electronics career pit

[nick]

just wondering what you guys are thinking about the job situation at the
moment?

how do:

electronics techs fair?
electricians?
engineers (degreed) ?

as an engineer I see almost nothing being advertised.. well lets say not
much long term secure stuff at least. What is advertised is often mediocre
in terms of pay. To me there seems to be no pay differential anymore between
techs and engineers (the reason I upgraded from a tech).. and from what I
see electricians are probably getting paid the most (for the least study?)

Any comments?

given the economics, is it right to still offer the number of these
engineering courses at uni's knowing all this? or are we training them to
leave our shores for better pay? its dissappointing isnt it for these
graduates?

nick

 

[David L. Jones]

just wondering what you guys are thinking about the job situation at the
moment?

how do:

electronics techs fair?
electricians?
engineers (degreed) ?

as an engineer I see almost nothing being advertised.. well lets say not
much long term secure stuff at least. What is advertised is often mediocre
in terms of pay. To me there seems to be no pay differential anymore between
techs and engineers (the reason I upgraded from a tech).. and from what I
see electricians are probably getting paid the most (for the least study?)

Any comments?

given the economics, is it right to still offer the number of these
engineering courses at uni's knowing all this? or are we training them to
leave our shores for better pay? its dissappointing isnt it for these
graduates?

nick

Depends on what you mean by "engineer"...
If you are talking (electronics) design engineering the majority of
engineering grads are clueless and never get a design role anyway. The
majority end up in other aspects of the field like sales, marketing,
specs, systems, or get jobs that have little or nothing to do with
engineering at all.

In design engineering there are always jobs around if you are good
enough. The market does seem a bit slow at the moment though and good
gigs are getting tougher to find.

Dave

 

[nick]

I know what you mean there are alot of bad engineers around... by engineer I
mean someone with a degree. Not sure how more specific you can be these
days, alot of tafe graduates seem to be claiming to be engineers as well.
Perhaps there are too many levels of training and not enough levels of
employment. I sort of think many of us are a product of our experiences, you
sort of grow as an engineer like everything else, but you need real design
engineering jobs to get there... and they are whats hard to find. There sure
are sales engineering etc jobs around but I could never(so far) bring myself
to apply for them. I always thought that engineer means design and thats
what made them more qualified but I guess if the degree graduates never get
the chance to do any then they will lose (or never develop) those skills.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

just wondering what you guys are thinking about the job situation at the
moment?

how do:

electronics techs fair?

**Dead end job.

electricians?

**Pretty well, unless the building boom falters. Nevertheless, income is
quite reasonable.

engineers (degreed) ?

**In Australia? Forget it!

as an engineer I see almost nothing being advertised.. well lets say not
much long term secure stuff at least. What is advertised is often mediocre
in terms of pay. To me there seems to be no pay differential anymore
between
techs and engineers (the reason I upgraded from a tech).. and from what I
see electricians are probably getting paid the most (for the least study?)

Any comments?

given the economics, is it right to still offer the number of these
engineering courses at uni's knowing all this? or are we training them to
leave our shores for better pay? its dissappointing isnt it for these
graduates?

**You really want to earn some Bucks? Train to be a nurse. Senior, degreed
nurses in the UK can earn around 80,000 Squid PA. That around AUS$200 Grand!
And even a regular nurse can pay off a house within a year or so, if they're
willing to work in the Middle East.

Health care is the way to go, not engineering. Chinese and Indian workers
will price all electronics engineers out of the market, within 10 years (or
less).

 

[Mark Little]

as an engineer I see almost nothing being advertised.. well lets say not
much long term secure stuff at least.

Nothing is secure these days. Having said that, I joined a contract with 6
months to run, 20 years ago. Remember, given the unfair dismissal
provisions, it is often easier to put new people on a short term contract
job so that if they turn out to be duds, they can simply let them go at the
end. Good people go on to the next job and probably made permanent if it is
a large firm. If you are unsure, ask if there is the possibility of follow
on work.

What is advertised is often mediocre
in terms of pay.

Many jobs are not advertised. The company I work for does not advertise
unless it does not have a suitable canditate on its books. I suggest that
you send unsolicited resumes to companies, rather that wait for them to come
to you.

If you are looking for blue sky research and design, then probably your only
bet is in the defence field. In that case, I would be writing to companies
like Boeing, BAE Systems, Tenix, etc. In this area, software knowledge along
with with hardware is very desireable.

To me there seems to be no pay differential anymore between
techs and engineers (the reason I upgraded from a tech).. and from what I
see electricians are probably getting paid the most (for the least study?)

Are you considering apples with apples? Certainly a new engineer gets less
than an experienced technician, but at least where I work, an experienced
engineer gets a lot more than an experienced technician.

regards,
Mark

 

[David L. Jones]

I know what you mean there are alot of bad engineers around... by engineer I
mean someone with a degree. Not sure how more specific you can be these
days, alot of tafe graduates seem to be claiming to be engineers as

well.

Yes, being an "engineer", or "design engineer" often has little to do
with qualifications, esp in the electronics industry. One can be hired
as an "engineer" with no qualifications at all, it is up to the
individual company who hires you. A lot of B.Sc grads get jobs as
engineers too, that seems to be becoming quite popular. They do a
general science degree (or computer science etc) and then find out they
are good at hardware design or whatever.
The formal bodies like the institute of engineers will scream blue
murder of course, but that means nothing. They have little say in
anything.
Many top electronics design engineers do not have degree
qualifications.

Perhaps there are too many levels of training and not enough levels of
employment. I sort of think many of us are a product of our experiences, you
sort of grow as an engineer like everything else, but you need real design
engineering jobs to get there... and they are whats hard to find.

