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Help calculating a different electromagnetic coil please...

W

WildIrish

I'm reverse-engineering an electromagnetic coil that's very very small,
made
from very small wire. I'm not an electrical engineer so this is tough,
but I have
some background enough to be dangerous. Some help would be greatly
appreciated.

I know the following: Current flow through the coil, number of wraps,
size of wire,
area of the bobbin it's wound on, length of finished coil.

WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap count
to
replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original coil....
hopefully with less
wraps and hopefully thicker wire to allow me to handle it by hand, the
original
was probably machine wound.

Is there any way to estimate this and avoid all the math, or do I need
to
go the calculation route? If I must calculate it, do I calculate to
Gauss for
the orignal one and then solve for number of wraps given specific wire
sizes?
Any suggestion on the formulas to keep it as simple as possible would
be greatly appreciated, I hate to chase my tail when I don't have much
experience in this area.

Thanks again for everyone's help ahead of time!

-B
 
J

John_H

WildIrish said:
I'm reverse-engineering an electromagnetic coil that's very very small,
made
from very small wire. I'm not an electrical engineer so this is tough,
but I have
some background enough to be dangerous. Some help would be greatly
appreciated.

I know the following: Current flow through the coil, number of wraps,
size of wire,
area of the bobbin it's wound on, length of finished coil.

WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap count
to
replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original coil....
hopefully with less
wraps and hopefully thicker wire to allow me to handle it by hand, the
original
was probably machine wound.

Is there any way to estimate this and avoid all the math, or do I need
to
go the calculation route? If I must calculate it, do I calculate to
Gauss for
the orignal one and then solve for number of wraps given specific wire
sizes?
Any suggestion on the formulas to keep it as simple as possible would
be greatly appreciated, I hate to chase my tail when I don't have much
experience in this area.

Thanks again for everyone's help ahead of time!

-B

Do you plan on driving it with the same driver or can you increase your
current significantly?
 
R

Rich Grise

I'm reverse-engineering an electromagnetic coil that's very very small,
made
from very small wire. I'm not an electrical engineer so this is tough,
but I have
some background enough to be dangerous. Some help would be greatly
appreciated.

I know the following: Current flow through the coil, number of wraps, size
of wire,
area of the bobbin it's wound on, length of finished coil.

WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap count to
replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original coil....
hopefully with less
wraps and hopefully thicker wire to allow me to handle it by hand, the
original
was probably machine wound.

Is there any way to estimate this and avoid all the math, or do I need to
go the calculation route? If I must calculate it, do I calculate to Gauss
for
the orignal one and then solve for number of wraps given specific wire
sizes?
Any suggestion on the formulas to keep it as simple as possible would be
greatly appreciated, I hate to chase my tail when I don't have much
experience in this area.

Thanks again for everyone's help ahead of time!

-B

You could simply measure it. I'm not quite sure how you'd measure
"magnetic force", but once you get that figured out, get ahold of a
current-controlled, variable-voltage bench power supply, and apply
a range of currents to the existing coil, and see what "magnetic
force" you get - it's usually measured in ampere-turns. Then, hand-
wind a coil with your desired wire, and crank up the current until
you get the same magnetic force, which should be at the same ampere-
turns value, if everything else is the same.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
J

John Fields

I'm reverse-engineering an electromagnetic coil that's very very small,
made
from very small wire. I'm not an electrical engineer so this is tough,
but I have
some background enough to be dangerous. Some help would be greatly
appreciated.

I know the following: Current flow through the coil, number of wraps,
size of wire,
area of the bobbin it's wound on, length of finished coil.

WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap count
to
replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original coil....
hopefully with less
wraps and hopefully thicker wire to allow me to handle it by hand, the
original
was probably machine wound.

Is there any way to estimate this and avoid all the math, or do I need
to
go the calculation route? If I must calculate it, do I calculate to
Gauss for
the orignal one and then solve for number of wraps given specific wire
sizes?
Any suggestion on the formulas to keep it as simple as possible would
be greatly appreciated, I hate to chase my tail when I don't have much
experience in this area.

---
Knowing what you know about the coil, it should be fairly
straightforward to do what you want to do.

