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Fifty-six Deceits in Fahrenheit 911

J

Jim Yanik

Since the US right started a war

Don't forget that most DEmocRATs voted FOR the war,Kerry among them.
And Kerry voted against the budget for the war afterwards.
that removed the control over them
without supplying the security needed to prevent the murders and the
US left opposed starting this war, I'd have to say that the political
left has done more to oppose the murders than the US right.

Actually,the US left has done more to cheer on the terrorists.
 
K

Ken Smith

John S. Dyson said:
There were indeed trucks of stuff that were transported to Syria. Reports
.............^^^^^^
Based on what you followed that with, the best you can say is
"maybe" here.
have come from the 'spy' organizations. Alas, they are not trustworthy,
especially since their HUMINT downsizing in the 1995-1996 timeframe, and
the even worse damage/precedent done by the Church commission.

I met some people from a 3 lettered agency of the US government. There
was inteligence in the title but none was detected in what they were
doing. This was before 1995.

Remember the CIA was still saying the Soviet economy was just perking
right along right up to the day the wheels fell off. This was well before
1995 and any downsizing. Based on the latest results, I'd be inclined to
down size them to zero and buy a good dart board. How an orginization can
have so many smart people involved and perform so stupidly is one of the
major questions of our time.
 
K

Ken Smith

Jim Yanik said:
Clinton distinctly said he and his admin believed Iraq *possessed* WMD
after they were supposed to have disposed of it.

Cite?

He may have actually had some at that time. We still don't know the full
story. He sure didn't point at pictures and say "here here and
here" though.
I believe the Intelligence agencies DID notice,and were not allowed to
pursue it.Israeli intelligence also believes Syria received Iraq's WMD
materials.

On what basis do you believe that? I haven't heard anything above the
level of pure speculation. The government of Syria wouldn't be being very
smart to let them in.
And Iraq is a big place,easy to bury and hide WMD.

Its not so easy to hide them. The work of digging is hard to hide. Even
if you bury them with no surface trace, they can still be detected. You
have to bury 100 Kg of iron about 30 meters deep to hide it.

There is likely to be an effort starting next year to clean up Iraq. In
the process of finding all the UXO, any WMDs that are there should be
turned up.
 
K

Ken Smith

news:[email protected]: [..]
Don't forget that most DEmocRATs voted FOR the war,Kerry among them.
And Kerry voted against the budget for the war afterwards.

Only the most cynical among us would have suspected Bush's word that he
knew where the WMDs were. Even I believed it. Their vote makes sense,
given that.

The republicans like to claim that Kerry voted against some needed
funds. The democrats claim that the bill he voted no on contained a bunch
of stuff unrelated to the war and should have been killed.

Personally I don't believe either of them.

Actually,the US left has done more to cheer on the terrorists.

No, actually it was the US right that unleashed the terrorists in
Iraq. They have provided material support to terrorists all over the
world. Off hand I can only think of one case of the US left supporting a
terrorist and even then, I don't think any money or arms was sent.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Ken Smith <[email protected]>
wrote (in said:
How an
orginization can have so many smart people involved and perform so
stupidly is one of the major questions of our time.

I expect the psychiatrists have an equally stupid answer, but it appears
to me to be a sort of 'corporate insanity'. It's happened in industry as
well; companies kill their cash-cow product, break the law and assume
they won't be found out, dispense with key staff, etc.
 
M

Mark Fergerson

Since the US right started a war that removed the control over them
without supplying the security needed to prevent the murders and the US
left opposed starting this war, I'd have to say that the political left
has done more to oppose the murders than the US right.

"Started"? When did it "end"? I only recall a "pause"
after Kuwait.
How about: Because the US's CIA can't figure out who we are and their army
is populated by a bunch of wimps.

Could you clarify that sentence? Who's "we" and "their"?
They were afraid of Saddam.

Ah. But did they expect the support (tacit or otherwise)
they're currently getting from the Iraqi civilians?
There has been a quite significant outcry from the US left. You've
obviously been watching the Fox news channel, if you missed it. The US
left has put it in the form of "why didn't we do something to prevent
it?" Its a valid question.

I was unclear. I meant less outcry from the Iraqi
civilians and the Muslim world in general due to _their_
definition of murder.

The US Left is operating on its own definition of murder
of course, and second-guessing is easy for anyone who's
never actually thought out the logistics involved while
slashing military budgets.
Yes thats how Ashcroft dropped the dime on the CIA person[1] to Novac.
[1] I don't remember her name.

What's that got to do with Germany, France, et. al. not
wanting to lose the big bucks?
The extreme US right constantly says the UN doesn't matter and is
useless. Why the heck should US personel die trying to defend a UN
resolution if the UN doesn't matter.

