Maker Pro
Maker Pro

How to get a strong signal over a long distance

Hi,

Just wondering how can a single picture travel over long distances such as 1km and not lose its accuracy? i know it involves a large amount of voltage as low doses couldn't travel far.

So in short what i know is that the distance a single image can travel is dependant on how much power is being put through.

Can you tell me how much power would i need to accurately make a single image travel up to 1 km?

Thanks
 
are you talking wirelessly?
Wired?
How much data are you talking here?

Do you mean a remote camera of some sort?


Yes wirelessly. Just small kilo bytes possibly 1 megabyte max. Not a remote camera, just sending an image that's on the memory to a destination 1km away and having it appear at the end. Do you think there is alot of power involved?
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Do you think there is alot of power involved?

No.

Sufficient power is required to maintain a high enough snr to allow communication at the desired rate. With good error correction, you can push your signal close and closer into the noise.

I was able to transmit data at about 2mbit/s over a link of 20km using about 100mW. And my link was nothing special. So, no, not much power is required.
 
No.

Sufficient power is required to maintain a high enough snr to allow communication at the desired rate. With good error correction, you can push your signal close and closer into the noise.

I was able to transmit data at about 2mbit/s over a link of 20km using about 100mW. And my link was nothing special. So, no, not much power is required.

What is snr? Also, what do you mean by "pushing the signal closer and closer into the noise"?

If i am using an image to transmit, how is that related?
 

Harald Kapp

Moderator
Moderator
SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio
You need the signal to be stronger than the noise to make it discernible.

To "push the signal into the noise" means to lower the signal to noise ratio. In other words, to increase the noise.

There are even transmission schemes that allow SNR < 1. But the highger the snr, the lower the effort to transmit the data.

Also the data rate is important. If you can afford a low data rate, you can use lots of redundancy to protect the data from corruption by noise.
In the extreme, use sneakernet
 
SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio
You need the signal to be stronger than the noise to make it discernible.

To "push the signal into the noise" means to lower the signal to noise ratio. In other words, to increase the noise.

There are even transmission schemes that allow SNR < 1. But the highger the snr, the lower the effort to transmit the data.

Also the data rate is important. If you can afford a low data rate, you can use lots of redundancy to protect the data from corruption by noise.
In the extreme, use sneakernet


Ok Cool. So i did the calculation on this website: http://ncalculators.com/statistics/signal-noise-ratio-calculation.htm

I think i got this right, so SNR = Signal / Noise which means SNR = 500 Mhz / 150 db

Right? I mean this is just a guess of what you guys are telling me. If it is true, great but i still don't know how far my example will go in terms of meters.
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
No, if your received signal is at -72db and the noise is -75db then your signal to noise ratio is 3db.

This is a ratio because levels in db are logarithms, so to divide one by the other you subtract them.

Saying that the SNR is 3db simply means that the amplitude of the signal is twice the amplitude of the total noise (and that may include noise in the transmitted signal, background noise, and noise in the receiver, although the latter two are generally the most important).
 
No, if your received signal is at -72db and the noise is -75db then your signal to noise ratio is 3db.

This is a ratio because levels in db are logarithms, so to divide one by the other you subtract them.

Saying that the SNR is 3db simply means that the amplitude of the signal is twice the amplitude of the total noise (and that may include noise in the transmitted signal, background noise, and noise in the receiver, although the latter two are generally the most important).

Ok cool. So basically when Harald Kapp said this

SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio
You need the signal to be stronger than the noise to make it discernible.

To "push the signal into the noise" means to lower the signal to noise ratio. In other words, to increase the noise.

There are even transmission schemes that allow SNR < 1. But the highger the snr, the lower the effort to transmit the data.

Also the data rate is important. If you can afford a low data rate, you can use lots of redundancy to protect the data from corruption by noise.
In the extreme, use sneakernet

in relation to "push the signal into the noise", he was talking about increasing the amplitude of the noise. Am i right? And when he said "the higher the SNR, the lower the effort to transmit the data" he meant that the lower the SNR the more distance it will cover. Am i on the right track?
 

KrisBlueNZ

Sadly passed away in 2015
Signal-to-noise ratio is a measurement of the cleanness of the signal at the receiver.

If you have a nice powerful transmitter, with a good antenna, and a good-quality receiver, also with a good antenna, and not too much distance between them, you will get a good clean signal out of the receiver. This signal will have a high SNR.

For example:
Saying that the SNR is 3db simply means that the amplitude of the signal is twice the amplitude of the total noise [...].

Modems will generally have a problem receiving a signal with an SNR of only 3 dB, especially at higher data rates. An SNR of 10 dB is a lot easier to work with.

