Employability of Computer Programmers in the US

[Rich The Philosophizer]

So the push to use offshore outsourcing was a practical one. Companies
based in India would offer software analysis to fix the bad code done by
lazy Americans too incompetent to study SW eng principles, they became
proficient, cheap and well known. The stupid, lazy American programmer
type would want $60 per hour or more and milk it for months until
threatened with being fired, then at the last minute throw together some
junk, get paid off, the company would then seek the next lazy bum to
repeat the same cycle. The same task could be done by some India
company for some fraction of cost, delivered in one week instead of 6
months.

And they _really_ hate it when an $8.00/hour temp steps in and shows up a
staff of three ~$100K programmers. ("Oh, they won't be needing you on that
project any more.")

Thanks!
Rich

 

[The Avatar]

One final comment: There are so many languages spoken in India that
when two strangers meet they generally start the conversation in
English, then move to a more common language only if there is one.

Well, that's not really true. The vast, vast majority of Indians don't
speak English-- though the Brits were a hegemon in India for 2
centuries, their power really didn't extend much outside the major
urban centers, so most Indians don't start out with English b/c they
can't *speak* English to begin with; only about 5% of the population,
at most, is really conversant in it.

Usually we'll just start out speaking whatever the lingua franca of the
state in question is, which is Hindi for a plurality of states, or
Tamil, Telugu, or Malayalam in the South (or Bengali for West Bengal,
etc.). Increasingly Hindi is becoming the lingua franca for Bangalore
oddly enough, even though that's in the South. In much of rural India
there's no question about the lingua franca since it's the language of
the state (Gujarati or Marathi for example). Oftentimes we can guess
each other's first language based on accent.

To the extent that India does have a national lingua franca, it's not
English-- rather, it's a sort of "pidgin Hindi" that's got vocabulary,
phraseology, and pronunciation affected by India's other languages, the
Dravidian ones in particular. I don't know what you'd call this--
"modified colloquial Hindi"?-- but this is what you'll increasingly
hear in cities throughout the nation.

So Chinese would be more useful than Hindi, most likely.

I'd never cast doubt on the utility of Chinese, many of us in India are
learning it now, but don't dismiss Hindi so easily. Within 10-20
years, esp. if India becomes wealthier, Hindi will be widely spoken and
it will be a language that people in India expect foreigners learn to
do business there. It's already spoken by close to 600,000,000 people
worldwide (even more than English) and it's numbers continue to rise.
Chinese and Hindi are both going to be very important within a couple
decades.

Vijay

 

[Tim Wescott]

Tim Wescott wrote:




Well, that's not really true. The vast, vast majority of Indians don't
speak English-- though the Brits were a hegemon in India for 2
centuries, their power really didn't extend much outside the major
urban centers, so most Indians don't start out with English b/c they
can't *speak* English to begin with; only about 5% of the population,
at most, is really conversant in it.

Usually we'll just start out speaking whatever the lingua franca of the
state in question is, which is Hindi for a plurality of states, or
Tamil, Telugu, or Malayalam in the South (or Bengali for West Bengal,
etc.). Increasingly Hindi is becoming the lingua franca for Bangalore
oddly enough, even though that's in the South. In much of rural India
there's no question about the lingua franca since it's the language of
the state (Gujarati or Marathi for example). Oftentimes we can guess
each other's first language based on accent.

To the extent that India does have a national lingua franca, it's not
English-- rather, it's a sort of "pidgin Hindi" that's got vocabulary,
phraseology, and pronunciation affected by India's other languages, the
Dravidian ones in particular. I don't know what you'd call this--
"modified colloquial Hindi"?-- but this is what you'll increasingly
hear in cities throughout the nation.




I'd never cast doubt on the utility of Chinese, many of us in India are
learning it now, but don't dismiss Hindi so easily. Within 10-20
years, esp. if India becomes wealthier, Hindi will be widely spoken and
it will be a language that people in India expect foreigners learn to
do business there. It's already spoken by close to 600,000,000 people
worldwide (even more than English) and it's numbers continue to rise.
Chinese and Hindi are both going to be very important within a couple
decades.

Vijay

Ahgh! I've disseminated erroneous information! It's interesting
because I was repeating what was told to me by a friend who's managed
the US side of Indian/US software projects including visits to the
Indian site -- that was what he observed, but I don't think he ever
stepped foot outside of Mumbai.

Thanks for the update. And here I thought I was so clever learning
German in college.