The most important thing you need to know about the coil is the
magnitude of current in the wire and the number of turns in the
coil.

Multiply those two numbers together and you wind ;) up with
Ampere-Turns, the same number of which you must wind up with in your
new coil for it to have the same effect on whatever is in its bore
as the old coil did.

For example, let's say that your coil has 10000 turns of #44 AWG
wire wound on the bobbin and that when it's operating it's got 1mA
of current in the wire. That means that the field in the bore will
exhibit a "Force" of:


F = nI = 10000T * 0.001A = 10 Ampere-Turns


Now, if you want to use larger wire and reduce the number of turns,
what you'll have to do is increase the current to make up for the
fewer number of turns. For example, let's say you wanted to go
from 10000 turns to 100 turns. Then you could rearrange:


F = nI

to solve for I:

F 10AT
I = --- = ------ = 0.1 ampere
n 100T

Not bad, if you've got a supply which can output 100mA at whatever
voltage is needed to push that current through the coil, so that's
the next step, finding out what the resistance of the 100 turn coil
will be. That's the fun part :)

Just for fun, let's say you have a bobbin which is one inch long, on
the inside, from flange to flange, and that the ID of the coil will
be 1/4". It shouldn't take a lot of wire to put 100 turns on that
bobbin, and it shouldn't take a large diameter wire to be able to
handle that 100mA without getting hot.

#24 AWG is pretty easy to work with, and it's got a resistance of
about 26 ohms per thousand feet, so that's not going to give us any
power dissipation problems, so let's see how much of that we'll need
for 100 turns.

From:

http://www.mwswire.com/awgsearch2.asp

we find that #24AWG with heavy formvar insulation has a maximum
diameter of 0.0227", so if we have 1" between the flanges we can
wind

1"
n = --------- = 44.05 ~ 44 turns
0.0227"

on the first layer.

And on the second layer, and that means that since we'll have 88
turns on those two layers we'll only need 12 on the third to get all
100 turns on there.

OK.

Now, since the bobbin has a diameter of 0.25" and the wire has a
diameter of ~0.023", the length of each turn of wire on the first
layer will be:


C = piD = 3.14 * 0.273" = .857"

and, since we have 44 turns on the first layer, the length of the
wire on the first layer will be:


0.857" * 44T
L = -------------- = 37.7" ~ 38"
T


In the same manner for the second layer, the diameter will be
0.296", the length of each turn ~ 0.930, and the length of the
winding ~ 40.92".

For the third layer, the diameter will be 0.319", the length of a
turn 1.00", and the length of the winding 3.0", for a total wire
length of just about 82".

That's pretty close to seven feet, and with a resistance of 26 ohms
per thousand feet (26 milliohms per foot), the resistance of the
coil comes out to be 182 milliohms, which means that to push 100mA
through it you'll need a voltage of:


E = IR = 0.1A * 0.182R = 0.0182V = 18.2mV

In order to do that properly you'd have to drive the coil with a
constant-current supply set for 100mA, ur use a constant-voltage
supply and a resistor in series with the coil.

With only an 18mV drop across the coil, you can ignore that and
figure the resistance required to pass 100mA at whatever supply
voltage you have available.

For example, if you had a 12V supply that you wanted to use, figure:

E 12V
R = --- = ------ = 120 ohms
I 0.1A

The resistor would have to dissipate:


P = IE = 0.1A * 12V = 1.2W

so a 120 ohm 2 watt resistor would do it.


Finally, the coil would dissipate:


P = IE = 0.1A * 0.018V = 0.0018W ~ 2 milliwatts


so its temperature will be virtually the same when it's operating
and when it isn't.


That's about as simple as it gets... ;)
 
J

John Fields

Now, since the bobbin has a diameter of 0.25" and the wire has a
diameter of ~0.023", the length of each turn of wire on the first
layer will be:


C = piD = 3.14 * 0.273" = .857"

and, since we have 44 turns on the first layer, the length of the
wire on the first layer will be:


0.857" * 44T
L = -------------- = 37.7" ~ 38"
T


In the same manner for the second layer, the diameter will be
0.296", the length of each turn ~ 0.930, and the length of the
winding ~ 40.92".

For the third layer, the diameter will be 0.319", the length of a
turn 1.00", and the length of the winding 3.0", for a total wire
length of just about 82".

