Help, processor reset when power on large transformer.

[Rock]

Thanks for all the input, now that the design is done using the 'hey
it's resetting I'll just make that part of the operatiing senario" I
will try playing with some of these solutions.

The board is not yet designed and these problems showed up on a hand
wired prototype with digital section made of soldered wire wrap wires,
so there is no ground plane it's a kludge mess.

I think I'll start with trying some other regulators as one of you
suggested.
The relays are fired via mosfets, so I woudn't suspect any feedback
from the relay coils, but the though that the coils in the relays are
coupling to the transformer is an interesting observation, one that I
failed to even consider, doh! I added resistors and caps to these
control lines to keep the relay on during the reset time but it still
reset.

I've never had to put a controller so close to a large transformer
before so this is new territory for me.

Thanks again to all who tried to help!

Rocky

 

[Larry Brasfield]

Thanks for all the input, now that the design is done using the 'hey
it's resetting I'll just make that part of the operatiing senario" I
will try playing with some of these solutions.

The board is not yet designed and these problems showed up on a hand
wired prototype with digital section made of soldered wire wrap wires,
so there is no ground plane it's a kludge mess.

One easy remedy (or mitigation) for a too open ground
network is to add a number of seemingly redundant
ground connections so as to achieve a densely gridded
ground network. This will gain some of the same benefit
as ground plane as the grid tends to exclude perpendicular
AC magnetic fields, much as ground plane does. This has
a good chance of precluding other problems you may not
have seen yet.

[Other approaches cut.]

I've never had to put a controller so close to a large transformer
before so this is new territory for me.

You may learn the value of ground plane from this project.

Thanks again to all who tried to help!

Good luck.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

message
[Apparently quoting the OP]

This is almost certainly being caused by the relay and its solenoid field cutting the area formed by the 5V regulator to Vdd to
GND and back to the regulator. You can verify this by supplying power to the relay through two twisted wires as well as moving it
away from the PIC circuit altogether.

Most relays have a closed magnetic path going through
iron everywhere except for small construction gaps and
the gap which varies to operate the relay. Allowing much
flux into the surrounding air is bad for the efficiency, and
would be a sign of a poorly designed relay, if it happened.

Hahahahaaa- I like that "gap which varies to operate the relay"- damned
moron, the very principle of operation is to "vary" the gap to "operate"
the relay, idiot. How the hell do you pull in the armature otherwise,
mental midget...

I have used quite a few relays in close proximity to other
circuits without seeing the magnitude of effect you claim,
including circuits made with single-layer etch for cost
reasons. So I am quite skeptical that your "certainly"
is well founded in reality.

Who gives a damn about your skepticism...what you seem to be missing is
the timescale of the interference with 2us being a bit short for
anything induced by a line frequency action- not to mention
repeatability going against an unsynchronized activation- whereas the DC
coil circuit is self-synchronizing. As usual, you're not even in the
same ballpark...

 

[Fred Bloggs]

One easy remedy (or mitigation) for a too open ground
network is to add a number of seemingly redundant
ground connections so as to achieve a densely gridded
ground network. This will gain some of the same benefit
as ground plane as the grid tends to exclude perpendicular
AC magnetic fields, much as ground plane does. This has
a good chance of precluding other problems you may not
have seen yet.

Total garbage suggestion....

[Other approaches cut.]

I've never had to put a controller so close to a large transformer
before so this is new territory for me.

You may learn the value of ground plane from this project.

Thanks again to all who tried to help!

Good luck.

Duh- magnetic interference ferromagnetic shield= steel box- you
half-assed incompetent.

 

[Larry Brasfield]

Derf transform applied.

Total garbage suggestion....

Wrong again, Fred. Getting a minimal ground network
more like a plane can readily provide shorter paths for
currents to flow in that network, and also reduce their
impedance. And it is well understood by many people
that conductive loops, (easily found in a gridded ground
network), act to exclude AC magnetic fields to a degree
that depends on frequency, geometry, and conductivity.

That fact that you appear unfamiliar with these facts is
very telling with respect to your own competence.

Duh- magnetic interference ferromagnetic shield= steel box-

More Bloggs ignorance blurting out there.

If you were to look at the work of a recognized authority
in shielding technique, Henry W. Ott's "Noise Reduction
Techniques in Electronic Systems", you could find a plot
of reflection loss versus frequency in a copper shield. It
covers magnetic fields, electric fields, and in between.
(See page 152 in the 1st edition, in the chapter titled
"Shielding Effectiveness of Metallic Sheets". Only the
most electronically naive believe that a metal must be
ferromagnetic to influence AC magnetic fields.

[derf]

 

[Larry Brasfield]

Derf transform applied.

message
[Apparently quoting the OP]

I've got a simple pic based controller that turns on power via a relay
to a 1000W transformer used for high energy lighting. When I turn the
power on the processor ends up reseting. I've traced this back to about
a 2 micro second low going pulse break in the power to the processor.
Adding capacitance, and even putting in diode based filter has not
helped. I'm guessign the emf field from the transformer is causing
inductance via the wires on the prototype (this design has not gone to
board yet). The power glitch happens on the output of the LM2940 5 volt
reg I'm using, and it is supplied by a 24 volt DC off line power supply
that doesn't glitch. I've tried various caps on the regulator with no
help. I'm switching the power anywhere in the AC cycle, and it doesn't
always reset. Anyone have any ideas of things to try?

I rewrote the software so that a reset is part of the normal power on
and off sequences for this device, if it happens. While this works I
find it a real cop out.

This is almost certainly being caused by the relay and its solenoid field cutting the area formed by the 5V regulator to Vdd to
GND and back to the regulator. You can verify this by supplying power to the relay through two twisted wires as well as moving it
away from the PIC circuit altogether.

Most relays have a closed magnetic path going through
iron everywhere except for small construction gaps and
the gap which varies to operate the relay. Allowing much
flux into the surrounding air is bad for the efficiency, and
would be a sign of a poorly designed relay, if it happened.

[derf] I like that "gap which varies to operate the relay" [derf]
the very principle of operation is to "vary" the gap to "operate" the relay [derf]. How the hell do you pull in the armature
otherwise
[derf]

When considering the magnetic circuit, it is useful to
separate the incidental gaps due to construction from
the gap for which the magnetic circuit exists. You need
not get all excited thinking I meant to write a primer on
magnetically induced motion. I merely reminded readers
that only certain flux does any good in such a device.

I notice that you chose to not deal with my point, which is
that flux setup outside the relay is wasted and minimized in
well designed relays.

I have used quite a few relays in close proximity to other
circuits without seeing the magnitude of effect you claim,
including circuits made with single-layer etch for cost
reasons. So I am quite skeptical that your "certainly"
is well founded in reality.

[derf] what you seem to be missing is the timescale of the interference with 2us being a bit short for anything induced by a line
frequency action-

The reliable observation is the system malfunction. With
the breadboard construction reported by the OP, that
"about a 2 micro second low going pulse break in the
power to the processor" is legitimately suspect. I think
you need to learn to weight the evidence you consider.

not to mention repeatability going against an unsynchronized activation-

The OP stated "I'm switching the power anywhere in the AC
cycle, and it doesn't always reset." This repeatability issue
works directly against your "almost certainly" hypothesis.

whereas the DC coil circuit is self-synchronizing.

Does that mean it turns on when it turns on?
That fancy language of yours is confusing.

[derf]

Since you seem so fond of your "solenoid field cutting the
area" idea, I'm going to provide more detailed reasons
for an objective person to discount that hypothesis.

The OP mentions a problem encountered upon energizing
a relay and mentions only 24 VDC or 5 VDC as sources
that might be used for that purpose. Let us assume,
(or divine, as you wish), that the highest of these is
applied to the solenoid. (This assumption has little
bearing on the end result since ampere-turns are held
nearly constant for a given coil size.) The problem, as
deduced or divined by Fred, is that a voltage has been
induced by flux emanating from the solenoid sufficient
to interfere with a 5V regulator powering a uP.

Most people familiar with the elementary theory of
induction, back EMF, magnetics, and the like can see
that the flux linking that solenoid will then change
at a maximum rate of 24/N Webers/Second, where N is
the number of turns on that solenoid. Those people
can also see that the maximum voltage this changing
flux may induce in a single circuit loop outside of
the solenoid itself is k * 24/N Volts where k is the
fraction of flux that manages to escape the closed
magnetic circuit I mentioned ealier as being the most
probable form of that solenoid.

Consdering that the only flux that acts to operate a
solenoid is that which is in the volume that changes
as the intended motion occurs, it should be obvious
that suffering the IR losses necessary to establish
similar flux levels in many times that volume would
be very wasteful. A brief examination of how most
relays are constructed reveals that their designers
are not that incompetent. They arrange that most of
the flux path is either iron, (which conveys the flux
without much stored energy or required MMF), or air
which develops useful force due to that flux.

Having never yet seen enough flux linkage to worry
about, I have not measured the k value for any relays
yet, but values in excess of 0.1 would surprise me a
lot if exceeded by any but a small fraction of relay
designs out there. (I exclude reed relays from this;
they are inefficient and irrelevant to the OP's issue.)
This estimate is based on common constructions I have
seen and the idea that, when driven at their intended
levels, the iron in the path tends to not saturate during
energization. (The magnetic circuit is gap dominated.)

I have unwound a number of solenoids wound for 12 V
and 24 V service. They invariably have many dozens
if not a hundred or more turns. A 24V coil with as
few as 25 turns would be most unusual.

Based on these estimates and observations, I expect
the ordinary magnitude of Fred's "almost certainly"
induction to be less than 0.1 * 24V / 50 turns = 48 mV,
and most likely much less.

But of course, in Bloggs World, we must make a few
concessions to the vast variability of the "real"
world. So, let's allow that the relay designer was
able to get only half the flux where it could ever do
any good, (and a much smaller fraction of the field
energy there), and make it a truly high powered coil,
having, say, only 10 turns. Under those conditions,
we might see 0.5 * 24V / 10 = 1.2 V. By gosh! That
*must* be it!. The OP has spread out the feedback
for his three-terminal regulator over enough area to
capture a significant fraction of that wasted flux!
And it is seeing the 1.25 V (or so) that it wants
when there is not a proportionate output but merely
the illusion of it induced by that humongous and hot
coil designed by one of the multitude of idiot relay
designers sadly allowed to live in Bloggs World.

Another mystery resolved by astute divination.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

Derf transform applied.




Wrong again, Fred. Getting a minimal ground network
more like a plane can readily provide shorter paths for
currents to flow in that network, and also reduce their
impedance. And it is well understood by many people
that conductive loops, (easily found in a gridded ground
network), act to exclude AC magnetic fields to a degree
that depends on frequency, geometry, and conductivity.

That fact that you appear unfamiliar with these facts is
very telling with respect to your own competence.

Nah- your so-called gridded ground plane is only effective against
fields if it encloses them- a kluged wire wrap network that does not
enclose his circuit will be as worthless as you are. You should have
stuck to SEB with your bullsh_t and worthless advice- because it doesn't
fly here.

Duh- magnetic interference ferromagnetic shield= steel box-

More Bloggs ignorance blurting out there.

If you were to look at the work of a recognized authority
in shielding technique, Henry W. Ott's "Noise Reduction
Techniques in Electronic Systems", you could find a plot
of reflection loss versus frequency in a copper shield. It
covers magnetic fields, electric fields, and in between.
(See page 152 in the 1st edition, in the chapter titled
"Shielding Effectiveness of Metallic Sheets". Only the
most electronically naive believe that a metal must be
ferromagnetic to influence AC magnetic fields.

[derf]

That is only for *high* frequency- at line frequency, it is not a shield
you want to build, but a field shunt- and that means ferromagnetic. Take
another look at Ott and see if this is not the case. A second point of
confusion you have is that you're too damned dumb to know the difference
between a *radiated* field and an induction field. At line frequency,
the field is induction. Want to try reading me the book again, you
half-assed inferior p.o.s. and idiot?

 

[Fred Bloggs]

Derf transform applied.

message
[Apparently quoting the OP]


I've got a simple pic based controller that turns on power via a relay
to a 1000W transformer used for high energy lighting. When I turn the
power on the processor ends up reseting. I've traced this back to about
a 2 micro second low going pulse break in the power to the processor.
Adding capacitance, and even putting in diode based filter has not
helped. I'm guessign the emf field from the transformer is causing
inductance via the wires on the prototype (this design has not gone to
board yet). The power glitch happens on the output of the LM2940 5 volt
reg I'm using, and it is supplied by a 24 volt DC off line power supply
that doesn't glitch. I've tried various caps on the regulator with no
help. I'm switching the power anywhere in the AC cycle, and it doesn't
always reset. Anyone have any ideas of things to try?

I rewrote the software so that a reset is part of the normal power on
and off sequences for this device, if it happens. While this works I
find it a real cop out.

This is almost certainly being caused by the relay and its solenoid field cutting the area formed by the 5V regulator to Vdd to
GND and back to the regulator. You can verify this by supplying power to the relay through two twisted wires as well as moving it
away from the PIC circuit altogether.

Most relays have a closed magnetic path going through
iron everywhere except for small construction gaps and
the gap which varies to operate the relay. Allowing much
flux into the surrounding air is bad for the efficiency, and
would be a sign of a poorly designed relay, if it happened.

[derf] I like that "gap which varies to operate the relay" [derf]
the very principle of operation is to "vary" the gap to "operate" the relay [derf]. How the hell do you pull in the armature
otherwise
[derf]

When considering the magnetic circuit, it is useful to
separate the incidental gaps due to construction from
the gap for which the magnetic circuit exists. You need
not get all excited thinking I meant to write a primer on
magnetically induced motion. I merely reminded readers
that only certain flux does any good in such a device.

What a joke example of your extreme narcissism- like the world is
watching the great Larry-Fairy and taking notes on everything he says,
keeping score of his words of wisdom. No one is reading your worthless
bullsh_t- you have been exposed as a fraud who can't do anything except
babble- you're a dull and uninteresting person.

I notice that you chose to not deal with my point, which is
that flux setup outside the relay is wasted and minimized in
well designed relays.

It is there in considerable quantity if it's mounted right on the PC
board with the PIC.

I have used quite a few relays in close proximity to other
circuits without seeing the magnitude of effect you claim,
including circuits made with single-layer etch for cost
reasons. So I am quite skeptical that your "certainly"
is well founded in reality.

[derf] what you seem to be missing is the timescale of the interference with 2us being a bit short for anything induced by a line
frequency action-

The reliable observation is the system malfunction. With
the breadboard construction reported by the OP, that
"about a 2 micro second low going pulse break in the
power to the processor" is legitimately suspect. I think
you need to learn to weight the evidence you consider.

I am not going to argue over what the OP said- he doesn't have the
intelligence to think himself out of a wet paper bag. Like how damned
hard is it for the reptile to disconnect the drive to the transformer.
Plus these f___g OPs lie quite often. That is why I never argue about
what some idiot OP might have meant. So it looks like you loose the
chance to post 10,000 words of conjectural bullsh_t...too bad.

The OP stated "I'm switching the power anywhere in the AC
cycle, and it doesn't always reset." This repeatability issue
works directly against your "almost certainly" hypothesis.

Right- the non-repeatability does go against the relay- but like I said-
these OPs lie quite often- so I discounted it.

whereas the DC coil circuit is self-synchronizing.

Does that mean it turns on when it turns on?
That fancy language of yours is confusing.

[derf]

Since you seem so fond of your "solenoid field cutting the
area" idea, I'm going to provide more detailed reasons
for an objective person to discount that hypothesis.

The OP mentions a problem encountered upon energizing
a relay and mentions only 24 VDC or 5 VDC as sources
that might be used for that purpose. Let us assume,
(or divine, as you wish), that the highest of these is
applied to the solenoid.

There would be no other reason for having a 24VDC supply other than
using that to drive the relay, idiot.

(This assumption has little
bearing on the end result since ampere-turns are held
nearly constant for a given coil size.) The problem, as
deduced or divined by Fred, is that a voltage has been
induced by flux emanating from the solenoid sufficient
to interfere with a 5V regulator powering a uP.

Most people familiar with the elementary theory of
induction, back EMF, magnetics, and the like can see
that the flux linking that solenoid will then change
at a maximum rate of 24/N Webers/Second, where N is
the number of turns on that solenoid.

No- that is nonsense- only holds for a single layer coil with no leakage
flux.

[...snipped the usual over-simplified elementary textbook garbage barfed
by Brasfield...]

 

[Fred Bloggs]

Derf transform applied.

Derf transform applied.

message

Larry Brasfield wrote:





Thanks for all the input, now that the design is done using the 'hey
it's resetting I'll just make that part of the operatiing senario" I
will try playing with some of these solutions.

The board is not yet designed and these problems showed up on a hand
wired prototype with digital section made of soldered wire wrap wires,
so there is no ground plane it's a kludge mess.

One easy remedy (or mitigation) for a too open ground
network is to add a number of seemingly redundant
ground connections so as to achieve a densely gridded
ground network. This will gain some of the same benefit
as ground plane as the grid tends to exclude perpendicular
AC magnetic fields, much as ground plane does. This has
a good chance of precluding other problems you may not
have seen yet.

Total garbage suggestion....

Wrong again, Fred. Getting a minimal ground network
more like a plane can readily provide shorter paths for
currents to flow in that network, and also reduce their
impedance. And it is well understood by many people
that conductive loops, (easily found in a gridded ground
network), act to exclude AC magnetic fields to a degree
that depends on frequency, geometry, and conductivity.

That fact that you appear unfamiliar with these facts is
very telling with respect to your own competence.

Nah- your so-called gridded ground plane is only effective against fields if it encloses them- a kluged wire wrap network that
does not enclose his circuit will be [derf] worthless [derf].

You appear to fall in that naive group who believe that
only an enclosing shield can diminish the magnetic field
coupling a circuit. The fact is that a ground plane or
gridded ground network can substantially reduce the
amount of magnetic field that penetrates that plane and
any nearly coplanar circuits. For similar reasons, it also
reduces high frequency magnetic radiation as well as
coupling between nearby circuits. To see why this is
so requires only minimal consideration of the effects of
currents that circulate in the plane or grid in response
to AC flux linking those current paths.

None of that applies at line frequency, idiot...

[derf]

Duh- magnetic interference ferromagnetic shield= steel box-

More Bloggs ignorance blurting out there.

If you were to look at the work of a recognized authority
in shielding technique, Henry W. Ott's "Noise Reduction
Techniques in Electronic Systems", you could find a plot
of reflection loss versus frequency in a copper shield. It
covers magnetic fields, electric fields, and in between.
(See page 152 in the 1st edition, in the chapter titled
"Shielding Effectiveness of Metallic Sheets". Only the
most electronically naive believe that a metal must be
ferromagnetic to influence AC magnetic fields.

[derf]

That is only for *high* frequency- at line frequency, it is not a shield you want to build, but a field shunt- and that means
ferromagnetic.

Given the OP's "2 micro second" observation, I conclude
that phenomena at frequencies higher than 60 Hz are a
part of his problem. The onset of saturation, for example,
is moderately abrupt, creating pulses with content at many
times 60 Hz.

Only a saturable reactor could approach that time interval-which a
stepdown core is not- and even 20x60Hz is a measly 1200Hz. You just
don't get it, idiot, and as usual your advice is pure babble.

Those effects, together with underperforming
high frequency breadboard construction techniques, are the
likely culprits, in my opinion based on the sparse evidence
so far provided. That is why I suggest the OP firm up his
ground structure.

Yeah- I agree- mainly because it will keep him busy and not because it
will do a damned bit of good.

I can see, (with or without Ott's help), that you appear to
understand the basics of a shunting type magnetic shield.
Where you are mistaken is in thinking the OP's problem
can only be mitigated by using such a shield.

This why they make such enclosures...

What you call the "induction field" is more often known
as the near field. Nothing I have stated in this thread
is predicated on the fields involved being anything but
the near field. The frequencies (or timescales) so far
mentioned are too low (or long) to implicate any far
field effects absent evidence from the OP that his
construction is absurdly spread out.

Your "deduction" that I do not know the difference
between near and far field characteristics, when there
has been no reason to discuss far field effects at all,
is yet more evidence of your poor reasoning skills.

I believe the traditional term for the type of field interference here
is "quasi-static", which means time variation involved, but no
radiation. You are a true idiot to think there is a near/far field
partitioning here- you have already demonstrated you don't know squat
about transmission lines, and now we know you don't squat about field
theory.

Want to try reading me the book again [derf]?

I consult it often. It is in the stack I keep within
arm's reach while I work.

Well -why the hell don't you try actually understanding the material and
remembering it, instead of regurgitating graph numbers that are not
applicable.

 

[Rock]

Derf transform applied.

Derf transform applied.

message
Larry Brasfield wrote:



Thanks for all the input, now that the design is done using the 'hey
it's resetting I'll just make that part of the operatiing senario" I
will try playing with some of these solutions.

The board is not yet designed and these problems showed up on a hand
wired prototype with digital section made of soldered wire wrap wires,
so there is no ground plane it's a kludge mess.

One easy remedy (or mitigation) for a too open ground
network is to add a number of seemingly redundant
ground connections so as to achieve a densely gridded
ground network. This will gain some of the same benefit
as ground plane as the grid tends to exclude perpendicular
AC magnetic fields, much as ground plane does. This has
a good chance of precluding other problems you may not
have seen yet.

Total garbage suggestion....

Wrong again, Fred. Getting a minimal ground network
more like a plane can readily provide shorter paths for
currents to flow in that network, and also reduce their
impedance. And it is well understood by many people
that conductive loops, (easily found in a gridded ground
network), act to exclude AC magnetic fields to a degree
that depends on frequency, geometry, and conductivity.

That fact that you appear unfamiliar with these facts is
very telling with respect to your own competence.

Nah- your so-called gridded ground plane is only effective against fields if it encloses them- a kluged wire wrap network that
does not enclose his circuit will be [derf] worthless [derf].

You appear to fall in that naive group who believe that
only an enclosing shield can diminish the magnetic field
coupling a circuit. The fact is that a ground plane or
gridded ground network can substantially reduce the
amount of magnetic field that penetrates that plane and
any nearly coplanar circuits. For similar reasons, it also
reduces high frequency magnetic radiation as well as
coupling between nearby circuits. To see why this is
so requires only minimal consideration of the effects of
currents that circulate in the plane or grid in response
to AC flux linking those current paths.

[derf]

Duh- magnetic interference ferromagnetic shield= steel box-

More Bloggs ignorance blurting out there.

If you were to look at the work of a recognized authority
in shielding technique, Henry W. Ott's "Noise Reduction
Techniques in Electronic Systems", you could find a plot
of reflection loss versus frequency in a copper shield. It
covers magnetic fields, electric fields, and in between.
(See page 152 in the 1st edition, in the chapter titled
"Shielding Effectiveness of Metallic Sheets". Only the
most electronically naive believe that a metal must be
ferromagnetic to influence AC magnetic fields.

[derf]

That is only for *high* frequency- at line frequency, it is not a shield you want to build, but a field shunt- and that means
ferromagnetic.

Given the OP's "2 micro second" observation, I conclude
that phenomena at frequencies higher than 60 Hz are a
part of his problem. The onset of saturation, for example,
is moderately abrupt, creating pulses with content at many
times 60 Hz. Those effects, together with underperforming
high frequency breadboard construction techniques, are the
likely culprits, in my opinion based on the sparse evidence
so far provided. That is why I suggest the OP firm up his
ground structure.

Take another look at Ott and see if this is not the case.

I can see, (with or without Ott's help), that you appear to
understand the basics of a shunting type magnetic shield.
Where you are mistaken is in thinking the OP's problem
can only be mitigated by using such a shield.

A second point of confusion you have is that you're too damned dumb to know the difference between a *radiated* field and an
induction field. At line frequency, the field is induction.

What you call the "induction field" is more often known
as the near field. Nothing I have stated in this thread
is predicated on the fields involved being anything but
the near field. The frequencies (or timescales) so far
mentioned are too low (or long) to implicate any far
field effects absent evidence from the OP that his
construction is absurdly spread out.

Your "deduction" that I do not know the difference
between near and far field characteristics, when there
has been no reason to discuss far field effects at all,
is yet more evidence of your poor reasoning skills.

Want to try reading me the book again [derf]?

I consult it often. It is in the stack I keep within
arm's reach while I work.

I can't put a ground plane on the circuit board. For one it would raise
the costs, for 2, it would complicate the certification process with
UL. For my UL, non isolated power boards I put no extra copper on them
at all, just the traces, nice and wide and far apart so the UL Guy
goes, "Yeap no Prob.".

But I really don't understand the war that is going on over this
posting, I don't think either of you has said anything that seems out
of the question for a solution, but your going at it like it's some
kind of holy war.

Chill dudes, act like professionals, and I don't mean in the wrestling
trades.

Rocky

 

[John Fields]

But I really don't understand the war that is going on over this
posting, I don't think either of you has said anything that seems out
of the question for a solution, but your going at it like it's some
kind of holy war.

 

[Mark Jones]

Whether it is or not is none of your goddam business, so if you don't
wanna get burned just stay the **** out of it.

_You_ chill. Nobody asked for or needs your fucking opinions or any
of the off-topic goddam garbage you decided to dump here, so if you
don't have a little technical problem which needs to be solved why
don't you take a hike?

Yeah, sounds real "professional" doesn't it? I wonder if his circuits are built
the same way: "Scrape the fucking garbage oxide off this resistor to get it up
to 1.255k, who cares about goddamn parasitic inductance, I can do LaPlace
transforms in my head so _You_ must be a slack-jawed simpleton..."

Win is a professional. So is Joerg, Terry, Spehro, Guy, and a few others.


-- "God might not play dice with the universe, but he sure can bowl when it's
raining!" MCJ 20041222

 

[John Fields]

Yeah, sounds real "professional" doesn't it?

---
Galls you, doesn't it? You have a picture in your head of what you
think professionals should do and how they should behave, and then
when someone doesn't act according to your preconceived notions of
what you consider to be propitious, then there's no way they could be
professionals, huh?

Anyway, what's it to ya?

I was replying to Rock's series of off-topic bullshit posts so it
really has nothing to do with you, unless you find what I post
offensive, and then I assume you know how to use a kill filter.
---

I wonder if his circuits are built
the same way: "Scrape the fucking garbage oxide off this resistor to get it up
to 1.255k, who cares about goddamn parasitic inductance, I can do LaPlace
transforms in my head so _You_ must be a slack-jawed simpleton..."

---
If you've got anything to say about my technical abilities, then the
proper way to do that would be to find a technical error in something
I posted and comment on that. Otherwise, you're just venting and who
gives a shit? Not I.
---

 

[Rich The Newsgropup Wacko]

---
Galls you, doesn't it? You have a picture in your head of what you think
professionals should do and how they should behave, and then when someone
doesn't act according to your preconceived notions of what you consider to
be propitious, then there's no way they could be professionals, huh?

Yeah.

"Unconditional Love? Oh Kay, Love DIS!<snarf!>"

"I can be as poopy as I want to, and there's nothing you can do about it,
nanner nanner nanner!"

I wouldn't **** you with Pynerapr's dick.
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
Meet Elmer, young son of the Thorpes,
Afflicted with psychotic warps.
His idea of fun
Is to bugger a nun,
And then vomit all over the corpse.

 

[Mark Jones]

That is, they all fit into your mold? LOL...

No, that is, professionals don't act like rabid animals recently escaped from
the zoo.

(Add Kevin and Wouter to the list of professionals. I'm still missing a few
people.)

Don't get me wrong, you obviously are intelligent John. It's just that your
social skills are... not very professional. (If I impart the voice of reason,
who will?) Chosing to use "****" and "goddamn" about anyone is not professional,
at any time and for any reason. Call it a mold if you like, but I bet you don't
talk to your clients that way... if you have any clients. It's supposed to be
about decency and courtesy - something you must be above (or below.) So if you
don't have any courtesy and decency for me, then I don't have any for you, and
soon everyone's all saying "f-you" and engaging in primitive testosterone &
cortisol-overload. I for one, am not going to fit THAT mold.

Getting some physical excercise is great for the body, and mind, and soul.

Rich will say that The Mother agrees, so it must be true!

 

[John Woodgate]

physical excercise

Please don't use such disgusting expressions on this NG. (;-)

 

[Rich Grise]

.

social skills are... not very professional. (If I impart the voice of
reason, who will?) Chosing to use "****" and "goddamn" about anyone is not
professional, at any time and for any reason. Call it a mold if you like,

That's why I have aliases, for when I want to futz around vs. when I'm
presenting something that I believe might actually be on-topic. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

Getting some physical excercise is great for the body, and mind, and
soul.

Rich will say that The Mother agrees, so it must be true!

Actually, at the moment, in response to this particular post, she's
saying, "Well, yeah, but in moderation!" Pumping iron is kind of like
abuse, but - - -

Here's Mother:
"If it feels right, it's right."

I've come to the conclusion that I've been channeling The Mother since
I opened my root chakra. She doesn't speak English. Sometimes she speaks
Kundalini, sometimes she speaks Dance - she's very spontaneous, when you
let your own fragment of her heal.

Cheers!
Rich

for further information, please visit http://www.godchannel.com

 

[Rich The Newsgropup Wacko]

Please don't use such disgusting expressions on this NG. (;-)

Well, you've gone and got me chided again for making too much noise in
my cubicle! ;-)
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"Based on what you know about him in history books, what do you think
Abraham Lincoln would be doing if he were alive today?
(1) Writing his memoirs of the Civil War.
(2) Advising the President.
(3) Desperately clawing at the inside of his coffin."
-- David Letterman

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich The Philosophizer

I've come to the conclusion that I've been channeling The Mother since
I opened my root chakra.

What's that, and please don't refer me to the godchannel site, because
it makes my brain hurt. There are words there, lots of words, and I read
them, and I find no content in the words. Maybe I'm just beyond
redemption.

She doesn't speak English. Sometimes she speaks Kundalini,

Where is that language spoken on Earth?

sometimes she speaks Dance -

You mean 'dance' as in 'jig about'? How can you speak that?

she's very spontaneous, when you let your own fragment of her heal.

Maybe if there was any chance I could cut through the waffle and find
the Truths you declare to be there....