 

[The Avatar]

Ahgh! I've disseminated erroneous information! It's interesting
because I was repeating what was told to me by a friend who's managed

the US side of Indian/US software projects including visits to the
Indian site -- that was what he observed, but I don't think he ever
stepped foot outside of Mumbai.

Thanks for the update. And here I thought I was so clever learning
German in college.

No need to fault yourself for that-- in fact, German is increasing in
popularity as a 2nd language in India (or 3rd, or 4th language-- this
is India after all ) throughout the country. Germany has many local
cultural institutes that Indians take courses in, and more and more
Indians take university courses in and/or immigrate to Germany and
Austria. Plus Germany is also outsourcing some work to India. So I'm
sure German will be a fine choice as well. If I had a hunch, I'd guess
that the 10 most useful second languages over the next century will be
Chinese, Spanish, Hindi, Arabic, English, German, French, Portuguese,
Japanese and Russian.

I suspect that most people would come up with almost the same list,
except they'd leave off Hindi, which is because of the confusion about
English in India (which is not widespread) and the relative lack of
knowledge about Hindi. But it's an extremely important widely spoken
language, over half a billion worldwide, and has increasing literary
and technological cachet. Plus it's quite a beautiful, rich, diverse
and musical language, with many contributions not only from Sanskrit
(source of Hindi) but also Tamil, Farsi, Turkish, Arabic as well as of
course English, Portuguese and French. (BTW Marathi was my first
language but like many other non-native Indian speakers I've picked up
Hindi later.) It's also not that tough to learn from an English
background with many similarities, though Devanagari writing can be
tough to learn at first. It's a good choice for a foreign tongue and
will be ever more useful over the next decade, so don't hesitate if you
want to start learning it. Shubh kamnaye! (Good luck!) Few things
will earn the appreciation of Indians more than Westerners who make the
effort to speak our indigenous languages-- you may find quite a few
grateful customers in India if you do!

Vijay

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Troll or idiot...you decide.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

And they _really_ hate it when an $8.00/hour temp steps in and shows up
a
staff of three ~$100K programmers

It would never happen.

Experience overcomes youthful arrogance everytime.

I hope you can cook hamburgers...with that attitude, you will be doing
it for a long time to come.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Troll or idiot....you decide which...I think you are both.

 

[Too_Many_Tools]

Bradley1234,

You are either a troll or an idiot, in my opinion likely both.

You are NOT a programmer with any level of competence.

Rich,


And they _really_ hate it when an $8.00/hour temp steps in and shows up

a
staff of three ~$100K programmers


It would never happen.

Experience overcomes youthful arrogance everytime.


I hope you can cook hamburgers...with that attitude, you will be doing
it for a long time to come.

 

[Dirk Bruere at Neopax]

Tim Wescott wrote:




Well, that's not really true. The vast, vast majority of Indians don't
speak English-- though the Brits were a hegemon in India for 2
centuries, their power really didn't extend much outside the major
urban centers, so most Indians don't start out with English b/c they
can't *speak* English to begin with; only about 5% of the population,
at most, is really conversant in it.

Usually we'll just start out speaking whatever the lingua franca of the
state in question is, which is Hindi for a plurality of states, or
Tamil, Telugu, or Malayalam in the South (or Bengali for West Bengal,
etc.). Increasingly Hindi is becoming the lingua franca for Bangalore
oddly enough, even though that's in the South. In much of rural India
there's no question about the lingua franca since it's the language of
the state (Gujarati or Marathi for example). Oftentimes we can guess
each other's first language based on accent.

To the extent that India does have a national lingua franca, it's not
English-- rather, it's a sort of "pidgin Hindi" that's got vocabulary,
phraseology, and pronunciation affected by India's other languages, the
Dravidian ones in particular. I don't know what you'd call this--
"modified colloquial Hindi"?-- but this is what you'll increasingly
hear in cities throughout the nation.




I'd never cast doubt on the utility of Chinese, many of us in India are
learning it now, but don't dismiss Hindi so easily. Within 10-20
years, esp. if India becomes wealthier, Hindi will be widely spoken and
it will be a language that people in India expect foreigners learn to
do business there. It's already spoken by close to 600,000,000 people
worldwide (even more than English) and it's numbers continue to rise.
Chinese and Hindi are both going to be very important within a couple
decades.

Vijay

Pity that Sanskrit never got the revival it deserves.

--
Dirk

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