---
Aarghhh!!!

12 turns, not three, for a length of 12" instead of 3", and a total
length of 91"
---
 
A

Abstract Dissonance

WildIrish said:
I'm reverse-engineering an electromagnetic coil that's very very small,
made
from very small wire. I'm not an electrical engineer so this is tough,
but I have
some background enough to be dangerous. Some help would be greatly
appreciated.

I know the following: Current flow through the coil, number of wraps,
size of wire,
area of the bobbin it's wound on, length of finished coil.

WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap count
to
replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original coil....
hopefully with less
wraps and hopefully thicker wire to allow me to handle it by hand, the
original
was probably machine wound.

Is there any way to estimate this and avoid all the math, or do I need
to
go the calculation route? If I must calculate it, do I calculate to
Gauss for
the orignal one and then solve for number of wraps given specific wire
sizes?
Any suggestion on the formulas to keep it as simple as possible would
be greatly appreciated, I hate to chase my tail when I don't have much
experience in this area.

Thanks again for everyone's help ahead of time!

-B

Obviously the thicker the wire just allows you to run more current which
allows you to decrease the number of turns.

Ampere's law states that the magnetic field along the axis of a solenoid is

B = mu_0*N/L*I


Therefor if we want another to create another coil with the same B there are
3 independent variables we can change to keep B constant. (as long as the
configuration is the same though).

So if we double the current we can cut the Turns per unit length by 1/2....
But on the other hand we have to make sure our wire can handle the new
current(which, since it size will increase it will decrease N/L).

So just by wrapping up a new coil with larger wire you should be able to
find the right current that will provide the same B as the old coil...
assuming your wire can handle the new current.

Theres probably a way to calibrate the coil to the old one using magnetic
induction or using a Gauss meter or something similar.

The main issue is that increase the wire size is not linear... i.e.,
doubling the current does not require you to "double" the wire size since
the resistance dependents on its cross sectional area...

R = p*L/(pi*r^2)


hence if we have 2 wires of the same length and same voltage accross them we
would have the current's flowing

I1 = V/R1 = V*pi*r1^2/p/L
I2 = V/R2 = V*pi*r2^2/p/L

and taking there ratio we have

I1 = (r1/r2)^2*I2

so by doubling the radius of the wire we get 4x the the current flow(simply
because the resistance drops by a factor of 4). Ofcourse doubling the area
gives 2* the current flow.


Also note that since I = V/R and B = p*N/L*I

B = p*N/L*V/R

so you can also change the voltage across to get the correct magnetic field
with the same current...

The conclusion is hopefully that as long as your new coil doesn't
drastically differ in configuration as the old one you can vary the current
and/or voltage to produce the same magnetic field. (though you might have
to add or remove resistance). Ofcourse you have to keep these parameters
within constraints(so you don't burn up the wire... if you get, say, a
current past the rating of the wire then you need to choose a larger
wire(which gives you less resistances but allows you to "fine tune the
voltage more)).

Hope that helps some,
Jon
 
R

Rich Grise

You must have missed this part:

"I know the following: Current flow through the coil, number of wraps"...

I guess my brain-pan skipped over that, because if he knows that already,
then what's the question about?

What's he really trying to do? Or what does he really want to know?

Thanks,
Rich
 
W

WildIrish

Thank you John and everyone that submitted information back. I'm still
working all your response information
through my head. In the application we are talking roughly 52awg wire
with about 6000 wraps.... current
CAN be changed in this application, doubled would be just fine or even
more possibly. There is no power supply
concern for the most part, batteries may eat faster but that's
acceptable in this application... we may be
able to fit bigger batteries in the battery compartment. All we have
to do is actuate a very small lever within
a very confined space. Bobbin is 3.8mm tall, about 3 mm wide when
empty.... so these are the contraints.
I don't have the current draw infront of me i'm away from the bench but
I'm going to work over some of these
numbers.

NEXT QUESTION: I'm not sure how the 'layers' are layed down, is it a
back and forth zig-zag? How are 5000
wraps done for example on a 3.8mm x 3mm bobbin? We haven't torn one
appart yet.... and when we do
some of our calculations, are there limitations to the number of
'layers' that should be used?

