult to trick it, so yo either draw
flipped or do some image export, flip in a draw package and
resize etc

so it was suggested to try a real deal pkg like eagle.

I find it is taking much longer to construct things than in the
other.
- instead of 2 layers there are 50 ?
- there are wires and signals ? diff ?
- i find it difficult to change the wire/signal size ?
- the move is baffling me ? when i try to select something to
move it picks some other object not near the one i try to move.
- there seems to be is no generic SMD / SMT pads set so i could
just grab a SMT 1206 or SOIC 16-050 or sot-23 ? granted there is
a huge library set but i just need the generic SMT pads sizes
1218,1206,0805 and some sot and soic maybe a smt-lcc or qfp ,
leds etc.... and scrolling through the libraries is daunting
(read time consuming) ?

alot of people use eagle and reccomend it and it seems very
powerful/flexible....

So how do the users use eagle efficiently to solve the problmes
i have encountered ?

thanks for any helpful replies,
robb

 

[Rich Webb]

I am a hobbyist etcher.

Me, too.

[snip...snip...]

So how do the users use eagle efficiently to solve the problmes
i have encountered ?

I started using KiCad, a free (GPL) app. It's still a little new and
raw around the edges but I find it works great for homebrew projects.

The print dialog has a checkbox for "mirror."

Have also gotten Kicad boards done at "normal" fab houses (AP Circuits).

http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

 

[JeffM]

[...]so it was suggested to try a real deal pkg like eagle.

I find it is taking much longer to construct things[...]
http://myhome.spu.edu/bolding/EE4211/EagleTutorial4.htm

[...]
- the move is baffling me ?
when i try to select something to move
it picks some other object not near the one i try to move.
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=EAGLE+grid+ingroup:sci.electronics

[...]
and scrolling through the libraries is daunting
(read time consuming) ?

Welcome to the world of ECAD.
Libraries can be a bitch--no matter whose software you use.

 

[D from BC]

I am a hobbyist etcher.
i had been using Exress SCH/PCB (a freeware app from an express
pcb board shop)
a very light app, fast and easy but as one might expect express
does not print the top layer flipped as needed for a iron on mask
and make its very difficult to trick it, so yo either draw
flipped or do some image export, flip in a draw package and
resize etc

so it was suggested to try a real deal pkg like eagle.

I find it is taking much longer to construct things than in the
other.
- instead of 2 layers there are 50 ?
- there are wires and signals ? diff ?
- i find it difficult to change the wire/signal size ?
- the move is baffling me ? when i try to select something to
move it picks some other object not near the one i try to move.

The pcb app I use has object selection control buttons.
Ex: If I'm only moving traces, I disable selecting parts.

- there seems to be is no generic SMD / SMT pads set so i could
just grab a SMT 1206 or SOIC 16-050 or sot-23 ? granted there is
a huge library set but i just need the generic SMT pads sizes
1218,1206,0805 and some sot and soic maybe a smt-lcc or qfp ,
leds etc.... and scrolling through the libraries is daunting
(read time consuming) ?

alot of people use eagle and reccomend it and it seems very
powerful/flexible....

So how do the users use eagle efficiently to solve the problmes
i have encountered ?

thanks for any helpful replies,
robb

D from BC

 

[Marra]

I use a PCBCAD program I got off ebay for less than £20.
It allows mirroring and inverting of the print.

 

[JeffM]

"Marra" (aka Wrighty aka Nigel Wright aka nigelwright7557

[SPAM] (again)

If this jerk's deceitful method
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:Astroturfing
of posting advertisements for his product
http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=PCBCAD21+OR+PCBCAD17+OR+PCBCAD&scoring=d&filter=0&num=100
don't tip you off,
here's more about how he would likely treat a request for support:

**Know your vendor (a real jerk)**
http://groups.google.com/group/sci....t-or-request-for-assistance-with-his-software

 

[robb]

I am a hobbyist etcher.

Me, too.

[snip...snip...]

