Maker Pro
Maker Pro

How do I protect my design from being RIPPED OFF?

R

rylmp2k1

I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?
..
Thanks
rylmp2k1
 
A

Anthony Fremont

rylmp2k1 said:
I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?

You could sue, but that would probably be a waste of time and money. You
can waste your money on patents and lawyers next time, but unless you think
your invention is worth millions I wouldn't bother. I think your best bet
is to keep inventing newer and better products from now on. You will win by
always being ahead of the competition.
 
P

Puckdropper

I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?
.
Thanks
rylmp2k1

Look into patents and copyright. If the fellow copies your design again,
you've probably got legal rights. Discuss this with a lawer, though,
legal advice on Usenet is worth what it cost to post your message.

Puckdropper
 
H

Homer J Simpson

I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?

See Don Lancaster's comments http://www.tinaja.com/

"For most individuals and small scale startups, patents are virtually
certain to result in a net loss of time, energy, money, and sanity. One
reason for this is the outrageously wrong urban lore involving patents and
patenting. A second involves the outright scams which inevitably surround
"inventions" and "inventing".

A third is that the economic breakeven needed to recover patent costs is
something between $12,000,000.00 and $40,000,000 in gross sales.

It is ludicrously absurd to try and patent a million dollar idea. This
library explores many tested and fully proven real-world alternates to
patents and patenting."

Read the rest : http://www.tinaja.com/patnt01.asp
 
J

Jon Slaughter

Homer J Simpson said:
See Don Lancaster's comments http://www.tinaja.com/

"For most individuals and small scale startups, patents are virtually
certain to result in a net loss of time, energy, money, and sanity. One
reason for this is the outrageously wrong urban lore involving patents and
patenting. A second involves the outright scams which inevitably surround
"inventions" and "inventing".

A third is that the economic breakeven needed to recover patent costs is
something between $12,000,000.00 and $40,000,000 in gross sales.

It is ludicrously absurd to try and patent a million dollar idea. This
library explores many tested and fully proven real-world alternates to
patents and patenting."

What the hell are you talking about. WTF said a patent costs that much?

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/patent_cost.html

The majority of the cost is due to lawyers. Patents need to have a very
precise terminology. If you got a million dollar gadget and want to patent
it then you will surely save money in the long run if you end up with a
monopoly on the market. It all depends.

Ofcourse I don't see what the original poster has a problem with? He likes
to sale crap instead of being innovative? He wants to market the only device
and doesn't care if its not the best that can be done? I always thought
patents were to expensive but if most inventors have views like his then
maybe they should be more expensive. Competition is a good thing... ofcouse
outright theft should be taken care too.

The problem is not the patents but the lawyers... and it gets worse every
season. You can no longer protect your ideas because the lawyers are going
to **** you in all the holes.
 
J

Jon Slaughter

rylmp2k1 said:
I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

And what the hell is wrong with that? You have nothing better to do with
your time and money? No offense but it sounds like your a lazy bum.

I can understand not wanting some theft to get away with it but you sound
almost as bad as wanting to create a new and better product. So you force
people who use your product to use something that is not as good as it could
be. Even if you had a monopoly on the market I think its your moral duty to
make sure the product is as good as it can be for the cost. Ofcourse chances
are that if you have a monopoly you'll inflate the price a few thousand
percent.

I think all and all the outcome was probably best for everyone except the
theif. In no way have I ever considered theft a good thing but you seemed to
have made me realize that it can be a good thing(in some sense).
 
M

Michael Black

rylmp2k1" ([email protected]) said:
I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?

What you have to be careful of is whether you have that much claim to
the device.

It's actually pretty hard to "invent something new". If it really is
so radical, then one would have taken steps beforehand to protect it.
But chances are this is derived in some way from someone else's work,
and thus you'd have little claim to protect this anyway. INdeed,
you might be open to someone else's claim that you have used their
work.

Not knowing that something has a patent on it doesn't forgive you.
ANd over the years, I've seen lots of posts from people wanting to
manufacture something they've taken out of a book or magazine, and
have never given thought to whether or not they have the right to
manufacture such a thing.