Thanks again for all your time and help it's soooo appreciated!

-B
 
J

John Fields

I guess my brain-pan skipped over that, because if he knows that already,
then what's the question about?

What's he really trying to do? Or what does he really want to know?

---
You must have missed this part:

"WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap
count to replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original
coil.... hopefully with less wraps and hopefully thicker wire to
allow me to handle it by hand, the original was probably machine
wound."
 
J

John Fields

Thank you John and everyone that submitted information back. I'm still
working all your response information
through my head. In the application we are talking roughly 52awg wire
with about 6000 wraps.... current
CAN be changed in this application, doubled would be just fine or even
more possibly. There is no power supply
concern for the most part, batteries may eat faster but that's
acceptable in this application... we may be
able to fit bigger batteries in the battery compartment. All we have
to do is actuate a very small lever within
a very confined space.

---
A reed switch?
---
Bobbin is 3.8mm tall, about 3 mm wide when
empty.... so these are the contraints.

---
You need to be a little more specific.

|<--OD-->|
========== -----
| | |
BD-->| |<-- L
| | |
========== -----

The importand dimensions are:

BD, the outer diameter of the bobbin's sleeve
OD, the diameter of the bobbin's flanges
L, the inner distance between the bobbin's flanges.

I don't have the current draw infront of me i'm away from the bench but
I'm going to work over some of these
numbers.

---
If you know the resistance of the bobbin and the supply voltage,
then the current draw will be:

E
I = ---
R

where I is the current in amperes
E is the supply voltage in volts, and
R is the resistance of the bobbin, in ohms
---
NEXT QUESTION: I'm not sure how the 'layers' are layed down, is it a
back and forth zig-zag?

---
Generally, the wires are laid down next to each other and when one
layer is finished the next is started and wound on top of the
previous one, but in the opposite direction. Just like fishing line
is wound on a reel by a level winder or cable is wound on a winch.
---
How are 5000
wraps done for example on a 3.8mm x 3mm bobbin?
 
J

John Fields

You're welcome. How about posting what's currently being used for a
power supply and what you find when you measure the resistance of
the bobbin, OK?
 
R

Rich Grise

---
You must have missed this part:

"WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap count to
replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original coil....
hopefully with less wraps and hopefully thicker wire to allow me to handle
it by hand, the original was probably machine wound."

Well, if he knows the number of turns, and the number of amps, that's
ampere-turns. All he would need to do is decide how fat of wire he wants
to use, pick a number of amps, and divide the ampere-turns from (1) above
by amps to get the number of turns.

Or am I missing something?

Thanks,
Rich
 
J

John Fields

Well, if he knows the number of turns, and the number of amps, that's
ampere-turns. All he would need to do is decide how fat of wire he wants
to use, pick a number of amps, and divide the ampere-turns from (1) above
by amps to get the number of turns.

Or am I missing something?
 
J

Joseph2k

WildIrish said:
I'm reverse-engineering an electromagnetic coil that's very very small,
made
from very small wire. I'm not an electrical engineer so this is tough,
but I have
some background enough to be dangerous. Some help would be greatly
appreciated.

I know the following: Current flow through the coil, number of wraps,
size of wire,
area of the bobbin it's wound on, length of finished coil.

WHAT I WANT TO DO: determine the correct wire size and coil wrap count
to
replicate the same amount of magnetic force as the original coil....
hopefully with less
wraps and hopefully thicker wire to allow me to handle it by hand, the
original
was probably machine wound.

Is there any way to estimate this and avoid all the math, or do I need
to
go the calculation route? If I must calculate it, do I calculate to
Gauss for
the orignal one and then solve for number of wraps given specific wire
sizes?
Any suggestion on the formulas to keep it as simple as possible would
be greatly appreciated, I hate to chase my tail when I don't have much
experience in this area.

Thanks again for everyone's help ahead of time!

-B
I got to thinking about this a bit too seriously. Just the same, for any
available winding cross section, you may change the number of turns by
changing the wire size, but you will have little effect on the total
magnetomotive force applied (B) (ampere turns is about the same for any
gauge wire).
Also, inductance varies with the square of the number of turns. This has
impacts on the nature of the windings.
 
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