So how do the users use eagle efficiently to solve the problmes
i have encountered ?

I started using KiCad, a free (GPL) app. It's still a little new and
raw around the edges but I find it works great for homebrew projects.

The print dialog has a checkbox for "mirror."

Have also gotten Kicad boards done at "normal" fab houses (AP Circuits).

http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/
http://kicad.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Thanks for info Rich,

i think i tried or was going to try Kicad but they only had a
LINUX version ? Maybe i am mistaken i see they have windows
binaries. well i 'll take a look.

thanks for info ,
robb

 

[robb]

[...]so it was suggested to try a real deal pkg like eagle.

I find it is taking much longer to construct things[...]
http://myhome.spu.edu/bolding/EE4211/EagleTutorial4.htm

[...]
- the move is baffling me ?
when i try to select something to move
it picks some other object not near the one i try to move.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=EAGLE+grid+ingroup:sci.electronics

[...]
and scrolling through the libraries is daunting
(read time consuming) ?

Welcome to the world of ECAD.
Libraries can be a bitch--no matter whose software you use.

Thanks for help Jeff,
I suppose i just need to use it to get used to the interface , as
with most apps.
more flexibility translates to bigger learning curve.

thanks for help,
robb

 

[Rich Webb]

i think i tried or was going to try Kicad but they only had a
LINUX version ? Maybe i am mistaken i see they have windows
binaries. well i 'll take a look.

You may be thinking of the gEDA suite, another GPL schematic
capture and board layout app. DJ Delorie, one of gEDA's
developers, is around the group here fairly often. AFAIK, the
gEDA suite is only supported on Linux and relatives but I
seem to recall that a MS Windows port is under consideration.

 

[DJ Delorie]

You may be thinking of the gEDA suite, another GPL schematic capture
and board layout app. DJ Delorie, one of gEDA's developers, is
around the group here fairly often.
Yup.

AFAIK, the gEDA suite is only supported on Linux and relatives but I
seem to recall that a MS Windows port is under consideration.

Linux and Mac OS/X are well supported. Windows works, but there are
some rough edges we haven't dealt with yet.

 

[robb]

The pcb app I use has object selection control buttons.
Ex: If I'm only moving traces, I disable selecting parts.

D from BC

Thanks for reply D,
The app i was using had object selection and then choose
opertation to perform....
where eagle is more an operation mode select and then you apply
the operation to the objects .

so i am continually applying unintended opertations to objects
like rotations and moves that were un intended alwys scrambling
things.

robb

 

[JeffM]

i think i tried or was going to try Kicad
but they only had a LINUX version ?

Rich Webb wrote:
:You may be thinking of the gEDA suite
:
Webb got it in one, I think.

Maybe i am mistaken i see they have windows binaries.

Yup. The KiCAD developers support Linux & Windoze.

In addition, Lothar Behrens has ported KiCAD to OS X:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...on.*.OS.X+some.issues.with.*.executable.names

Bostjan Jerko also has an OS X port he calls YAVOK
(Yet Another Version Of KiCAD):
http://www.japina.eu/blog-eng/index.php
My now-dead Google Cache of that page
highlighted the fact that he had to split it into 2 executables
--one for PPC and another for x86.

There is also a Solaris port of KiCAD:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...t+depend+unstable.tree+EDA.CAD.software.suite

 

[Brett Holden]

Hello, robb!
You wrote on Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:57:59 -0500:

r> so it was suggested to try a real deal pkg like eagle.

r> I find it is taking much longer to construct things than in the
r> other.
r> - instead of 2 layers there are 50 ?
r> - there are wires and signals ? diff ?
r> - i find it difficult to change the wire/signal size ?
r> - the move is baffling me ? when i try to select something to
r> move it picks some other object not near the one i try to move.
r> - there seems to be is no generic SMD / SMT pads set so i could
r> just grab a SMT 1206 or SOIC 16-050 or sot-23 ? granted there is
r> a huge library set but i just need the generic SMT pads sizes
r> 1218,1206,0805 and some sot and soic maybe a smt-lcc or qfp ,
r> leds etc.... and scrolling through the libraries is daunting
r> (read time consuming) ?

r> alot of people use eagle and reccomend it and it seems very
r> powerful/flexible....

r> So how do the users use eagle efficiently to solve the problmes
r> i have encountered ?