There isn't a lot you can do to protect the circuitry. The error
over the years that many small companies have made is that if they
do things to make the circuit hard to trace, it really just cuts
down on the individual who might make their own copy. If someone
can see a profit in the device, then they will spend the effort
to trace out the circuit, and get around any stuff you've done in
an attempt to make it untraceable. They have far more incentive
than the individual wanting to make their own copy, because a business
has the funds and the potential profit to offset the trouble and
cost of tracing the circuitry.

Small companies have done lots to ensure they keep customers, which
have nothing to do with hiding details. Become a company that people
want to do business with, that they'll tell your friends to buy from.
COme up with an official looking gold ribbon to "authenticate" your
product, if it really is so unique; in the sixties some kind of
copyright error resulted in "Lord of the Rings" being public domain
(or something like that) and Tolkien made much fuss over the fact
that one was the "authorized" publisher, that he would get paid
by. Create something of value that goes with the product, that
can't readily be duplicated.

MIchael
 
E

Eeyore

rylmp2k1 said:
I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?

Where do you live. The laws differ.

Graham
 
D

David L. Jones

You could sue, but that would probably be a waste of time and money. You
can waste your money on patents and lawyers next time, but unless you think
your invention is worth millions I wouldn't bother.

Indeed.
A patent does not stop someone ripping off your design, it simply
gives you the right to sue them if they do, and patent law suits
*start* at 7 figures.

Dave.
 
D

David L. Jones

What the hell are you talking about. WTF said a patent costs that much?

http://www.ipwatchdog.com/patent_cost.html

The majority of the cost is due to lawyers. Patents need to have a very
precise terminology. If you got a million dollar gadget and want to patent
it then you will surely save money in the long run if you end up with a
monopoly on the market. It all depends.

The patent itself is not (that) expensive, but protecting it *is*.

Dave.
 
D

David L. Jones

I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?
.
Thanks
rylmp2k1

There are many ways to protect your design from being reverse
engineered, but it depends on how complex the concept is. If it's a
simple concept then it's easy to "reverse engineer" just from your
specs and idea. If it's complex and they have to resort to copying and/
or analysing your code or circuits etc then that is easier to protect.
You can do stuff like using protected micro's for functions that
wouldn't normally need one, rub numbers off chips, encase the product
in potting compound etc

Unless you want to threaten this guy with an expensive law suit
(almost certainly a stupid idea), the only thing you do is either
bring out a better product that is better protected, or simply try to
beat him on price for the current product some how.

Dave.
 
B

BobG

=====================================
Show us the link to the gadget so we can tell if we want to buy it. I
bet we could tell you if it was unique and unobvious to practitioners
in the field (us!).
 
J

Jon Slaughter

David L. Jones said:
Indeed.
A patent does not stop someone ripping off your design, it simply
gives you the right to sue them if they do, and patent law suits
*start* at 7 figures.

How hard is it to prove one of these cases though? Obviously if someone
ripped off your idea and is making money on it... say something like a
circuit then it shouldn't be hard to prove at all? (unless they went well
out of there way to make it look different)

It would seem like in the case of the OP(small time stuff) that it wouldn't
be difficult to prove and the case would be much easier? The expense seems
to be due almost to the lawyers fat heads than anything else. As far as I'm
concerned lawyers are not worth their weight in cow dung.
 
D

David L. Jones

How hard is it to prove one of these cases though? Obviously if someone
ripped off your idea and is making money on it... say something like a
circuit then it shouldn't be hard to prove at all? (unless they went well
out of there way to make it look different)

It would seem like in the case of the OP(small time stuff) that it wouldn't
be difficult to prove and the case would be much easier? The expense seems
to be due almost to the lawyers fat heads than anything else. As far as I'm
concerned lawyers are not worth their weight in cow dung.

I agree with those sentiments, but unfortunately that's just the way
it works. That's the way it is here in Australia, and I'm pretty sure
the same (or even worse?) in the US. That's what Don Lancaster is
trying to get at with his article.
If you want to take someone through the patent litigation process and
win then that's what it costs, there is no such thing as a "small
time" patent suit.

