Fifty-six Deceits in Fahrenheit 911

[JeffM]

The-Draft-dodger-in-Chief / Deserter-in-Chief

Since all you can offer is your obviously less than objective opinion,
John Fields

As opposed to yours?

which seems to be based on the opinions of others

Opinions my own, thank you.

and since you're referring to your president as a draft-dodger

Lots of guys looked for ways to avoid combat during Vietnam; I accept that.
GWB, with other sons of influential men, had their daddies pull strings
so that he could jump the que and get into that unit of the Texas Air National Guard
widely known as the Champagne Squadron--which would never be called to combat.

This was an interceptor squadron. An interceptor is an aircraft which flies
in straight lines at high speeds; maneuverability is not an issue.
They are tasked to engage strategic bombers.
The only strategic bombers used in Vietnam were flown by Americans
--and I don't recall any reports of a Tu-95 or Tu-16 over Texas.

Not only did the F-102 intercepters of the Champagne Squadron
have ZERO chance of being deployed to Vietnam,
an F-102 NEVER engaged a MiG[1].
There is a reason for that: even as an interceptor,
it was a piece of junk that was replaced by the F-106
and was removed from first-line service
starting 3 years after the first F-102 was delivered to a squadron.
The most common use of the Delta Dagger was as a target drone.
Against a MiG, that is exacly what it would have been.

and a deserter

Interesting how the record of his "military service" seem to have
"disappeared" now that he's Commander-in-Chief.
Recollections do dispute his "service".
Daddy pulling strings yet again to get him out early
and into grad school (I've seen reports
that say that he didn't have the grades to qualify--more pulled strings)
is yet another instance of the "fortunate son".

and you haven't yet been arrested and charged with sedition and treason,
it seems to me that your civil "rights" are still intact.
For the moment, at least.

Exactly--for the moment.
Orwell didn't make it up; he knew full well
of the very real examples of abuses of power during time of war:
Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, the Sedition Act in WWI,
and putting American citizens in concentration camps in WWII
because of the shape of their eyes.
If you let one guy "declare war", the abuses follow;
absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[1] There were a few F-102s--mostly from the Phillipines--
that rotated thru Vietnam, rigged to do some experimental stuff.
In 1968, a MiG returning home took a pot-shot at one of these
(also returing home) and downed it, the only F-102 lost in the theater.

 

[John Fields]

As opposed to yours?

---
Yes. My opinion is that you're a malcontent, troublemaking piece of
shit, and that opinion is objective and drawn directly from reading
your pernicious twaddle, not from reports by others about what their
opinion of your twaddle is.
---

Opinions my own, thank you.

---
More like adopted than your own.
---

and since you're referring to your president as a draft-dodger

Lots of guys looked for ways to avoid combat during Vietnam; I accept that.
GWB, with other sons of influential men, had their daddies pull strings
so that he could jump the que and get into that unit of the Texas Air National Guard
widely known as the Champagne Squadron--which would never be called to combat.

This was an interceptor squadron. An interceptor is an aircraft which flies
in straight lines at high speeds; maneuverability is not an issue.
They are tasked to engage strategic bombers.
The only strategic bombers used in Vietnam were flown by Americans
--and I don't recall any reports of a Tu-95 or Tu-16 over Texas.

Not only did the F-102 intercepters of the Champagne Squadron
have ZERO chance of being deployed to Vietnam,
an F-102 NEVER engaged a MiG[1].
There is a reason for that: even as an interceptor,
it was a piece of junk that was replaced by the F-106
and was removed from first-line service
starting 3 years after the first F-102 was delivered to a squadron.
The most common use of the Delta Dagger was as a target drone.
Against a MiG, that is exacly what it would have been.

---
So, not only do you hate W and his dad, you also hate other infuential
men and their sons because they force you to face the fact that you're
an impotent whiner who's been forced to eat their shit all his life.

Oh, yeah... you also hate F102s.
---

Interesting how the record of his "military service" seem to have
"disappeared" now that he's Commander-in-Chief.
Recollections do dispute his "service".
Daddy pulling strings yet again to get him out early
and into grad school (I've seen reports
that say that he didn't have the grades to qualify--more pulled strings)
is yet another instance of the "fortunate son".

