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H-1B Visas; Why isn't This a Bigger Issue With Engineers

R

rickman

That's one of the things I've often advocated. Set the minimum salary
really high for H-1B. If companies are not willing to pay that then
obviously they do not need the engineers all that urgently.

But the companies are in charge of getting the H-1B visa program and
they pretty much self administer. So unless people talk to their
representatives, no changes are going to be made and the existing rules
won't be enforced.

What resources? Propaganda material? :)

Uh, resources to help police the rules. Right now the foxes are in
charge of the hen house.
 
J

Joerg

rickman said:
But the companies are in charge of getting the H-1B visa program and
they pretty much self administer. So unless people talk to their
representatives, no changes are going to be made and the existing rules
won't be enforced.

Sure but most engineers do not think it through. They simply demand that
the whole program be canned and that's stupid. Instead, they should
insist on fixing the program as is, for which there needs to be no law
change at all. I have outlined how to do that.
Uh, resources to help police the rules. Right now the foxes are in
charge of the hen house.

Unions know nothing about H-1B. Neither do most engineers, they should
first _read_ the law, then voice an opinion.

Shortages are real. Why would Intel and other companies set up design
centers in Israel where labor costs are sky high? Why did TI place the
design center for the MSP430 in Germany where costs are as high and
labor laws are way unfavorable to employers? Why does Atmel employ
engineers in super-expensive Scandinavia?
 
T

T. Keating

We have been in a down economy for how many years now? Unemployment has
been high for many technical fields for some time and the last few years
has seen unemployment rise dramatically for electrical engineers. So
why aren't EEs asking their elected representatives why they continue
the H-1B visa program?

I think it is pretty much common knowledge that the H-1B visa program is
being used and abused as a way to in-source workers and directly replace
existing US workers from their jobs. How many here have lost a job to
an H-1B visa holder or knows someone who has?

I know dozens of affected US tech workers.
How many here have voiced their opinion to their US representatives?

I called up both my senators.. When I called the democratic senator's office, I was able
to talk with a legislative aid for about 10 minutes.. Note: the freshmen republican
senator office didn't answer the phone.


First major point.

The H-1B visa props up the once abandoned, defective (company town)/defacto indentured
servant business models.

Before H-1B, when a company used up of the available local talent.

It either retrained or re task'd existing employees(not happening).
Increased wages & benefits to acquire employees from other local employers(not happening).
Contracted highly paid specialists(consultants) to perform short term tasks (not
happening).
Hired older(>40yr) technology workers(not happening).
Opened up branch offices, (distribute work load), in other parts of the USA(also not
happening).

These foreign work visa's(H-1B, L-1x, F-1 opt) interfere with/defeat all these traditional
shortage mechanisms which would normally deprive these sociopath employers of their
victims.

Yes, some business are destined to fail. Employers do not have the right to abuse
employees and continue too exist.

H-1B enables these sociopathic employers, to depress wages via dozens of loopholes.
Typically by hiring for a lower paid entry level position, while assigning more difficult
advanced tasks, using forced unpaid overtime, and generally abusing workers.


Second major point.

Simple economic theory, of supply verses demand, dictates that increasing the numbers of
workers(Supply) automatically lowers wages(cost per unit) for the whole market.

In the past the high wages of tech workers, (disposable time & income), was the seed
corn for the tech industry, enabling them to become the early adopters of new tech. That
dynamic is now long gone.

Lastly, a successful US tech worker has already acquired significant fixed assets,
which may require significant price reduction in order to sell quickly. Incurring a
significant financial loss like that, may require five, maybe ten, years to recover from,
thus making such a move a non-option.



Third major point,

The US Government receives approximately 85% of it's tax revenue based on individual
income and Social security taxes(workers wages).

Depressing industry wide wage scales has a rippling effect through out the industry, and
beyond. These same depressed wages/income also result in significantly lower federal tax
receipts.

Congress by undercutting wages and income on a wholesale basis, is on a path to
oblivion. Notice the skyrocketing federal debt, a big chunk(several trillion dollars) of
that is due to past and present worker visa abuses.

If they continue(or accelerate) this self destructive, anti-social corporate behavior,
either they shift the government's tax burden onto these corps, or become insolvent.
 