But of course you can have a go at threatening someone with legal
action, making them think you've got the money, and hope they back
down. Wave the patent in their face and see what happens ;-)

If the "thief" has simply copied the OP's design which he
automatically has copyright too, then that is much cheaper and easier
to prosecute than a patent.

Dave.
 
S

Stanislaw Flatto

rylmp2k1 said:
I devised a unique electronic product which I sell on eBay.

Sometime ago someone "reverse engineered" my circuit and produced his
own device copying my slogan name and specs.

He gets his stuff manufactured in bulk and can compete alongside me in
terms of price.

I am now forced to consider producing a better product, but don't want
to see history repeat itself again.

What can I do?
.
Thanks
rylmp2k1
There is no escape. As I had to "reverse engineer?!" designs and
cirquits over years, what we found is, many times it takes less effort
to start from zero and design for actual performance than to copy
existing design, not knowing what hickups you encounter.

And "history repeats itself" since "In the begining..."(Genesis).

HTH

Stanislaw
 
M

Michael Black

Stanislaw said:
There is no escape. As I had to "reverse engineer?!" designs and
cirquits over years, what we found is, many times it takes less effort
to start from zero and design for actual performance than to copy
existing design, not knowing what hickups you encounter.

And "history repeats itself" since "In the begining..."(Genesis).
There's truth to that, because there are lots of ways of accomplishing
something, but until someone sees a need to create/invent something,
nobody will see that need. Hence, once someone comes up with a "Pet Rock",
it's really easy to duplicate because it's obvious that such things
will sell like hotcakes.

Look at all the knock-off fashion places, that have reasonably priced
reasonable facsimiles of the dresses worn at the Oscar ceremonies,
two days later.

Michael
 
J

Jon Slaughter

Homer J Simpson said:
See this http://www.derbygripe.co.uk/muggers.htm

Note INTERMITTENT WINDSCREEN WIPER Inventor: Robert Kearns in particular.

All a patent does is let you go to court.


If thats the case then theres no justice at all. You have to pay around 20k+
just to go to court? I thought it was everyones right?

The reason its hard is not because the patent(although it is excessively
expensive) but because the lawyers want to sink there teeth into anything
they can. It will only get worse because, as everyone knows, lawyers just
get greeder and greeder. I know what your thinking but I guess theres no
limit to greed.
 
H

Homer J Simpson

If thats the case then theres no justice at all. You have to pay around
20k+ just to go to court? I thought it was everyones right?

The reason its hard is not because the patent(although it is excessively
expensive) but because the lawyers want to sink there teeth into anything
they can. It will only get worse because, as everyone knows, lawyers just
get greeder and greeder. I know what your thinking but I guess theres no
limit to greed.

Sure. Note what happened when Sony and Disney wanted protection. The
congress weasels couldn't change the law fast enough. I'm sure Sonny Bono
would still be getting "campaign contributions" if he hadn't eaten a tree
while checking out some chick's ass.
 
W

Wim Lewis

In that case, look into whether you have a copyright or trademark case.
If the guy copied the physical layout of your circuit or the exact
design of your case, you might have a copyright case. If he's selling
something in such a way that a buyer might think they're buying your widget
but are actually buying the other guy's widget, then you might have
a trademark case, or you might be able to register a trademark for
your next product. Maybe you could ask in a legal newsgroup like
misc.legal[.moderated], or find a book on the subject, like Nolo Press's
series of legal books for non-lawyers.
There's truth to that, because there are lots of ways of accomplishing
something, but until someone sees a need to create/invent something,
nobody will see that need. Hence, once someone comes up with a "Pet Rock",
it's really easy to duplicate because it's obvious that such things
will sell like hotcakes.

This is true. I think that, oftentimes, the risky and innovative step
is figuring out what unmet need exists (or in the case of pet rocks,
an unmet non-need?). But that's not a protectable discovery, unlike
the product you come up with to meet that need, which might be patentable
or whatever. But once the need is recognized, there might be a zillion
different obvious ways to meet it.
 
Top