---
You've "seen reports", there are "recollections", but yet you have no
first-hand knowledge of any of it since it's all hearsay colored by
wishes.
---

Exactly--for the moment.

---
Well, then, you'd better get to work and start writing letters to your
congresspeople while you still can...
---

Orwell didn't make it up;

---
Yes, he did. 1984 was a work of fiction.
---

he knew full well
of the very real examples of abuses of power during time of war:
Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus, the Sedition Act in WWI,
and putting American citizens in concentration camps in WWII
because of the shape of their eyes.
If you let one guy "declare war", the abuses follow;
absolute power corrupts absolutely.

---
Yes, and hindsight's 20-20, and you're a fucking idiot if you think
that it should be "business as usual" during times of war.
---

[1] There were a few F-102s--mostly from the Phillipines--
that rotated thru Vietnam, rigged to do some experimental stuff.
In 1968, a MiG returning home took a pot-shot at one of these
(also returing home) and downed it, the only F-102 lost in the theater.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On 17 Jul 2004 23:38:34 -0700, [email protected] (JeffM) wrote:
[snip]

The most common use of the Delta Dagger was as a target drone.
Against a MiG, that is exacly what it would have been.

[snip]

Well said, John!

Here's my latest phrase to use as an insult:

"Dumber than a Democrat" ;-)

...Jim Thompson

 

[Rich Grise]

Wasn't is just below half of the population?

Actually, the 'popularity' of the liberation of Iraq tends towards
greater than 1/2 of the population (depending upon how the questions
are asked.)[/QUOTE]

"Liberation"? Exactly whom is Iraq being liberated from? When
will we liberate them from the US Marines?

 

[Rich Grise]

Wasn't is just below half of the population?

Actually, the 'popularity' of the liberation of Iraq tends towards
greater than 1/2 of the population (depending upon how the questions
are asked.) There are some polls that imply that the popularity has
dropped, but that isn't really consistent. If you are speaking of the
coup attempt against the
consititution by the Gore team -- it is important to remember that
the election of the president is done by the electoral college (and
it is interesting to note that the losers have not seriously endeavored
to change the system.) (The US Supreme court MOSTLY just bounced the
unprecedented and essentially illegal meddling of the Florida Supremes
back to the Florida court. The biggest mistake by the US supreme
court was to imply the laws of physics -- effectively running out of
time, along with the FACT that federal law doesn't allow for modification
of precedent DURING THE ELECTION PROCESS.)

John[/QUOTE]

In case you'd care to check, a majority (5 at last count) of the
Supreme Court are in the pocket of the right-wing hark-line Constitution-
rapers, i.e., minions of Satan.

Where's the balance of power when all three branches are working for
the latest version of Hitler?

 

[Rich Grise]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>


The trouble is precisely that it is NOT that simple. Your first two
statements are true; your third is true or not depending on how you
interpret 'excusable'.

Should we have gone to war against Hitler and Tojo? If so, was that
decision by Chamberlain, Roosevelt and Stalin 'excusable'? Many people
think it was a dire and dreadful necessity, but still a necessity.

There is a philosophy that says, avoid violence if possible, but if
it becomes the only possible means of self-defense, then win, quickly
and decisively.

Since WWII, at which time, of course, the US was fighting against Evil,
there has not been an instance where the US has done either of the
above.

This time, even though very few people seem to notice, the US is on
the side of Evil. This is evinced by their continuing, largely
successful, campaign do destroy Free Will. But people put their
blinders on because the actual truth is way too horrifying.

What you don't know _will_ kill you.

 

[Rich Grise]

Stop replying to this troll! It only encourages him.

Which one?

 

[Rich Grise]

The guy made (at least in your opinion) a mistake. OK, it was a BIG
mistake. Does that justify hate? How big a mistake do you need to make
to become hateful? Is a little bit of hate justified by a small mistake?
How can hate be morally justified? Have you ever made a mistake?