This is all a bit academic anyway at this stage. You need to decide how to transmit the images. You can get low-power radio transceivers that will connect to each other and establish a data link, but I don't know if you'll get a 1 km range with them. You might need special antennas and a line-of-sight between them. You will also need some program logic to send and receive the data, possibly with error checking and retries if the radios don't do that for you.
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
in relation to "push the signal into the noise", he was talking about increasing the amplitude of the noise.

No, reducing the signal. There's generally not much you can do (directly) about noise)

Power is irrelevant. What is important is that you can discern the signal at the receiver.

The higher the SNR, the higher the data rate and the lower the error rate.

On top of that you can add error detection/correction protocols (which may involve retransmitting lost or corrupted data) which allow for a higher error rate (and thus lower SNR).

he meant that the lower the SNR the more distance it will cover. Am i on the right track?

Kinda. the SNR will be a limiting factor on your range. At some (presumably low) SNR you will not be able to achieve the speed you require.

As the distance between the transmitter and the receiver doubles, the signal will reduce to at most a quarter of its strength (by at least 6db). However, the noise will likely stay the same. So, your SNR will reduce by at least 6db for each doubling of distance. (that's an inverse square law)

If you have a transmitter/receiver pair that achieve a SNR of 60db at a distance of 10 metres, and require a SNR of 18db to maintain the data rate you desire, then your maximum range will be: 10 metres * 2^((60-18)/6) = 10 * 2^7m = 1.28 km

Your actual path losses can be greater. If you do not have line of sight, there will be losses due to absorption (say by trees) and reflection (it's not perfect). In addition t that, reflections can cause multipath distortion (especially at higher frequencies) and attenuation of the signal by subtractive interference -- causes dead spots).

You can increase your SNR by concentrating your signal, or by increasing the effective aperture of the receiving antenna (both actually mean the same thing).

So, without changing power, a transmitter using an antenna with 6db of gain, and a receive antenna with 3db of gain will increase the SNR by 9db.

Unfortunately, the coax you connect to the antenna will have losses, and so will connectors, etc.

For longer distances, you need to (typically) have antenna gain (especially receive antenna gain -- and I'll explain why later) and reduce losses/noise.

Picking a "good" frequency can help as one with lower noise is going to be better. Clearly you're constrained by the legal technicalities here, but even so, you can monitor the available frequencies to pick the "best" one.

Reducing losses in coax (typically making runs short and using good coax) is a "free" way to get more range.

(Oh, I didn't mention polarisation either)

Increasing transmitter antenna gain is good, but remember that this (a) makes it directional, and (b) increases EIRP which may have legal limitations. It is EIRP that generally limits your transmitter antenna's gain unless you want an omnidirectional antenna.

EIRP means that if you're putting 100mW into an antenna with 10db gain, it's like putting 1W into an isotropic (theoretical and perfectly omnidirectional) antenna. It only looks that way from one direction perhaps, but this is typically legally limited. Where I am, it is limited to 4W at 2.4GHz, so a 21db gain antenna (which I have on my roof) is limited to a maximum radiated power of about 30mW

Once you have this theoretical knowledge, you need to apply it to real life.

I suggest you look at some RF modules, probably looking at those with sensitive receivers. I would start with the NRF24L01 modules. These are good for several reasons:

1) they're cheap
2) they have library support for many uCs
3) there are (more expensive) versions with antenna connections
4) there are even versions with amplifiers (both receive and transmit)
5) they operate on spectrum that can legally be used in most places
6) they have inbuilt error correction protocols. You don't need to do it yourself.
7) you have control of the data rate so you can extend the range by reducing it.
 
No, reducing the signal. There's generally not much you can do (directly) about noise)

Power is irrelevant. What is important is that you can discern the signal at the receiver.

The higher the SNR, the higher the data rate and the lower the error rate.

I suggest you look at some RF modules, probably looking at those with sensitive receivers. I would start with the NRF24L01 modules. These are good for several reasons:
.

Thanks for the info. So basically transmitting kilobytes to 1 km in distance won't have as much loss as higher data rates like mb?

Also howcome there are Carrier to Noise ratios and what do they do different to Signals to Noise ratios? I had a look and they both seem similar.
 
Thanks for the info. So basically transmitting kilobytes to 1 km in distance won't have as much loss as higher data rates like mb?

Also howcome there are Carrier to Noise ratios and what do they do different to Signals to Noise ratios? I had a look and they both seem similar.
1 KB and 1MB are not data rates, they are amounts of data. A rate is an amount per unit time. If you want to transmite 1KB in 1 second or 1 MB in 1 second, then yes, the 1MB will be much harder to achieve. But if you want to transmit 1KB in 1 second and 1MB in 1000 sec, the data rate and error rates are the same.

Bob
 
1 KB and 1MB are not data rates, they are amounts of data. A rate is an amount per unit time. If you want to transmite 1KB in 1 second or 1 MB in 1 second, then yes, the 1MB will be much harder to achieve. But if you want to transmit 1KB in 1 second and 1MB in 1000 sec, the data rate and error rates are the same.

