Hierarchical PDF-printing with Mentor "IC Station Schematics"?

[Joerg]

Definately. Have you not noticed the degradation of office tools into
glitz and intractable power tools? See also Capture.

Yup :-(

That is why I abandoned Orcad a long time ago and also why I use a lot
of legacy software. Older versions are often much better than new ones.
If "new" office software cannot OCR stuff that my old Logitech Scanman
software could OCR with ease, that's pathetic.

Oh no, the new cars have all the power widgets, but they are no longer
reliable. And safety equipment like emergency brakes are now computer
mediated and not modulatible.

My rule: Look what kind of cars people buy in not so developed countries
with unpaved roads and not much service beyond the level of the local
blacksmith. Then buy one of those.

 

[[email protected]]

This make no sense. There are fairly standard tools every engineer uses,
word processor, spreadsheet, database, schematic capture, simulation,
layout, tools like mathcad / maxima / maple / matrixX, et cetera. Are you
telling me that your IT people cannot leave that on a machine all the
time? Software toolchains can be left on there as well. Are you saying
that you regularly go outside all these things on a weekly basis?

Good God, you can be a dumbass... I don't know if I'm going to need the
Xilinx toolchain next week or the Actel. No, they didn't even install the
Altera tools on my machine. Go figure.

An IT support type (in an engineering organization) that cannot install
CAD/CAE software is a problem; one that cannot install standard office
software is a failure. Can't say that i have met one, have you?
Yes.


Prejudice.

Even more proof that your brain is gone. You can't even read.

Didn't figure you would catch that one.

Catch? You make less and less sense every day.

 

[[email protected]]

Yup :-(

That is why I abandoned Orcad a long time ago and also why I use a lot
of legacy software. Older versions are often much better than new ones.
If "new" office software cannot OCR stuff that my old Logitech Scanman
software could OCR with ease, that's pathetic.

OTOH, synthesis and PAR has gotten far better (and cheaper over the last
decade. The problem with OrCAD is that schematic capture has fallen into the
dog meat category. No one (on either side of the check) is willing to spend
real money on it.

My rule: Look what kind of cars people buy in not so developed countries
with unpaved roads and not much service beyond the level of the local
blacksmith. Then buy one of those.

Good luck getting it imported into the US.

 

[Joerg]

OTOH, synthesis and PAR has gotten far better (and cheaper over the last
decade. The problem with OrCAD is that schematic capture has fallen into the
dog meat category. No one (on either side of the check) is willing to spend
real money on it.

The PSpice part crashed on me about as often, if not more. I think that
the guys with the pen in hand are certainly writing big enough checks.
This software costs as much as a good used car. I expect better for that
kind of money. So I am not going to write them any more checks.

Good luck getting it imported into the US.

I own one. Mitsubishi Montero Sport. It is built on the MightyMax
chassis and that has proven itself on the worst roads and under the
meanest overload conditions you could imagine. So when I needed a car
back then I checked which ones performed well on the Rallye Paris-Dakar,
then perused the popularity of the winners in developing countries, went
to the dealer, haggled for a couple of hours, done. He inquired several
times whether I was aware that this vehicle had no power windows, power
locks or power anything. "You sure you want it?" ... "Yeah".

Now don't expect a super smooth ride in one of those. Torsion bars up
front, leaf spring in back. Kind of like an army vehicle (and in some
not so peaceful areas they are used for that purpose).

 

[[email protected]]

The PSpice part crashed on me about as often, if not more. I think that
the guys with the pen in hand are certainly writing big enough checks.
This software costs as much as a good used car. I expect better for that
kind of money. So I am not going to write them any more checks.

With LTSpice, how many are writing that check? Crapture has been on life
support for going on two decades.

I own one. Mitsubishi Montero Sport. It is built on the MightyMax
chassis and that has proven itself on the worst roads and under the
meanest overload conditions you could imagine. So when I needed a car
back then I checked which ones performed well on the Rallye Paris-Dakar,
then perused the popularity of the winners in developing countries, went
to the dealer, haggled for a couple of hours, done. He inquired several
times whether I was aware that this vehicle had no power windows, power
locks or power anything. "You sure you want it?" ... "Yeah".