It isn't the U.N., but whether the resolutions made
sense. If they did, they ought to have ben backed up with
force. If they didn't, they shouldn't have been made in the
first place and amounted to U. N. bluster. Which is it?
And yes, I keep going back to the WMDs. No WMDs = no reason for war.

We shall see. The fat lady ain't even warmed up yet. It
appears that Qadaffi didn't blink from simple
good-heartedness, but because he doesn't want to be busted
for hiding his own or somebody else's WMD toys. Be patient.

Mark L. Fergerson
 
J

John S. Dyson

............^^^^^^
Based on what you followed that with, the best you can say is
"maybe" here.
Well, I kind of agree with you, except it is reasonable that some
truckloads of stuff were sent to Syria. However, those truckloads
were probably (maybe?) not anything interesting.
I met some people from a 3 lettered agency of the US government. There
was inteligence in the title but none was detected in what they were
doing. This was before 1995.

Remember the CIA was still saying the Soviet economy was just perking
right along right up to the day the wheels fell off. This was well before
1995 and any downsizing. Based on the latest results, I'd be inclined to
down size them to zero and buy a good dart board. How an orginization can
have so many smart people involved and perform so stupidly is one of the
major questions of our time.
I agree with your analysis of the CIA situation, except the downsizing
and laying off of the greybeards (well, maybe not greybeards, but the
probably most experienced HUMINT types) in the 1995 timeframe was
inexcusable.

The big question (whether or not you and I agree on everything or anything):
HOW IN THE HELL HAS THE CIA BEEN SO DAMNED WRONG, and APPEARED SO
INCOMPETENT????

The weakness of the intelligence community makes the specific choice
of the president to be relatively less important (OR MAYBE NOT?) Perhaps,
in todays' situation, we should want a president who is likely to make
alot of 'noise' against our enemies, but very unlikely to do anything
about it?

With the Iraq situation (before the liberation), it is likely that if
the CIA was 99% correct (instead of 10% correct), then GWB had made
the correct decisions WRT the liberation. (I AM NOT EXCUSING BUSH FOR
HIS OWN MISTAKES.) However, continued inaction was also not effective
(the ongoing likely increases in dealings between Saddam and AlQueda and
the Putin allegations about Saddam's intent to cause damage to the US.)

Trying to figure out the ideal personality for the president (in the
short term) seems daunting. We definitely don't want a French ass-kisser
(because of France's ongoing support of corruption, very much against
the interests of the US.) We definitely don't want someone who is likely
to blindly trust the CIA/NSA/etc, but someone who is able to do the analysis
themselves.

Given the FACT that the CIA is now known to be very unreliable, and
even with input from the British MI6, the results are sometimes INCORRECT,
and it is even POSSIBLE that Putins' claim that Saddam was going to be
more activist against the US is incorrect, then I am hoping that GWB
will NOT trust the CIA as much as it appears that he did. Even the fact
that GWB had kept Tenet in place tends to indicate that Bush did trust
the CIA and the current intelligence community too strongly.

Even though Condi is incredibly intelligent, Cheney is incredibly intelligent
and a good strategic thinker, and Colin is very temperant and wise, the
fact that the the CIA/MI6 intelligence was incorrect seemed to catch
them unaware.

I wish that we had another year to evaluate GWB/Condi/Cheney/Colin team,
so that we can see if they act wisely after the proof of CIA incompetency.

I am not convinced that Kerry could act in a needed aggressive fashion,
given the weakness of the intelligence input (until the intelligence
community is reconstituted.) He would likely be too unlikely to necessarily
express American power, while without further data, it is possible that Bush
(and team) would be TOO LIKELY to express American power. (Purely my
impression.)

In a very basic sense, Bush's team has the intellectual capability and
experience at the high levels of active military and pentagon
management. (Not talking about killing the enemy in face to face situations,
but at the strategy level.)

On the other hand, Kerry's team seems to be fairly biased away from that
area of expertise (I mean the highest levels over long periods), and that
would be MUCH LESS of a problem if the intelligence agencies were trustworthy.

We had recently experienced the smallest amount of a worst-case senerio
(successful attack against the US in the US itself), and with a weak
intelligence community, the anti-military mentality of Kerry would be
worrisome. However, the behavior of the Bush team needs to be proven,
considering their use of American military in a situation where it MIGHT
NOT have been appropriate (but appeared to be approprate given the intelligence
data.)

So, even though my opinion is mixed up, it really should be. We really
have no ideal choices for the president and one choice is only slightly
less dangerous against the US than the other.

I believe that the correct choice (pure opinion) is the choice that is
LEAST LIKELY to appease the demi-imperialist French and their attempted
domination of the EU. I believe that it is fallacious to assume that
irritating the French is necessarily doing the wrong thing. More often
than not, the French have acted on the side of illegal business dealings
and the support of a tyrannical dictator rather than the side of their
so-called friend: the US.