T

T. Keating

Sure but most engineers do not think it through. They simply demand that
the whole program be canned and that's stupid. Instead, they should
insist on fixing the program as is, for which there needs to be no law
change at all. I have outlined how to do that.


Unions know nothing about H-1B. Neither do most engineers, they should
first _read_ the law, then voice an opinion.

Shortages are real. Why would Intel and other companies set up design

No the shortages are contrived..(of their own making)..

Intel is a well known sociopathic employer..
Decimating(>5-15%) it's US work force each year. (Ranking system).
Read about it @ http://www.faceintel.com/ (pattern of abuses continues to this day).
centers in Israel where labor costs are sky high? Why did TI place the
design center for the MSP430 in Germany where costs are as high and
labor laws are way unfavorable to employers? Why does Atmel employ
engineers in super-expensive Scandinavia?

EU has content rules and taxes imports accordingly.
Israel gave Intel huge tax breaks..
 
J

Joerg

T. Keating said:
No the shortages are contrived..(of their own making)..

Ever tried to find a really good analog engineer? I have, and it was no
fun at all. In many cases another company snatched them away from my
clients very quickly.

Intel is a well known sociopathic employer..
Decimating(>5-15%) it's US work force each year. (Ranking system).
Read about it @ http://www.faceintel.com/ (pattern of abuses continues to this day).

We have their huge Folsom about 10 miles away and I know a lot of folks
who work there. They live here and they tell a very different story.

EU has content rules and taxes imports accordingly.


It's not about merchandise but about people.

Israel gave Intel huge tax breaks..


So why doesn't California? Such negotiations are a normal thing in business.
 
There are two possibilities. One is that engineers can work in the
USA. The other is that engineers can work in foreign countries. If
engineers work in the USA, then additional jobs are created in the
US. If engineers work in foreign counties, the additional jobs are
created over seas.

By all means let's get rid of H-1B visas and let some other countries
be the leaders in tech.


Dan
 
S

Sergey Kubushyn

Joerg said:
[dd]
No the shortages are contrived..(of their own making)..

Ever tried to find a really good analog engineer? I have, and it was no
fun at all. In many cases another company snatched them away from my
clients very quickly.

Ever tried to get a job when you're over 50? _TOO_ good to get a job,
"overqualified"...

There is _NO_ shortage. We have how many millions people out of job in our
country? Do you think they are all janitors or burger flippers?

When you guys say "good engineer" you omit 90% of other conditions like
"ready to work for food," "not having any belongings so ready to move
anywhere on the first call," "30-years old with 35 years of experience" etc.
etc. etc.

Sure there are some really unique guys worth bringing in but "shortage of
Java programmers" etc. is simply BS.
 
J

Joerg

Sergey said:
Joerg said:
[dd]
No the shortages are contrived..(of their own making)..
Ever tried to find a really good analog engineer? I have, and it was no
fun at all. In many cases another company snatched them away from my
clients very quickly.

Ever tried to get a job when you're over 50? _TOO_ good to get a job,
"overqualified"...

I _am_ over 50 and I've never had a problem with that.

There is _NO_ shortage. ...


For certain engineers there definitely is a shortage. I vividly remember
one of the academic H-1B foes, a professor who adamantly proclaimed he
can find numerous great candidates for any EE opening. So I personally
called him up on that, actually told him that if he gets us a good
discrete circuit designer we'd send his university a nice fat finder's
fee. Hic Rhodus, hic salta, as the old folks used to say. He couldn't do it!

... We have how many millions people out of job in our
country? Do you think they are all janitors or burger flippers?

Unfortunately too many are low-skilled which is a problem. Then lots of
smart web site designers, loan officers, realtors and so on. I know many
of them. Society simply does not need so many of them. One guy I
recently met actually did study engineering but threw in the towel, said
it was too difficult with the math and all that. Well, yeah, then one
will have a harder time finding jobs in life.

When you guys say "good engineer" you omit 90% of other conditions like
"ready to work for food," "not having any belongings so ready to move
anywhere on the first call," "30-years old with 35 years of experience" etc.
etc. etc.

I have never met any engineer worth his or her salt that carried a sign
"Work for food".