Now don't expect a super smooth ride in one of those. Torsion bars up
front, leaf spring in back. Kind of like an army vehicle (and in some
not so peaceful areas they are used for that purpose).

Oh, I thought you were talking about a *real* car. Try getting a '57 Chevy
from Cuba. ;-)

 

[Joerg]

With LTSpice, how many are writing that check? Crapture has been on life
support for going on two decades.

LTSpice is free and Cadsoft never needed life support for Eagle. It just
works, does not crash and does not cost an arm and a leg. So that's what
I am using.

Oh, I thought you were talking about a *real* car. Try getting a '57 Chevy
from Cuba. ;-)

Don't need Cuba to get one:

http://www.cars-on-line.com/53608.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chev...822QQitemZ260806555682QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

 

[[email protected]]

LTSpice is free and Cadsoft never needed life support for Eagle. It just
works, does not crash and does not cost an arm and a leg. So that's what
I am using.

Doesn't do hierarchy, either.

Don't need Cuba to get one:

http://www.cars-on-line.com/53608.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chev...822QQitemZ260806555682QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

I wasn't talking about 54 year old ones. ;-)

 

[Joerg]

[email protected] wrote: [snip]

OTOH, synthesis and PAR has gotten far better (and cheaper over the last
decade. The problem with OrCAD is that schematic capture has fallen into the
dog meat category. No one (on either side of the check) is willing to spend
real money on it.

The PSpice part crashed on me about as often, if not more. I think that
the guys with the pen in hand are certainly writing big enough checks.
This software costs as much as a good used car. I expect better for that
kind of money. So I am not going to write them any more checks.

[snip]

Here we go again. I've never had PSpice (simulator) "crash" on me.
Sometimes it will stop on an inability to find convergence... that
usually turns out to be me inadvertently creating a circuit with a
saddle point in the feedback ;-)

AFAIK you are using a legacy version, not 16.3 integrated Capture/PSpice
combo. Which is pretty much what you must use if you buy or rent from
Cadence today. Unless a newer one came out in the last month.

IME legacy software from many companies is generally better than the new
stuff.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote: [snip]
OTOH, synthesis and PAR has gotten far better (and cheaper over the last
decade. The problem with OrCAD is that schematic capture has fallen into the
dog meat category. No one (on either side of the check) is willing to spend
real money on it.

The PSpice part crashed on me about as often, if not more. I think that
the guys with the pen in hand are certainly writing big enough checks.
This software costs as much as a good used car. I expect better for that
kind of money. So I am not going to write them any more checks.

[snip]

Here we go again. I've never had PSpice (simulator) "crash" on me.
Sometimes it will stop on an inability to find convergence... that
usually turns out to be me inadvertently creating a circuit with a
saddle point in the feedback ;-)

AFAIK you are using a legacy version, not 16.3 integrated Capture/PSpice
combo. Which is pretty much what you must use if you buy or rent from
Cadence today. Unless a newer one came out in the last month.

Sure. 16.5 is out now. ;-)

 

[Joerg]

Doesn't do hierarchy, either.

I know, but word on the street is that version 6 will have it and is due
out as beta soon. Anyhow, my main concern with SW is crashes and Eagle
doesn't do those. To me quality matter most, not features. With pretty
much everything.

I wasn't talking about 54 year old ones. ;-)

Well, a "real" '57 Chevy will be 54 years old no matter how you look at
it. Of course you can also buy a souped up one, a hotrod.

 

[Joerg]

Jim Thompson wrote:

[...]

AFAIK you are using a legacy version, not 16.3 integrated Capture/PSpice
combo. Which is pretty much what you must use if you buy or rent from
Cadence today. Unless a newer one came out in the last month.