Bob

Ok, so for example, you're saying that if i wanted to transmit 500 kb per 10 seconds across in a distance of about 1km, i'd be needing a transmitter/receiver which can achieve a total output of at least (for example) 60 dbm SNR with a required rate of (for example) 18 dbm to maintain the data rate of 10 seconds for 500 kb.

Is that correct?
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
dBm is a measure of power, it is not a unit for describing snr.

Secondly, you can't say anything about power unless you know the noise levels, the gain of the antenna systems, the receiver sensitivity, and the capabilities of the protocol. And that's pretty much what we've been saying from the beginning.

So, no, it's not correct.
 
dBm is a measure of power, it is not a unit for describing snr.

Secondly, you can't say anything about power unless you know the noise levels, the gain of the antenna systems, the receiver sensitivity, and the capabilities of the protocol. And that's pretty much what we've been saying from the beginning.

So, no, it's not correct.

ok i found an example. here's the details:

(it is 2.4 Ghz TX/RX)
Voltage = DC 12 V
Current = 1300mA
Operational Freq = 983-1280MHz
Distance (open environment) = 1000 - 2000 m (LOS)
Video output = 1 Vp-p (FM)
Audio output = 1 Vp-p (FM)
Audio carrier Ware = 5.5M 6.0M
Temperature = - 20C - + 50C

link = http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/519984319/2_4G_wireless_receiver_high_power.html?s=p

Now i know this is for video/audio but what do you think the specs are for sending just an image worth 10 kilobytes for up to 1km?

I'm not sure about the antenna gain though but i found an example:

It says it is using a frequency of 3.6 - 30 Mhz
Power Gain = 7dbi at 3.6 Mhz
10.5 dbi at 30 Mhz
Polarization = Horizontal
Input impendence = 50 Ohms

Link (on Page 2) = http://www.antenna.be/tci-540.pdf

Also this one for antennas (on Page 10) =

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/wir...9n/administration/guide/HGA9N_AG_OL-20327.pdf

From Access Point to Client devices Only

Data Rate = 11 Mbps
Distance = 0.88 km .55 miles

Data rate = 54 Mbps
Distance = 0.12 km 0.078 miles

reference

"We use 9dBi peak antenna gain and assume 0dBi antenna gain at the client device. Link budget is set to 10dB to include radio wave attenuations from different types of objects in the path (the actual value may vary)."

Question: Does the antenna have to be in accordance with the TX / RX transmittance range? Also what attenuations is it referring to?

Last example link = http://www.usr.com/files/6013/8418/8968/548x-wp.pdf
 
I found this link on the web for 'normal' bridge Wifi access with various ranges. I suspect it might be expensive, but you could give them a call and find out as it is a packaged solution that will connect easily to your PC, requiring no development work.
WaveSIGHT
They produce units with ranges well beyond your needs.

From the progression of this thread it seems like you might be better off with a packaged solution.
 
Last edited:

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Now i know this is for video/audio but what do you think the specs are for sending just an image worth 10 kilobytes for up to 1km?

I'm not going to say this again.

It depends on transmission speed not the volume of data you want to send.

If you format your data as a video signal then the first method you give would work. I'm not sure if it would transmit the image without loss, but that's another issue.

Question: Does the antenna have to be in accordance with the TX / RX transmittance range?

I have no idea what you're asking

Also what attenuations is it referring to?

I've mentioned these before, I'm not going to repeat myself.
 
I'm not going to say this again.

It depends on transmission speed not the volume of data you want to send.

If you format your data as a video signal then the first method you give would work. I'm not sure if it would transmit the image without loss, but that's another issue.



I have no idea what you're asking



I've mentioned these before, I'm not going to repeat myself.


Ok i went and did some reading.

So this means that the higher the SNR, the more time it takes to send but less error rate due to increased speed right?

I did a calculation on an example (just so i understood) where the TX/RX could achieve a SNR of 60 db at a distance of 50 metres and required a SNR of 18 db to maintain the data rate i desired : 50 x 2^(60-18)/6) = 50 x 2^7m = 6.40 km max range which is pretty cool.

With an TX antenna gain of 6 db and an RX gain of 3 db (like you said i calculated:

50 x 2^(69-18)/6) = 50 x 2^8.5m = 12.8 km :) I tried it with your example below:

10 x 2^(69-18)/6) = 10 x 2^8.5m = 2.56 km

So pretty much all i need is a TX/RX, a frequency (e.g. fiber optic), an antenna, power source, and something to transmit. Am i now on the right track?
 
So this means that the higher the SNR, the more time it takes to send but less error rate due to increased speed right?

You have to do a lot more reading as you still do not have the relationship between the different concepts.

I still suggest you look at a packaged solution.
 
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