Sure there are some really unique guys worth bringing in but "shortage of
Java programmers" etc. is simply BS.

There is no shortage of Java programmers. But there is a shortage of
seasoned (yes, as in older) analog circuit design engineers and various
other disciplines.
 
T

T. Keating

Sergey said:
Joerg said:
T. Keating wrote:
[dd]

No the shortages are contrived..(of their own making)..

Ever tried to find a really good analog engineer? I have, and it was no
fun at all. In many cases another company snatched them away from my
clients very quickly.

Ever tried to get a job when you're over 50? _TOO_ good to get a job,
"overqualified"...

I _am_ over 50 and I've never had a problem with that.

There is _NO_ shortage. ...

snip...

There is no shortage of Java programmers. But there is a shortage of
seasoned (yes, as in older) analog circuit design engineers and various
other disciplines.

No the analog market dried up a long time ago.. Late 1980's or so..


What's left really isn't worth the effort.
Some microwave stuff(not a huge market), some medical devices.
Power engineering, better off with a digitally controlled front end..

DSP's &PGA's rule the day and night.


And from what I've seen, RCG's/imported workers might get some the analog stuff right, but
then completely screw up on the thermodynamics. Which results in a unreliable product in
the field.
 
J

Joerg

T. Keating said:
Sergey said:
T. Keating wrote:
[dd]

No the shortages are contrived..(of their own making)..

Ever tried to find a really good analog engineer? I have, and it was no
fun at all. In many cases another company snatched them away from my
clients very quickly.
Ever tried to get a job when you're over 50? _TOO_ good to get a job,
"overqualified"...
I _am_ over 50 and I've never had a problem with that.

There is _NO_ shortage. ...
snip...
There is no shortage of Java programmers. But there is a shortage of
seasoned (yes, as in older) analog circuit design engineers and various
other disciplines.

No the analog market dried up a long time ago.. Late 1980's or so..


What's left really isn't worth the effort.


What? I make a living in exactly that market since pretty much forever.

Some microwave stuff(not a huge market), some medical devices.
Power engineering, better off with a digitally controlled front end..

DSP's &PGA's rule the day and night.

They don't. For example, I design a lot of low noise switch mode
converters. A FPGA wouldn't even fit in some of them. Oh, and try to get
boundary conduction mode going in a MHz switcher using only a DSP or FPGA.

Besides, once clock frequencies head into the GHz range a lot of digital
stuff quickly requires analog talent again. A good dose of my
assignments isn't really analog but the underlying problems are.
And from what I've seen, RCG's/imported workers might get some the analog stuff right, but
then completely screw up on the thermodynamics. Which results in a unreliable product in
the field.


You have to get the right kind of engineer for the right kind of job. If
you hire an experienced business jet pilot and then task him to win the
Indianapolis race instead, don't complain. If you can't find good
allrounders look at engineers from countries like Russia. People who,
when they were kids, either had no radio and stereo amp unless they
built their own.
 
Ever tried to get a job when you're over 50? _TOO_ good to get a job,
"overqualified"...
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My experience is a bit different from yours. Several years after I
retired the company I had worked for asked me to come back to work on
a part time basis for a year. And I did help them out. And then they
asked me again a couple of years later. And once more I helped them
out.


Dan
 
J

Joerg

My experience is a bit different from yours. Several years after I
retired the company I had worked for asked me to come back to work on
a part time basis for a year. And I did help them out. And then they
asked me again a couple of years later. And once more I helped them
out.

If Tektronix had done that I am sure some screw-ups wouldn't have
happened. That's why I always said, companies like that should run
subsidized assisted living places. With a nicely equipped lab in the
basement where youngsters could have the occasional session with the
older crews, like when they become stuck on a problem or need ideas.
Something like "$2k/mo off the sticker price for you and your spouse,
and you agree to give us up to x hours of talk/idea time a week".

My wife is by now seriously doubting that I will ever fully retire. And
I have to say that she may be right. Seen it, I have worked side-by-side
with engineers who were in their 80's.
 