Sure. 16.5 is out now. ;-)

I don't want it

 

[Joerg]

[email protected] wrote:
[snip]
OTOH, synthesis and PAR has gotten far better (and cheaper over the last
decade. The problem with OrCAD is that schematic capture has fallen into the
dog meat category. No one (on either side of the check) is willing to spend
real money on it.

The PSpice part crashed on me about as often, if not more. I think that
the guys with the pen in hand are certainly writing big enough checks.
This software costs as much as a good used car. I expect better for that
kind of money. So I am not going to write them any more checks.


[snip]

Here we go again. I've never had PSpice (simulator) "crash" on me.
Sometimes it will stop on an inability to find convergence... that
usually turns out to be me inadvertently creating a circuit with a
saddle point in the feedback ;-)

AFAIK you are using a legacy version, not 16.3 integrated Capture/PSpice
combo.

I stopped "updating" at v15.7, since there was no changes, except for
$$$$ :-(

See? So how can you say my computer is jinxed when you haven't even run
the "new and improved" stuff?

The Crapture GUI is the problem. Last I knew, you could still insist
on getting PSpice Schematics.

I was told I had to get the suite with Capture if I wanted to run the
latest PSpice A/D, which was necessary for compatibility reasons with my
client. Also, schematic exchanges would have been a problem because 15.7
cannot read my client's schematics.

Crapture was last "good" when it ran under DOS. I even used it back
then

See? That's what I was saying all along

 

[[email protected]]

I know, but word on the street is that version 6 will have it and is due
out as beta soon. Anyhow, my main concern with SW is crashes and Eagle
doesn't do those. To me quality matter most, not features. With pretty
much everything.

You've been saying RSN for a many iterations of 'S'. I'd love to ditch
Crapture (not going to happen) but honestly, crashes are more annoying than
destructive. It almost always recovers my session when it does. Now that
OrCAD has fixed hierarchy, it's not *so* bad. 16.3 is even more stable
(dragging large objects doesn't routinely crash it) than 15.7, though that
really isn't saying much.

Well, a "real" '57 Chevy will be 54 years old no matter how you look at
it. Of course you can also buy a souped up one, a hotrod.

At least until a decade or so ago, they were still making them with the same
tools.

 

[[email protected]]

[snip]
LTSpice is free and Cadsoft never needed life support for Eagle. It just
works, does not crash and does not cost an arm and a leg. So that's what
I am using.

Doesn't do hierarchy, either.

I know, but word on the street is that version 6 will have it and is due
out as beta soon. Anyhow, my main concern with SW is crashes and Eagle
doesn't do those. To me quality matter most, not features. With pretty
much everything.

[snip]

Really! Hierarchical schematics is an absolute necessity to do IC
designs.

I have a hard time convincing people of that. They seen no use for hierarchy.
Some even do VHDL flat(ish)!

 

[[email protected]]

Jim Thompson wrote:

[...]

Here we go again. I've never had PSpice (simulator) "crash" on me.
Sometimes it will stop on an inability to find convergence... that
usually turns out to be me inadvertently creating a circuit with a
saddle point in the feedback ;-)

AFAIK you are using a legacy version, not 16.3 integrated Capture/PSpice
combo. Which is pretty much what you must use if you buy or rent from
Cadence today. Unless a newer one came out in the last month.

Sure. 16.5 is out now. ;-)

I don't want it

We got it while I was on vacation. I'm not in a hurry to have it installed.
Enough got broken with the 16.3 install.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
[snip]
OTOH, synthesis and PAR has gotten far better (and cheaper over the last
decade. The problem with OrCAD is that schematic capture has fallen into the
dog meat category. No one (on either side of the check) is willing to spend
real money on it.

The PSpice part crashed on me about as often, if not more. I think that
the guys with the pen in hand are certainly writing big enough checks.
This software costs as much as a good used car. I expect better for that
kind of money. So I am not going to write them any more checks.


[snip]

Here we go again. I've never had PSpice (simulator) "crash" on me.
Sometimes it will stop on an inability to find convergence... that
usually turns out to be me inadvertently creating a circuit with a
saddle point in the feedback ;-)

AFAIK you are using a legacy version, not 16.3 integrated Capture/PSpice
combo.