Have you ever made a mistake that resulted in the violent deaths of
thousands of innocent bystanders? And then glossed over it and rationalized
it, and continued to commit the same crimes after being informed of the
irrationality and cost of your "mistake?"

 

[Rich Grise]

Based upon the information given to Bush (and the fact that other
previous presidents had also made the same claims as Bush), then Bush
didn't really make a mistake based upon that information.
If Bush made a mistake, it was that he didn't ignore almost all of
the intelligence sources available to him (including specific information
from Russia/Putin, about the intentions of Saddam.) One thing that
we have learned: it doesn't require the resources of a large 1st
world state (even the marginal ones that are fully militarized) to
perpetrate an effective attack against open societies.

I bet this is a lot of comfort to the families of the Iraqis caught
in US crossfire. "Oh, sorry your dad's dead - King george made a little
mistake. But it wasn't his fault, so everything's OK now."

 

[Xomicron]

In case you'd care to check, a majority (5 at last count) of the
Supreme Court are in the pocket of the right-wing hark-line
Constitution- rapers, i.e., minions of Satan.

Where's the balance of power when all three branches are working for
the latest version of Hitler?

Why do you insist on reinforcing your idiocy?

 

[normanstrong]

What is a "deceit", and how does it differ from a lie?

Norm Strong

 

[Frank Bemelman]

The guy made (at least in your opinion) a mistake. OK, it was a BIG
mistake. Does that justify hate? How big a mistake do you need to make
to become hateful? Is a little bit of hate justified by a small mistake?
How can hate be morally justified? Have you ever made a mistake?

If your socks don't match your shoes, there's no reason to hate you,
let that be clear. But, OTOH, there is nothing wrong with hating war
criminals.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <[email protected]>

This time, even though very few people seem to notice, the US is on the
side of Evil.
Huh?

This is evinced by their continuing, largely successful,
campaign do destroy Free Will.

I haven't notice the US destroying mine recently.

But people put their blinders on because
the actual truth is way too horrifying.

Don't you think you are expressing rather extreme views? Are these the
product of your free will or are you being manipulated?

What you don't know _will_ kill you.

What you think you know that isn't actually true is far more lethal.

 

[John S. Dyson]

In case you'd care to check, a majority (5 at last count) of the
Supreme Court are in the pocket of the right-wing hark-line Constitution-
rapers, i.e., minions of Satan.

Note that there are absolutely NO GOPers on the Florida Supreme Court
who had violated federal precedent and the consitution. An interesting
item of note is that even the chief justice of the Florida Supreme Court
had made note of his own embarassment about the Florida court's totally
political (AFAIR, there was an implication of incompetency) ruling.

A problem with the US Supreme Court rejection of the essentially illegal
(in the sense of Federal law) Florida Supreme court ruling is that the
US Supreme Court had to deal with the messed up rulings from the Florida
Supreme court (and the messed up/precedence violating involvement of
the Florida courts into the election process.) More clearly: the
US Supreme Court had to dirty its hands with the messy (and totally
political screwup) of the Florida Supreme Court.

The US supreme court really did screw up, in that it mistakenly
(probably resulting from disgust) had applied the laws of physics
to the precedent and federal law that is applicable to the election
situation. The laws of physics that were applied did include the
fact that precedent had specified that time had run out, and that
the US Supreme Court rightfully (from a practical sense) had asserted
that time had run out. Wrongfully, in a legal sense, the US Supreme
Court had asserted that time had run out (even though it practically
had run out.) This technicality is often the very desperate basis
of complaining about the 'activism' of the US Supremes resulting from
the application of the laws of physics. If the US Supremes had not
made the assertion, then they would have eventually had to ejudicate
YET ANOTHER violation of precedent.

All in all, this problem for the US Supremes would not have happened, if
the Florida courts had not violated precedent. It is a very clear violation
where the courts start involving themselves in the election process, and
does worsen the screwy mess (without really resolving the problems.) The
temptation for the Florida courts to violate precedent is obvious, but
they should have been able to avoid their 100% political bias in the
Florida Supreme Court.