Ahh, the joys of using low-end PCB software. Thank you for the opportunity
to vent.
The default menus for things like pad and hole diameters, and line width
that Eagle starts with are useless in my opinion, but Eagle does allow users
to run a script to set user preferences. I do so on EVERY instance of
opening a new library for editing, or starting a new schematic or PCB
editing session. I will send you a copy of my script if you want. reply by
PM.

There is not enough flexibility or intelligence in Eagle's system of
programming hotkeys. I want a keystroke combination to do different things -
depending on whether I am editing a library symbol or a footprint. Cadsoft
could very easily offer that, but they do not, and so I wrote a script that
I run time and time again. You want efficiency? Well don't hold your breath,
but it can get the job done.

I think their next regular release should no longer highlight a nearby part
after clicking "change text", and it won't highlight a wire when you want to
change diameter of a pad, etc. etc.

This is how absurd ver 4.16 can be:
Me:"Go get me a screwdriver".
Eagle: "This one?"
Me: "No, not a hammer. No, not that saw... , and not that wrench...
.. There, yes that's the screwdriver!"

So, ver 5 will be less incredibly stupid? I'll save my money. The new
library browser is supposed to be easier to use, but that is not necessarily
saying much. Will parts editing be any easier? I just got done spending an
incredible amount of time customizing my Eagle 4.16 libraries. Most of that
time was spent entering redundant text - because of Eagle's insistance on
entering "Variant" names. The name could be gleaned from the package name,
but they are assholes. GRRRRR.
I have heard that Easy-PC is the way to go but It will have to wait, because
my finances are a little tight.

With best regards, Brett Holden. E-mail: [email protected]

 

[Leon]

Hello, robb!
You wrote  on Sun, 6 Jan 2008 14:57:59 -0500:

 r> so it was suggested to try a real deal pkg like eagle.

 r> I find it is taking much longer to construct things than in the
 r> other.
 r> - instead of 2 layers there are 50 ?
 r> - there are wires and signals ? diff ?
 r> - i find it difficult to change the wire/signal size ?
 r> - the move is baffling me ? when i try to select something to
 r> move it picks some other object not near the one i try to move.
 r> - there seems to be  is no generic SMD / SMT pads set  so i could
 r> just grab a SMT 1206 or SOIC 16-050 or sot-23 ?  granted there is
 r> a huge library set but i just need the generic SMT pads sizes
 r> 1218,1206,0805 and some sot and soic maybe a smt-lcc or qfp ,
 r> leds  etc.... and scrolling through the libraries is daunting
 r> (read time consuming) ?

 r> alot of people use eagle and reccomend  it and it seems  very
 r> powerful/flexible....

 r> So how do the users use eagle efficiently  to solve the problmes
 r> i have encountered ?

Ahh, the joys of using low-end PCB software. Thank you for the opportunity
to vent.
The default menus for things like pad and hole diameters, and line width
that Eagle starts with are useless in my opinion, but Eagle does allow users
to run a script to set user preferences. I do so on EVERY instance of
opening a new library for editing, or starting a new schematic or PCB
editing session.  I will send you a copy of my script if you want. replyby
PM.

There is not enough flexibility or intelligence in Eagle's system of
programming hotkeys. I want a keystroke combination to do different things-
depending on whether I am editing a library symbol or a footprint. Cadsoft
could very easily offer that, but they do not, and so I wrote a script that
I run time and time again. You want efficiency? Well don't hold your breath,
but it can get the job done.

I think their next regular release should no longer highlight a nearby part
after clicking "change text", and it won't highlight a wire when you want to
change diameter of a pad, etc. etc.