I stopped "updating" at v15.7, since there was no changes, except for
$$$$ :-(

Hierachy is broken in 15.7 (at least Crapture 15.7). I thought you said it
was a requirement for your work.

 

[Joerg]

[snip]
LTSpice is free and Cadsoft never needed life support for Eagle. It just
works, does not crash and does not cost an arm and a leg. So that's what
I am using.
Doesn't do hierarchy, either.

I know, but word on the street is that version 6 will have it and is due
out as beta soon. Anyhow, my main concern with SW is crashes and Eagle
doesn't do those. To me quality matter most, not features. With pretty
much everything.

[snip]

Really! Hierarchical schematics is an absolute necessity to do IC
designs.

I know. Even for board level stuff it is. Took a few years to convince
Cadsoft. The sad thing is all the money that they have left on the table
because large companies can't use a CAD sans hierarchy.

Now why on earth is Mentor IC Station Schematic unable to print out a
complete hierarchy? That's what the guys at the IC house told me.

 

[Joerg]

You've been saying RSN for a many iterations of 'S'. ...

No, I never said it'll be there before version 6. Many moons ago I was
hoping version 5 would have it but one question to them dashed that
hope. So I just sat out this release.

... I'd love to ditch
Crapture (not going to happen) but honestly, crashes are more annoying than
destructive. It almost always recovers my session when it does. Now that
OrCAD has fixed hierarchy, it's not *so* bad. 16.3 is even more stable
(dragging large objects doesn't routinely crash it) than 15.7, though that
really isn't saying much.

Nah, I wait for Eagle 6.0. If it introduces the hierarchy and they don't
screw up the quality (as in no crashes) it'll be as close to perfect as
CAD can get.

At least until a decade or so ago, they were still making them with the same
tools.

So would that make it a Castro-Chevy?

The experience friends had with "socialist editions" of Western cars was
rather checkered. In Europe this happened a lot. Polski-Fiat, Lada, and
so on. Those cars rusted fast and broke down a lot. Ok, they were cheap.

 

[Joerg]

[...]

See? That's what I was saying all along

And what have I been saying all along ?

But you keep chanting that PSpice is the problem, when it isn't.

Then how do you explain the PSpice COM wrapper error? LTSpice doesn't
have those kinds of errors.

 

[Joerg]

[email protected] wrote:

[snip]
LTSpice is free and Cadsoft never needed life support for Eagle. It just
works, does not crash and does not cost an arm and a leg. So that's what
I am using.
Doesn't do hierarchy, either.

I know, but word on the street is that version 6 will have it and is due
out as beta soon. Anyhow, my main concern with SW is crashes and Eagle
doesn't do those. To me quality matter most, not features. With pretty
much everything.


[snip]

Really! Hierarchical schematics is an absolute necessity to do IC
designs.

I know. Even for board level stuff it is. Took a few years to convince
Cadsoft. The sad thing is all the money that they have left on the table
because large companies can't use a CAD sans hierarchy.

Now why on earth is Mentor IC Station Schematic unable to print out a
complete hierarchy? That's what the guys at the IC house told me.

I don't think Crapture can print a hierarchical stack either. I know
PSpice Schematics can't directly.

When I designed large chunks for ultrasound machine (in the days before
DSPs took over much of that) I had to print out complete stacks a lot
and can't remember that it ever was a problem with Orcad SDT. So they
broke that as well? Oh man ...

Though you've tweaked my imagination. PSpice Schematics are purely
text format like those from LTspice. So it should be possible to
write a script or a batch file (remember those ? to print out the
hierarchical stack.

Actually, that's the beauty of Eagle. You can write yourself a user
language program that does just about anything. If PSpice has similar
scripting capabilities it should be possible.

Now making labels, designators and attributes searchable, that's another
matter. That would need a time machine that takes us back to the good
old days ;-)