Generator Transfer Panel

[RPS]

I recently purchased an EmerGen generator transfer panel made by
Conneticut Electric. While the overhaul contruction is nice, nice set of

watt meters, etc. I am disapointed in the otherwise cheap installed
plastic pop-out breakers, and Line/Generator Toggle switches. The box
arrived with one of the breakers broken, so they have sent me a
replacment. Upon opening the box to install the new breakers, I was
disapointed in the otherwise cheap toggle switches which only carry a
rateing of 16amp at 1/4hp. Now whatever the hell that means is beyond
me.

Thats seems all well and good when powering from generator power, but
these toggle switches are also in the chain feeding back to the main
panel branch breakers when powering from the utility side.
Seems to me its a disaster just waiting to happen being the weakest link

in the electrical chain. In startup and surge wattage alone, they are
underated! When your on the utility power and the electrical chain is
running through the cheap plastic toggles, imagine powering up a few
heavy duty items, and that toggle is either going to smoke or short out
over time. Am I missing something here? This may be an approved transfer

switch, but is by no means electrically safe.

 

[John G]

Yes you are missing something.
You did not correctly specify what you wanted nor tell us what you got.
Just from your description it appears you got a lightweight board for a
lightweight job but think you can use it for a heavy weight job.
Of course it could just be cheap and not even up to the rated specs whatever
they might be.

 

[RPS]

It is an EmerGen 10-7500 watt panel. I don't think it's light, except in its
construction. This is a load transfering transfer panel meaning it simply
switches the load between to the two power sources (Gen or Line). My concerns
are indeed valid. In the Line mode it feeds back to the circuit breaker in the
main panel. In the Gen mode it feeds through it's own breaker ( in this case
20amp). My concern is the electrical rating of the each toggle switch in the
unit which is rated at 16amps at 1/4 horse. The toggles are the weakest link
when utilizing line power. Would't you agree on that? What is the sense of
having a 20 amp circuit making a connection through a switch that is rated 16
amps?

 

[RPS]

Because they don't sell them here, unless your speaking of a double-throw switch.
The cost and installation costs is prohibitive. Hindsite is always 20-20. Best
residential equipment I have seen for my particular application is a Sqaure-D Gen
Panel, which is a true sub-panel to the main loadcenter, but again costly. All the
NEC requires is a positive lock than prevents simultaneously connecting backup power
to utility power and is usually achieved by a latching device. The solution you
proposed is really overkill for me, since I am only powering 6 essential circuits
and the need to switch the entire distribution system is not needed. A lot of these
so called generator products on the market are pure hype, marketing, and simply
trying to instill fear. Now I can fully understand why so many people simply
backfeed your homes. Killing the MAIN absolutely disconnects the utility side power.
The real danger is inadvertently connecting both sources usually by human error.
After all thats all a generator sub panel really is. Two Breakers one of which is
feed from the main panel supplying the sub-panel, and the other breaker connected to
the backup power source with the difference being an interlock preventing both from
being on at the same time! Selected circuits are then relocated to the sub-panel. So
all the hype and bull shit that the springs or contacts in a breaker can stick and
create a hazard for the lineman, is nothing more than bullshit since that could
concievably happen anyway regardless of what your using unless you kill the MAIN
anyway.

 

[RPS]

I agree with you John which is why I posted in the group to begin. Doesn't make
any sense in any practicle electrical terms to me. Meters are 3250 watts on each
leg. Still seems electrically unsafe to me.

 

[albown]

I recently purchased an EmerGen generator transfer panel made by
Conneticut Electric. While the overhaul contruction is nice, nice set of

watt meters, etc. I am disapointed in the otherwise cheap installed
plastic pop-out breakers, and Line/Generator Toggle switches. The box
arrived with one of the breakers broken, so they have sent me a
replacment. Upon opening the box to install the new breakers, I was
disapointed in the otherwise cheap toggle switches which only carry a
rateing of 16amp at 1/4hp. Now whatever the hell that means is beyond
me.

Thats seems all well and good when powering from generator power, but
these toggle switches are also in the chain feeding back to the main
panel branch breakers when powering from the utility side.
Seems to me its a disaster just waiting to happen being the weakest link

in the electrical chain. In startup and surge wattage alone, they are
underated! When your on the utility power and the electrical chain is
running through the cheap plastic toggles, imagine powering up a few
heavy duty items, and that toggle is either going to smoke or short out
over time. Am I missing something here? This may be an approved transfer

switch, but is by no means electrically safe.

Is it possible that all the toggle switches carry is the load for the coils
for the unit? I strongly doubt that they carry the full rated current load.
I used to work for an OEM and our control circuits were generally #14 gauge
or smaller for a reason. They were controls, not for powering anything. As
for the construction, is there a UL-CSA label? If so then it has passed the
requirements for the job established by the testing agencies. If there is no
UL-CSA label then.......

Plastic pop out breakers..... What were you expecting? Bolt on's? For
residential work stab in, pull out breakers are fine. You already admitted
that a double pole double throw switch was expensive. (my personal choice
for this situation)

C.E. has been around for a long time. (I have been in the trade for 30 +
years) Their fusible pullout disconnects used to be the cheapest model on
the market, completely legal just the least expensive. I have used 1000's of
them.

As for the toggle switch rating, switches are rated for their ability to do
work. Controls do not need much of an amp draw. I am sure the switch was
chosen for the job and the price that they pay for it. Go to WW Grainger's
and look at all the toggles available. Litterly tons of them by every
manufacture in the world.