For real (research) information about the French behavior, refer to
www.stratfor.com, and look up "The Chirac-Hussein Connection"
dated Feb 18,2003. This is somewhat off-topic, but only to help
show that 'bias' towards the French position is NOT somehow more
'internationalized', but is more appeasing the French business and
strategic interests (and misbehavior.)

All in all, I am not advocating Bush, but only claiming that of the
2.5 major candidates, there are no ideal choices. Only to make a choice
who will TRY to do the right thing for the US, instead of appeasing
the EU, Bush might be the only choice.

John
 
M

Mark Fergerson

Andrew said:
Just curious - if there are 56 deceits, does this mean all the other
assertions are correct?

So cite a few "correct" assertions.

Mark L. Fergerson
 
R

Rolavine

Subject: Re: Fifty-six Deceits in Fahrenheit 911
From: Jim Yanik [email protected]
Date: 7/21/2004 5:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email protected]>



Don't forget that most DEmocRATs voted FOR the war,Kerry among them.
And Kerry voted against the budget for the war afterwards.

This is more rightest BS, Kerry voted for a war powers act and not for the war.
The war powers act had provisions in it that demanded that Bush seek
cooperation with the UN before invasion. The Bush Admin did not abide by the
terms of this agreement. So this is the type of argument that has noting to do
with either reality or the truth. In short, the typical argument from the
Right.

I don't understand this at all, sound like run on dogma that can't even keep a
straight course.
Actually,the US left has done more to cheer on the terrorists.
--

This is another BS point, the Bush admin reaction to 9/11 has made recruiting
new terrorists a breeze for Al Qaeda. I bet if Osama could vote he would vote
for Bush. Heck, Bush has made the terrorists wildest fantasys of rampant anti
Americanism come true. Why would Osama want an opponent that can actually think
when he can play Buggs Bunny to Bush's 'Yosemite Sam'.

Rocky
 
R

Rolavine

Subject: Re: Fifty-six Deceits in Fahrenheit 911
From: Mark Fergerson [email protected]
Date: 7/22/2004 12:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <HoKLc.15867$Zr.9030@okepread01>



So cite a few "correct" assertions.

To sum up, Bush had a war that did not need to be fought, that made no sense,
that was sold to the Public and the Congress with lies, that did not have
anything to do with 9/11 or fighting Al Qaeda, and that does not benefit
America. This is simply how it is, your fearless leader is nuts!

Rocky
 
J

John Woodgate

So this is the type of argument
that has noting to do with either reality or the truth. In short, the
typical argument from the Right.

.... or the Left, or 3 feet to the middle of Centre. It's called
'politics'. There is nothing remarkable about it.
 
J

Jim Yanik

He may have actually had some at that time. We still don't know the
full story. He sure didn't point at pictures and say "here here and
here" though.


On what basis do you believe that? I haven't heard anything above the
level of pure speculation. The government of Syria wouldn't be being
very smart to let them in.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".
And no one ever accused the Arabs of being smart.
Its not so easy to hide them. The work of digging is hard to hide.
Even if you bury them with no surface trace, they can still be
detected. You have to bury 100 Kg of iron about 30 meters deep to
hide it.

Just searching very large areas is difficult.
And Iraq was very good at camoflage.
 
J

Jim Yanik

news:[email protected]: [..]
Don't forget that most DEmocRATs voted FOR the war,Kerry among them.
And Kerry voted against the budget for the war afterwards.

Only the most cynical among us would have suspected Bush's word that
he knew where the WMDs were. Even I believed it. Their vote makes
sense, given that.

The republicans like to claim that Kerry voted against some needed
funds. The democrats claim that the bill he voted no on contained a
bunch of stuff unrelated to the war and should have been killed.

Personally I don't believe either of them.



Kerry admits to not even reading bills he voted on.
Most of the time,he's not even present for a vote.
No, actually it was the US right that unleashed the terrorists in
Iraq.

The terrorists were already unleashed.
They have provided material support to terrorists all over the
world. Off hand I can only think of one case of the US left
supporting a terrorist and even then, I don't think any money or arms
was sent.

Every time Kerry chastizes the government that they were wrong,he gives aid
to the terrorists.He cheers them on.
 
J

John Woodgate

(in said:
And no one ever accused the Arabs
of being smart.

Oh, don't believe that! When we in Britain were being 1066-ed, and there
were only Native Americans, the Arabs were the world leaders in science
and mathematics, and were pretty well up there in the visual arts and
literature. Lack of the natural resources of coal and iron ore prevented
them from participating in the Industrial Revolution. Apart from the
imperialist activities of European countries, of course.
 
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