This is how absurd ver 4.16 can be:
   Me:"Go get me a screwdriver".
      Eagle: "This one?"
         Me: "No, not a hammer. No, not that saw... , and not that wrench...
. There, yes that's the screwdriver!"

So, ver 5 will be less incredibly stupid?  I'll save my money. The new
library browser is supposed to be easier to use, but that is not necessarily
saying much. Will parts editing be any easier? I just got done spending an
incredible amount of time customizing my Eagle 4.16 libraries. Most of that
time was spent entering redundant text - because of Eagle's insistance on
entering "Variant" names.  The name could be gleaned from the package name,
but they are assholes.    GRRRRR.
I have heard that Easy-PC is the way to go but It will have to wait, because
my finances are a little tight.

With best regards, Brett Holden.  E-mail: [email protected]

Easy-PC is much easier to use. Advanced Circuits supply a free version
of it called "PC Artist".

Leon

 

[Joel Koltner]

"Easy-PC is much easier to use. Advanced Circuits supply a free version
of it called "PC Artist"."

The O.P. might also like to know that Easy-PC is the "little brother" of
Pulsonix -- although I believe they started life as two separate programs,
development is done by the same company now and hence there are a lot of
similarities.

 

[JeffM]

Bearing in mind TANSTAAFL.

While Advanced Circuits is a respected company
and PC Artist is less onerous than other lock-in-ware
(Pad2Pad, PCB123, ExpressPCB), it is still in that category.

Joel's earlier post with details:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci....+*-slightest-*-change-*-*-*+Advanced.Circuits
Joerg added details about Advanced Circuits and NRE.

 

[Brett Holden]

I badmouth Eagle sometimes because I think their wonks don't listen. They
have a suggestions newsgroup, but the vast majority of suggestions go
unanswered and it seems like most underlying cause for the complaints remain
unfixed. But I use it because I know it; but also in it's own way,
(-whatever that is-) it is very good. I am looking at other packages, but it
is hard to change old habits.

Here is the script that I run to setup my workspace. Save to the SCR folder
and invoke by clicking >File >Script > (BRD-SCH-PAC-SYM_edit.scr)


It is good that Eagle has this capability, but I sometimes wonder, "why is
this necessary"?
****************************************************************************
# BRD-SCH-PAC-SYM_edit.scr
# Describes diferent BRD, SCH, PAC,and SYM editors grid settings.
# Use instead of "Assign" keyboard shortcuts. Otherwise, there is no
difference between PAC and SYM settings.
######################################################
# Run this script after switching between PAC and SYM and editors
# to eliminate compromised optimal grid settings
# and lessen the need to memorize keyboard shortcuts that
# cannot be performed with one hand.
# As you determine your preferences, change the menues.
# Also run for SCH and PCB editing.

pac:
assign C+A 'grid in; grid .025 2 on'
assign C+Q 'grid in; grid .0125 4 on'
assign C+s 'grid in; grid .00625 8 on'
assign C+w 'grid in; grid .003125 16 on'
assign C+d 'grid in; grid .0015625 32 on'
assign C+e 'grid in; grid .00078125 64 on'
assign C+f 'grid in; grid .000390625 128 on'
assign A+m 'grid mm; grid 1 1 on'
assign A+n 'grid mm; grid .5 2 on'
assign A+b 'grid mm; grid .25 4 on'
assign A+v 'grid mm; grid .125 8 on'
assign A+c 'grid mm; grid .05 20 on'
assign A+d 'grid mm; grid .1 10 on'
assign C+z 'grid last'
assign C+X 'grid default on'
assign A+X 'grid .1 10 on'
set width_menu .086 .076 .066 .056 .050 .040 .032 .028 .024 .020 .016 .012
..01 .008 .006 .005;
set smd_menu 0.012 x0.00 0.016 x0.008 0.024 x0.012 0.024 x0.086 0.032 x0.016
0.04 x0.02 0.05 x0.025 0.055 x0.028 0.066 x0.032 0.07 x0.036 0.076 x0.038
0.086 x0.042 0.1 x0.05;
set diameter_menu .155 .143 .132 .12 .112 .108 .104 .100 .096 .092 .090 .086
..082 .075 .0675 .052;
set drill_menu .028 .032 .033 .035 .036 .040 .043 .0465 .0472 .051 .055 .060
..0635 .067 .072 .076;