R

Robert Macy

...snip....
Unfortunately too many are low-skilled which is a problem. Then lots of
smart web site designers, loan officers, realtors and so on. I know many
of them. Society simply does not need so many of them. One guy I
recently met actually did study engineering but threw in the towel, said
it was too difficult with the math and all that. Well, yeah, then one
will have a harder time finding jobs in life.

It is very misleading for the govt to post "numbers of jobs" rather
than both "numbers of jobs" and no index to 'quality' the value of
those jobs, like "salary of each job" times "number of jobs" as some
total value. Now THAT would really show the value of job creation.

For example posting useful information, would show the fallacy of
hailing as a triumph the loss of 100,000 engineering jobs at $150k
each and 'replacement of those jobs with 200,000 service jobs at $15k
each. It would definitely show how much the US economy shrank.
Politicians would NOT be able to tout a true failure as some kind of
'success' It also seems, more and more each year the question begs,
"Why bother to go to school?"
 
R

Robert Macy

If Tektronix had done that I am sure some screw-ups wouldn't have
happened. That's why I always said, companies like that should run
subsidized assisted living places. With a nicely equipped lab in the
basement where youngsters could have the occasional session with the
older crews, like when they become stuck on a problem or need ideas.
Something like "$2k/mo off the sticker price for you and your spouse,
and you agree to give us up to x hours of talk/idea time a week".

My wife is by now seriously doubting that I will ever fully retire. And
I have to say that she may be right. Seen it, I have worked side-by-side
with engineers who were in their 80's.

I semi-retired in my late thrities. Traveled a lot. [Thank God! Too
old to put up with all the inconveniences and those travel
requirements now] Believe me you get bored!!! There is nothing more
enjoyable than accomplishing a good design to solve a really sticky
problem in some incredibly inexpensive manner. They'll pry the scope
probes and soldering iron from my cold dead fingers. Or, head will
crash into the PC screen while doing some 'paper' design.
 
J

Joerg

Robert said:
It is very misleading for the govt to post "numbers of jobs" rather
than both "numbers of jobs" and no index to 'quality' the value of
those jobs, like "salary of each job" times "number of jobs" as some
total value. Now THAT would really show the value of job creation.

They should post the numbers with income levels. But right now that
would reveal some rather inconvenient truths.

For example posting useful information, would show the fallacy of
hailing as a triumph the loss of 100,000 engineering jobs at $150k
each and 'replacement of those jobs with 200,000 service jobs at $15k
each. It would definitely show how much the US economy shrank.


Oh yeah. It always irks me when (especially here in California) it is
claimed "Oh, we created this many jobs". And then it's just government
jobs, many of which don't really create anything in terms of GDP. Or
service jobs that pay little and do not create exportable assets.

Politicians would NOT be able to tout a true failure as some kind of
'success' It also seems, more and more each year the question begs,
"Why bother to go to school?"

This is why I am so surprised that parents don't become more involved.
Find out what your kid could do. Find people (like you and me) the kid
could talk to if technically inclined, to figure out what has future.
One does not want to end up with $60k in college debt just to be able to
hang a degree on the wall.

There would be huge surprises for them. For example, in the 80's our
professors told us what was also said in this thread, that analog is
"dead". Oh how wrong they were. Well, nearly all my mates bought it and
went towards digital and software. I did not, because I knew the
professors were wrong.
 
J

Joerg

Robert said:
I semi-retired in my late thrities. ...


Nice. Made a business fortune? Rich uncle died?

... Traveled a lot. [Thank God! Too
old to put up with all the inconveniences and those travel
requirements now] Believe me you get bored!!! ...


Yup, I had to dop a lot of business travel, extreme. All my neighbors
envied me but traveling really gets old, fast.

... There is nothing more
enjoyable than accomplishing a good design to solve a really sticky
problem in some incredibly inexpensive manner. They'll pry the scope
probes and soldering iron from my cold dead fingers. Or, head will
crash into the PC screen while doing some 'paper' design.


Same here! If I ever have to go into assisted living the condition would
be that I can take my solder station and stuff.
 
J

josephkk

yep, "stealing" talent from other countries should be a good thing

making sure that it isn't just a way for companies to save on pay,
would be one of the good thing unions could do, but that is probably
a
swear word around here :p


-Lasse

Unions had a decent purpose once, about a century ago. Now they are the
disease. If you have ever worked around "unionized" "professionals" in
engineering you would spit on most of them. Sometimes right in their
face. I mean will not and cannot do long service run drop calculations,
and worse. I have vented here before over this.

?-)
 
J

Joerg

Frnak said:
Robert Macy wrote:
[...]
It is very misleading for the govt to post "numbers of jobs" rather
than both "numbers of jobs" and no index to 'quality' the value of
those jobs, like "salary of each job" times "number of jobs" as some
total value. Now THAT would really show the value of job creation.
They should post the numbers with income levels. But right now that
would reveal some rather inconvenient truths.
For example posting useful information, would show the fallacy of
hailing as a triumph the loss of 100,000 engineering jobs at $150k
each and 'replacement of those jobs with 200,000 service jobs at $15k
each. It would definitely show how much the US economy shrank.
Oh yeah. It always irks me when (especially here in California) it is
claimed "Oh, we created this many jobs". And then it's just government
jobs, many of which don't really create anything in terms of GDP. Or
service jobs that pay little and do not create exportable assets.
Politicians would NOT be able to tout a true failure as some kind of
'success' It also seems, more and more each year the question begs,
"Why bother to go to school?"

Joerg, Robert,

I get frustrated by the same set of hard-to-interpret numbers which
seem to get sanctified by the media, then become talking points as if
they actually represented, to some inappropriate degree ( I grudgingly
deleted "insane" here ), measures of a concept as vague as
"employment".

You both sound like you have given this some thought. What _should_
be the right "number" or numbers", or, rather, how should they be
calculated? ( Hm. That seems to tie back into an old joke about the
President of a firm who asked the VP if Finance what the numbers
showed; the reply was "Well, what do you _want_ them to show"? )

Some starting points ( yes, I made these up <grin!> ):

1) NGPrES ( Net Private Employment Salaries ): The sum of all annual
salaries and annualized wage estimates(?) for new hires, less the
salaries of those laid off or fired. ( But what about benefits? )

Good idea but it should not be restricted to new hires.

2) ANGPrES ( Averaged NGPrES ): NGPrES divided by net job slots.

Yep, essentially we need the payroll data. Which is being reported to
the IRS already so all one needs to do is require immigration to report
the fact that someone is on H-1B status to the IRS. If income less than
prevailing wage -> red flag goes up -> immigration authorities are
notified. Can all be fully automatic.

3) NGPuES/ ANGPuES: Same figures for public empolyment, reported
separately.

4) ANGCGES ( ANGPrES for College Graduates ): How well are College
Graduates doing one year after graduation?

IMHO that doesn't really matter. Nowadays one often needs engineers with
experience that unfortunately a large part of college graduates no
longer brings to the table. 20-30 years ago that was different, as in
better.

Are these the kind of numbers you were thinking about? If so, do you
know any ( relatively simple ) way of deriving them from publicly
available data?

If not, if I completely missed what you all were getting at, what did
you have in mind?

If the government computer systems are too clumsy to derive such data
(considering the mess in California, chance are that they are) there is
a much easier way: IEEE does a salary survey each year. Participation is
usally quite high and IEEE is the most respected trade organization of
American engineers, probably even worldwide. These numbers could be
taken pretty much verbatim and I am certain that would get us very close
to the true prevailing wage.

IMHO the wage for H-1B should be set significantly higher than
prevailing, for two reasons:

1. The prevailing wage calculation then does not have to be very
precise. If prevailing is set 25% above the calculated number and the
calculated number carries +/-10% uncertainty in it that would still work.

2. Abuse would immediately stop. If they can find an American engineer
for $70k/year and they'd have to pay a foreigner $90k, nobody in their
right mind would do that. If they absolutely can't find an American
engineer than paying $20k or more above prevailing should not present
the slightest problem. If it does then the need is not truly there.

In a nutshell, it can be done rather easily if there is a will. Problem
is, I think there is no desire to really fix this.
 
J

josephkk

I semi-retired in my late thrities. Traveled a lot. [Thank God! Too
old to put up with all the inconveniences and those travel
requirements now].

Fortunate dude. Of course fortune (luck) favors the better prepared.
Believe me you get bored!!!

That might not happen for me.
There is nothing more
enjoyable than accomplishing a good design to solve a really sticky
problem in some incredibly inexpensive manner. They'll pry the scope
probes and soldering iron from my cold dead fingers. Or, head will
crash into the PC screen while doing some 'paper' design.

You Betcha.

I need a few more DMMs, an Arb/function generator (i may just build that),
an SA, and some more stuff. Not sure what yet. Still jonesing for a 2465
class scope to add to the two DSO type scopes i have.

?-)
 
J

Joerg

Frnak said:
[...]


"Two thoughts diverged in a yellow wood,
... and I completely missed the boat."

-- attr Robert "The Snowman" Frosty

Sorry, Joerg. I've been irritated about the general employment
numbers for the whole country ( "H-0"? ) and was looking for a
replacement -- and hopefully more appropriate -- set of numbers. I
managed to miss your focus on the H-1B segment ( yes, in spite of the
Subject line <grin!> ). Oops. Mea culpa.

:)

Good idea but it should not be restricted to new hires.

Ah. So you want "present state" rather than "change". Okay.

Yup, because we (ideally) have to prevent the system from abuse and from
displacing equally qualified US workers. This is not difficult to do.

Are "prevailing wage" numbers available from some public source?

Yes, but as usual with many gvt sources the tools are a bit on the
clumsy side:

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/

A local example:

http://www.bls.gov/ncs/ocs/sp/ocbl0685.txs

BLS area codes are not the postal area codes. Beats me why. There is
also the IEEE salary survey. I get it for free because I participate in
the survey an am a member. Otherwise I think there is a small fee.

Again, when I wrote this I was looking for numbers representing "State
of The U.S. Economy, Subcategory Employment" rather than just the
H-1B segment. Not disagreeing, just explaining why these seemed like
they might be useful to me -- but not necessarily to you.

Wage numbers are pretty easy to get a hold of. Even if they were off a
bit for some reason that would be fixed by, for example, demanding that
H-1B engineers must be paid 25% above prevailing wage. If a company is
truly in dire need that's a small price to pay.

Hm. I'm not familiar enough with H-1B hires to comment, but I can
ask: Do companies employing H-1B applicants, do they pay transportation
and possibly housing allowances? That is, are H-1B hires at the same
salaries as U.S. citizens already more expensive in terms of
non-salary costs?

With honest companies like my previous employer: Yes, big time. Of
course we paid the full cost of the (international) move. If you have
ever moved to another state on your own dime, multiply that number by
about five. Then we also paid the first few months for a fully furnished
apartment, rental car, various costs for getting driver's licenses,
filled the fridge with goodies and whatnot. This can get very expensive.
One engineer from the UK arrived with his wife and four kids. That means
six airline tickets, big apartment and so on.

"That depends on what the meaning of 'is' is." (Unknown?)

I think that a desire to "fix the problem" exists, but there is some
disagreement on what "the problem" might be.

I do not think there is an honest desire to fix anything, or even a
willingness to discuss. Even IEEE didn't respond to my suggestions.

Imposing an "imported labor tariff" would tend to reduce the problem
of salaries of American citizens being depressed by external
competition. On the other hand -- from the employer's viewpoint -- it
would make it harder to reduce labor costs, thus keeping the company's
expenses -- and the costs of whatever goods and services it provides
-- higher, and thus less competitive.

H-1B should not be used to reduce labor costs. It is meant to allow
companies to find and hire talent they cannot find enough of here in the
US. It is a very good program but it is being abused.

Which, I'm sure, would call for the creation of a Bureau of Labor Cost
Adjustment whose purpose would turn out to be that of ensuring that
all United States jobs received a "fair" wage ( but you'd have to vote
for the bill to find out what "fair" meant ).

Wage control? No way, that's IMHO un-American. After all, this is a
free-market country. Wages should derived at via supply and demand. If
there is an under-supply in a certain group salaries will rise. The
prevailing wage number should then reflect that.


:)

It would be so easy to fix H-1B. However, the silly lamentations of
"H-1B abolishionists" is not going to do a thing. They need to think
rationally and bring forward "hard to resist" suggestions how to fix the
enforcement side of this otherwise good system. But they don't.
 
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