If you look at the net effect of the courts being involved in trying to
ejudicate the elections, you'll realize that the controversy was continued
because the courts have NO INVOLVEMENT in the election process (well,
except for fraud or other situations of illegality.) The election
process in Florida is a matter for the legislature and their delegated
authority in the executive branch. By violating the precedent, then
FEDERAL LAW is violated.

John

 

[Rolavine]

Subject: Re: Fifty-six Deceits in Fahrenheit 911

From: Xomicron [email protected]
Date: 7/17/2004 2:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email protected]>

[email protected] (Rolavine) wrote in


I didn't think it was possible to be as ignorant as you have proven
yourself to be.

I didn't think it was possible to be as non specific as you have proven
yourself to be. Other than that, thanks once again to the right for proving my
point about your lack of any reasons. I'm still waiting for one of you yappers
to defend the war in Iraq without using a crystal ball.

Racism and a perception of cultural superiority is inherent in most of the
statements of Bush Supporters here. This is the same kind of arrogant clap trap
that comes out of Bush's mouth, the stuff that manufactures terrorists when
heard with middle eastern ears. Some of you urge us to become worse terrorists,
just killing 'ragheads' as an ultimatum to secure some kind of peace in Iraq.
I'm thankful that our degree of hypocrisy is not yet to that level, but this
admin embraced bullshit and opportunism with such fervor that I would not put
anything past their sense of ethics, or their lack of responsibility.

Let me ask you this, if you were selecting someone to do a job, would you pick
someone that has a record of acting before planning, not accepting objective
information that disagrees with his perceptions, and then not taking
responsibilty (I can only learn that I'm right)? I would fire that turkey in a
second, and so should you! Heck, haven't we all had to work with such a person?

Rocky

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher an
animal, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build
a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act
alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a
computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization
is for insects." -- Heinlein

 

[John Woodgate]

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher an animal, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take
orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a
new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Heinlein

But doesn't he assign the words to Lazarus Long, who (will have) lived
at least 2300 years? I've done 14 of those things, and I've no doubt
that many have done 17 or 18. But to learn do all would take more than a
normal lifetime, I would think, unless one deliberately set out to do
it.

 

[Frank Bemelman]

But doesn't he assign the words to Lazarus Long, who (will have) lived
at least 2300 years? I've done 14 of those things, and I've no doubt
that many have done 17 or 18. But to learn do all would take more than a
normal lifetime, I would think, unless one deliberately set out to do
it.

I think it takes more than a lifetime indeed, with the 'dying gallantly'
being part of the list.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Yesterday I listened to Ronald Reagan's "evil empire" speech.
In it he was answering some of his critics who were complaining
about some earlier words he had used to describe the USSR.
Ronnie said that he didn't make up the words they were
complaining about, that he was quoting Lenin. Ronnie then
went on to quote the entire paragraph he had lifted the words
from. The giste of the paragraph was that all morality is, is
that which supports class struggle. If it supports class struggle,
even if is immoral by any other measure, it is moral. And if
it doesn't support class struggle, it is immoral, regardless.
Sound familiar? I'm sure Lenin is glad that Comrade Moore
carries on the battle.

But then Bush defines what he is doing as a kind of class struggle. So
in spite of telling stories about WMD and Iraq's support of terrorists,
he can claim that it still "is the right thing to do".

 

[JeffM]

My opinion is that...[your] opinion is objective

John Fields

I think you mean "subjective"--and all opinions are subjective;
that's why they're called opinions.

Yes, and hindsight's 20-20, and you're a fucking idiot if you think
that it should be "business as usual" during times of war.

If you drop your principles at the 1st sign of trouble,
your principles aren't worth spit
and you may as well adopt those of your adversary
--especially if a casual observer can't tell the difference.

 

[Rich Grise]

Why do you insist on reinforcing your idiocy?

Oh, I'm just proselytizing, like any lunatic with a cause.
Naturally, I claim to know the Real Truth, and everybody else
has their blinders on, and only sees parts. It's kind of an
interesting vantage point, really, for a little while. Seeing
both sides of arguments, that is. But after a while, it gets
a little boring when you see that it's all the same argument.