I suggest you complete your installation. Then test the installation, at
least 5 times with different situations and see what happens. If your still
concerned call the code official and or a licensened electrician for an
inspection.

Do not forget the grounding issue with the generator. You can not just drive
an ground rod at the location and call it good. I believe in (in your case)
3 pole disconnects. 2 hots and the neutral. Having a solidly made neutral
with 2 sources of power can be a problem. If your neutral is not isolated
from the power companies wiring (by a means of disconnect) when on the
generator, you can and will in certain instances induce current and voltages
back on the grid. Granted they are small, but if your line man is working on
your transformer and gets zinged. I guarantee that you will be in court with
the utility. I have been nailed by this in the past.

My view from the cheap seats.

 

[RPS]

Do not forget the grounding issue with the generator. You can not just drive
an ground rod at the location and call it good. I believe in (in your case)
3 pole disconnects. 2 hots and the neutral. Having a solidly made neutral
with 2 sources of power can be a problem. If your neutral is not isolated
from the power companies wiring (by a means of disconnect) when on the
generator, you can and will in certain instances induce current and voltages
back on the grid. Granted they are small, but if your line man is working on
your transformer and gets zinged. I guarantee that you will be in court with
the utility. I have been nailed by this in the past.

My view from the cheap seats.

Thanks for your comments however, the power companies neutrals are not isolated
in ANY of these residential generator transfer panel solutions, or add-in
generator sub panel solutions. In fact they are all bonded together at the main
panel. And I have looked at them all (GenTran, EmerGen, Square-D, Cutler Hammer)
Perhaps they are in utilizing what you are describing in the form of a master
disconnect, but thats not required. As far as grounding the portable
generator....the frame must be independently grounded. It's amazing you can talk
to four different electricians and all of them will give you a different take.
So which is the right way?

 

[RPS]

I agree with you 100% !!!

This is a type of human error that we cannot allow to happen.
It's an easy mistake to make and it could kill somoene. I am
not implying that you disagree with this; I am just noting it so
that anyone who reads this thread understands the reason for the
transfer panel.

--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager. Remember Doc Brown
from the 'Back to the Future' movies? Do you have an "impossible"
engineering project that only someone like Doc Brown can solve?
Check out my resume at http://www.guymacon.com/resume.html/

 

[RPS]

Ahhh...they must be legal and meet NEC code requirements or they wouldn't be allowed to
sell and distribute them in any particular state! I can't speak for local ordinances or
local building code. It would be informative for you experts to research and look at some
of this merchandise before offering...oh yes another non factual opinion beacuse I have
simply heard it all.

 

[C What I Mean]

Sorry but Killing the MAIN in a residential distribution panel is

anything but a sure way of disconnecting the utility side power. You
have to consider the failure modes in these device which are designed
primarily to provide circuit breaker protection and not to function as
a absolute line disconnect.

By contrast, a line/generator transfer switch is generally of the
open-blade, knife switch conststruction, and provides absolute
assurance that the line and the generator are never connected at the
same time.

I don't believe that is completely correct. Many transfer switches are made
up of breakers connected in one way or another. I have supplied many of
them in equipment packages in the past as per specs for public works jobs.
Also in industrial manufacturing plants it is done very often.

 

[RPS]

This sounds like the best solution. Could the Double Throw simply be wired back
to main load center eliminating any need for a sub-panel? In others words I just
want to disconnect the whole house.

 

[Mark or Sue]

This sounds like the best solution. Could the Double Throw simply be wired back
to main load center eliminating any need for a sub-panel? In others words I just
want to disconnect the whole house.

Yes it can, but it has to be rated the same as your electrical service which
is typically 100A or 200A. Harbor Freight Tools has a Cutler Hammer manual
transfer switch in 100A for $199 and 200A for $299. These are huge and in
raintight enclosures. They must be mounted adjacent to your main disconnect
because they have no fuses or breakers inside of them. Needless to say, you
will have to pull you meter to install this.

 

[albown]

See below

This sounds like the best solution. Could the Double Throw simply be wired back
to main load center eliminating any need for a sub-panel? In others words I just
want to disconnect the whole house.

Yes it can, HOWEVER, there are going to some issues. Trying not to omit the
important steps you could do this. CHECK with the utility for their
regulations. GET A PERMIT if required. Remove the meter and remove all the
load wiring from the meter base to the main circuit breaker. Land these in
the new 3 pole double throw service rated switch. Wire the load side to your
main circuit breaker and the other set of lugs to the generator your going
to use. Make sure that the grounding is done correctly at the generator. Now
you can have 2 sources of power and isolation between them. It is manual but
that should be ok and the way I would want it. The power company should be
happy cause they have visible blade disconnection. A requirement here for
islanding, ( that is what they call it here ) . This equipment is not small
nor is it pretty.

You should look into the requirements for paralleling, just for fun. Now
that gets crazy. I had a client that has a 900 kw gen set. The utility was
going to offer credits and incentives for the conversion. The customer
wanted to parallel and/or island as the condition warranted. The
conversion of his main service was 220K. The additional controls was another
75K. The kicker was the county licensed his generator for standby only not
prime power. Our local county has a regulation that when you hit 75 tons of
pollution in a year you were considered a utility company. Needing an EPA
impact study and all the controls and clean up stuff that is required. His
generator would have made 75 tons of pollution every 7 days according to the
manufacture.

Good luck, please let us know how this goes.