sym:
assign C+A 'grid in; grid .05 2 on'
assign C+q 'grid in; grid .025 4 on'
assign C+s 'grid in; grid .0125 8 on'
assign C+w 'grid in; grid .00625 16 on'
assign C+d 'grid in; grid .003125 32 on'
assign C+e 'grid in; grid .0015625 64 on'
assign C+f 'grid in; grid .00078125 128 on'
assign C+z 'grid last'
assign C+X 'grid default on'
set width_menu .01 .086 .076 .066 .050 .040 .032 .028 .024 .020 .016 .012
..01 .006 .005;

brd:
assign C+A 'grid in; grid .025 2 on'
assign C+Q 'grid in; grid .0125 4 on'
assign C+s 'grid in; grid .00625 8 on'
assign C+w 'grid in; grid .003125 16 on'
assign C+d 'grid in; grid .0015625 32 on'
assign C+e 'grid in; grid .00078125 64 on'
assign A+m 'grid mm; grid 1 1 on'
assign A+n 'grid mm; grid .5 2 on'
assign A+b 'grid mm; grid .25 4 on'
assign A+v 'grid mm; grid .125 8 on'
assign A+c 'grid mm; grid .0625 16 on'
assign A+d 'grid mm; grid .03125 32 on'
assign A+e 'grid mm; grid .015625 64 on
assign C+z 'grid last'
assign C+X 'grid default on'
set width_menu .1 .08 .06 .050 .048 .040 .0375 .03 .025 .024 .020 .015 .0125
..01 .008 .006;
set diameter_menu .155 .143 .132 .12 .112 .108 .104 .100 .096 .092 .090 .086
..082 .075 .0675 .052;
set drill_menu .028 .032 .033 .035 .036 .040 .043 .0465 .0472 .051 .055 .060
..0635 .067 .072;

sch:
#grid alternate .0125 16 on;
assign C+A 'grid in; grid .05 2 on'
assign C+q 'grid in; grid .025 4 on'
assign C+s 'grid in; grid .0125 8 on'
assign C+w 'grid in; grid .00625 16 on'
assign C+d 'grid in; grid .003125 32 on'
assign C+e 'grid in; grid .0015625 64 on'
assign C+f 'grid in; grid .00078125 128 on'
assign C+z 'grid last'
assign C+X 'grid default off'
set width_menu .01 .086 .076 .066 .050 .040 .032 .028 .024 .020 .016 .012
..01 .006 .005;

################################
# PERSONAL NOTES
# use .0675 diameter for DIP pads *** cha dia .0675 ***
# use .052 dia for TO92 transistor-inline pins (long shape) *** cha dia
..052 ***
#end


With best regards, Brett Holden. E-mail: [email protected]

 

[Marra]

Eagle is just so way out of date it is almost unusable.

It reminds me a lot of early EasyPC.
But easyPC has moved on by miles.

Eagle is still stuck in the days of DOS and thast probably where it
originated.

I would go for a modern Windows package.
There is usually something on ebay for a few pounds.

 

[Joel Koltner]

I would go for a modern Windows package.
There is usually something on ebay for a few pounds.

GEE, MARRA, COULD YOU SUGGEST A TITLE???

I bet I can guess what you'll say...

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

GEE, MARRA, COULD YOU SUGGEST A TITLE???

I bet I can guess what you'll say...

Is it burnt to a mini CDROM, and packed in a recycled Hormel
"Shoulder of Pork And Ham" can?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida