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Help: how to design air-core transformer?

J

Jim

I hope to design an air-core transformer which may operate at 100-500 MHz.
However I found the loss is too high.
Can anybody give me some advices to design air-core transformer?
Thanks a million!
 
J

James Meyer

I hope to design an air-core transformer which may operate at 100-500 MHz.
However I found the loss is too high.
Can anybody give me some advices to design air-core transformer?
Thanks a million!

It can't be done. Try another solution.

Jim
 
L

Leon Heller

James Meyer said:
It can't be done. Try another solution.

RF inductors are often wound without cores, especially at VHF and UHF.

Leon
 
L

legg

I hope to design an air-core transformer which may operate at 100-500 MHz.
However I found the loss is too high.
Can anybody give me some advices to design air-core transformer?
Thanks a million!

What is your loss like WITH a core? Maybe the core is not your
problem. What application/environment?

Google 'air-core transformer', 'air cored transformer', 'coreless
transformer', 'contact-free transmission', 'contactless transmission',
'transcutaneous energy' etc.

RL
 
W

Winfield Hill

Leon Heller wrote...
RF inductors are often wound without cores, especially at VHF
and UHF.

Right. But the output of a transformer (two coupled inductors)
ends up being controlled more by coupled capacitance than by
magnetic field at those frequencies. Hmm, perhaps if one were
to interpose a shield... with approriate slits... Hmm...
 
J

James Meyer

RF inductors are often wound without cores, especially at VHF and UHF.

Leon

Low loss wideband RF transformers are almost never wound without cores.

Jim
 
W

Winfield Hill

Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote...
Exactly. A common practice is to wind the windings by twisting them
together, bifilar or trifilar, etc. This increases the coupling. At
several hundreds of MHz, the turns may be just a few or one turn.
Here's a tutorial on how to wind one.
http://www.electronics-tutorials.com/amplifiers/broad-band-amplifiers.htm

But that's with cores. If there's no core, and the length is made
long enough for the desired response, you'll end up primarily with
a coupling capacitor. Or a transmission line.
 
M

Marc H.Popek

There is a very good Motorola applications note discussing wide band baluns,
transformers, etc. both ferrite wound and air wound..

The treatment of the structure as a transmission line is appropriate. Actual
coax and the bi-filar and tri-filar wires are used. So how wide a band
width are you going to use?

Marc

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slZlvmarcoQQsolocationselectorZ1QQsalocatedincountryZ1QQsolocationselectorZ1
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L

Leon Heller

James Meyer said:
Low loss wideband RF transformers are almost never wound without cores.

I was thinking of a narrow-band transformer within the range the specified
range.

Leon
 
J

Jim

legg said:
What is your loss like WITH a core? Maybe the core is not your
problem. What application/environment?

Google 'air-core transformer', 'air cored transformer', 'coreless
transformer', 'contact-free transmission', 'contactless transmission',
'transcutaneous energy' etc.

RL
I observed two unwanted phenomenon:

1. direct capacitive coupling between primary/secondary coils. It
interferes with the mutual inductance, and makes the transmissivity of
the transformer change significantly with frequency.

2. Insertion loss is higher than 10dB.

I googled air core transformer before i posted my question. It is
weird that the concept is mentioned in many places, but I can never
find a real one which works in VHF/UFH band except transmission-line
type.

My purpose is for impediance matching, from 50 ohm cable to a 0.5 ohm
load.

To my understanding, air-core transmission-line transformers have
fixed conversion ratio, e.g. 1:1, 4:1 or 1:4, is it right? What i need
is a ratio of 10:1.

I saw some companies provide RF transformer with ferrite coil inside.
The insertion loss is only 1-2dB, however, for UHF band, the maximum
ratio is 4:1 or 6:1 only.

Thank you all again! And hope to hear from you again.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Jim wrote...
My purpose is for impediance matching, from 50 ohm cable
to a 0.5 ohm load.

You could simply put a 50-ohm resistor in series with your
o.5-ohm load, to prevent reflections and insure a fixed
known current at all operating frequencies.

As far as wideband transformers are concerned, the common
4:1 transmission-line transformers (get Sevick's books) can
be made for 50 to 12.5 ohms and then 12.5 to 3.25 ohms. The
transmission line in each stage must have an impedance that's
the geometric mean between Zin and Zout, i.e. 25 ohms and
6.5 ohms. You'll have to make the transmission line yourself.
I handmade a 16:1 wideband transformer this way, and it was
a tricky task, taking several days. But it worked well.

In theory you can do the next step from 3.25 to 0.81 ohms,
but it's nearly impossible to make 1.6-ohm transmission line.

Perhaps the spot for a resistive match is here, at the 3.25
to 0.5-ohm level. At least you will have quadrupled the
delivered current into 0.5 ohms with your 16:1 transformer.

If you want to play a narrow-band matching game, no problem,
have at it.
 
L

legg

I observed two unwanted phenomenon:

1. direct capacitive coupling between primary/secondary coils. It
interferes with the mutual inductance, and makes the transmissivity of
the transformer change significantly with frequency.

2. Insertion loss is higher than 10dB.

I googled air core transformer before i posted my question. It is
weird that the concept is mentioned in many places, but I can never
find a real one which works in VHF/UFH band except transmission-line
type.

My purpose is for impediance matching, from 50 ohm cable to a 0.5 ohm
load.

To my understanding, air-core transmission-line transformers have
fixed conversion ratio, e.g. 1:1, 4:1 or 1:4, is it right? What i need
is a ratio of 10:1.

I saw some companies provide RF transformer with ferrite coil inside.
The insertion loss is only 1-2dB, however, for UHF band, the maximum
ratio is 4:1 or 6:1 only.

Thank you all again! And hope to hear from you again.

The old Motorola App Note AN1304 discusses the use of coaxial baluns
around 1GHz, to reduce Z mismatches of 100:1 to approximately 6:1.

http://www.freescale.com/files/rf_if/doc/app_note/AN1034.pdf

also

http://www.freescale.com/files/rf_if/doc/app_note/AN1670.pdf

http://www.freescale.com/files/rf_if/doc/app_note/AN1033.pdf

http://www.freescale.com/files/rf_if/doc/eng_bulletin/EB105.pdf

......don't forget to check references listed in tha articles.

Going to 50ohms in the first place, may be part of the problem, as
your active devices likely exhibit output impedances in the 10ohm
range or less, to begin with. Matching earlier may help.

If galvanic isolation is required, a simpler 1:1 or 2:1 conventional
balun transformer might be introduced additionally, in a convenient
position. because required turns are low, you might consider winding
shapes that are not normally seen in baluns - perhaps a single loop
inside an isolated screen (~output winding).

With the app data aimed at achieving 50 ohms, it may be difficult to
turn it around to make sense for low load values such as 0.5 ohms.

RL
 
B

budgie

I observed two unwanted phenomenon:

1. direct capacitive coupling between primary/secondary coils. It
interferes with the mutual inductance, and makes the transmissivity of
the transformer change significantly with frequency.

2. Insertion loss is higher than 10dB.

I googled air core transformer before i posted my question. It is
weird that the concept is mentioned in many places, but I can never
find a real one which works in VHF/UFH band except transmission-line
type.

My purpose is for impediance matching, from 50 ohm cable to a 0.5 ohm
load.

To my understanding, air-core transmission-line transformers have
fixed conversion ratio, e.g. 1:1, 4:1 or 1:4, is it right? What i need
is a ratio of 10:1.

I saw some companies provide RF transformer with ferrite coil inside.
The insertion loss is only 1-2dB, however, for UHF band, the maximum
ratio is 4:1 or 6:1 only.

It isn't clear (to me, anyway) why you are specifically seeking an air-cored
solution. What is the problem with a ferrite core? You can get a very good
match with a 3:1 turns ratio, or if you really want to get precise then increase
the turns so you get M:N ratio closer to SQRT(10).
 
J

John Popelish

budgie said:
On 23 Nov 2004 09:53:58 -0800, [email protected] (Jim) wrote: (snip)
It isn't clear (to me, anyway) why you are specifically seeking an air-cored
solution. What is the problem with a ferrite core? You can get a very good
match with a 3:1 turns ratio, or if you really want to get precise then increase
the turns so you get M:N ratio closer to SQRT(10).

I agree about the ferrite, but he needs a 100:1 impedance change so a
10:1 turns ratio.
 
J

Jim

If I simply need a narrow-band transformer, e.g. 300MHz with
bandwidth>1MHz, what is the best method? I don't need continuous
tuning, so I can make a set of such transformers to cover the range of
100-500MHz.
 
W

Watson A.Name - \Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\

[snip]

Looks to me like you need more lie a hundred to one.

You can do 9:1 or 16:1 with bifilar wound air core coils.
 
P

Pig Bladder

....
It isn't clear (to me, anyway) why you are specifically seeking an air-cored
solution. ...

Because that's what the assignment was.
 
R

Rhett Oracle

If I simply need a narrow-band transformer, e.g. 300MHz with
bandwidth>1MHz, what is the best method? I don't need continuous
tuning, so I can make a set of such transformers to cover the range of
100-500MHz.

The "best method," of course, is the one that yields the most nearly ideal
result.

R.
 
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