They aren't hard to find if you are keen and sell yourself. Getting a
degree or other qualifications means little in the real world. If you
don't have the aptitude, interest, or the talent then you won't get
very far.

Any smart employer will look completely past any qualifications on the
Resume and really only care about a)how keen you, and b)what experience
you've got. It does not have to be formal job experience either, stuff
you do on the side can count for heaps.
A keen hobbiest with Tafe qualifications will often get the job and the
break over a clueless B.Eng grad.

There sure
are sales engineering etc jobs around but I could never(so far) bring myself
to apply for them. I always thought that engineer means design and thats
what made them more qualified but I guess if the degree graduates never get
the chance to do any then they will lose (or never develop) those

skills.

Most graduates have no design ability what so ever, nor will they ever
regardless of how much they study or what experience they get. It takes
a certain kind of person, and just being able to pass an engineering
degree does not give you the natural ability to be good at designing
something.

Degree's don't teach you design, they teach you (often useless) theory
and how to pass exams. It's usually only the interested ones who
actually come out of it with any decent ability at all.

Dave

 

[Phil Allison]

"David L. Jones"

Yes, being an "engineer", or "design engineer" often has little to do
with qualifications, esp in the electronics industry. One can be hired
as an "engineer" with no qualifications at all, it is up to the
individual company who hires you. A lot of B.Sc grads get jobs as
engineers too, that seems to be becoming quite popular. They do a
general science degree (or computer science etc) and then find out they
are good at hardware design or whatever.
The formal bodies like the institute of engineers will scream blue
murder of course, but that means nothing. They have little say in
anything.
Many top electronics design engineers do not have degree
qualifications.

Getting a degree or other qualifications means little in the real world.
If you don't have the aptitude, interest, or the talent then you won't get
very far.

Any smart employer will look completely past any qualifications on the
Resume and really only care about a)how keen you, and b)what experience
you've got. It does not have to be formal job experience either, stuff
you do on the side can count for heaps.
A keen hobbiest with Tafe qualifications will often get the job and the
break over a clueless B.Eng grad.

Most graduates have no design ability what so ever, nor will they ever
regardless of how much they study or what experience they get. It takes
a certain kind of person, and just being able to pass an engineering
degree does not give you the natural ability to be good at designing
something.

Degree's don't teach you design, they teach you (often useless) theory
and how to pass exams. It's usually only the interested ones who
actually come out of it with any decent ability at all.

Dave

** Well said, Dave.




............ Phil

 

[Geoff C]

well.

Yes, being an "engineer", or "design engineer" often has little to do
with qualifications, esp in the electronics industry. One can be hired
as an "engineer" with no qualifications at all, it is up to the
individual company who hires you. A lot of B.Sc grads get jobs as
engineers too, that seems to be becoming quite popular. They do a
general science degree (or computer science etc) and then find out they
are good at hardware design or whatever.
The formal bodies like the institute of engineers will scream blue
murder of course, but that means nothing. They have little say in
anything.
Many top electronics design engineers do not have degree
qualifications.


They aren't hard to find if you are keen and sell yourself. Getting a
degree or other qualifications means little in the real world. If you
don't have the aptitude, interest, or the talent then you won't get
very far.

Any smart employer will look completely past any qualifications on the
Resume and really only care about a)how keen you, and b)what experience
you've got. It does not have to be formal job experience either, stuff
you do on the side can count for heaps.
A keen hobbiest with Tafe qualifications will often get the job and the
break over a clueless B.Eng grad.

skills.

Most graduates have no design ability what so ever, nor will they ever
regardless of how much they study or what experience they get. It takes
a certain kind of person, and just being able to pass an engineering
degree does not give you the natural ability to be good at designing
something.

Degree's don't teach you design, they teach you (often useless) theory
and how to pass exams. It's usually only the interested ones who
actually come out of it with any decent ability at all.

Dave

I'm an engineer and pretty much agree with all that. I think to do design
you need a passion to do the job. The truth is, design is not at all easy
and there are plenty of softer options with similar money. I employ
engineers to, and a grad's hobby interest can be a good indicator of
someone who is really capable.

I have spoken with obviously talented students from Uni's who have no
intention from the outset of even considering design. Nope, straight to
management is the only objective for many.

 

[Wing Fong Wong]

Most graduates have no design ability what so ever, nor will they ever
regardless of how much they study or what experience they get. It takes
a certain kind of person, and just being able to pass an engineering
degree does not give you the natural ability to be good at designing
something.

I must agree, I know of some really talented TAFE grads and I also know of
uni grads that don't know the first thing about engineering. At the same some
of my classmates aren't really all that interested in engineering, they did
is just because they can. I know a few that have gone into marketing and
finance side of thing and will probably never get to design a single
thing in their life. These people are really interested in engineering,
they're just after more letters after their name. Personally, those that
know me might say that I am almost obssessive about electronics, almost
all that I earn go into feeding this habit, and that the way it should be.
To be great at anything one really must enjoy it with a passion. This is
sadly lacking in many.

I don't think its particularly difficult finding design jobs in Australia,
Perth maybe, but in Australia as a whole there are still jobs available if
one is willing to look.

PS. I'm graduating soon and I'm still looking for the right job, so if
anyone's looking for a dedicated and enthusiatic electronics engineer(more to
the embedded systems side but will strong RF skills too) I am for hire. I'll
have my resume up on my website by the end of the week.

 

[KLR]

**You really want to earn some Bucks? Train to be a nurse. Senior, degreed
nurses in the UK can earn around 80,000 Squid PA. That around AUS$200 Grand!
And even a regular nurse can pay off a house within a year or so, if they're
willing to work in the Middle East.

With the way the west is going with scary (and increasing) amount of
obesity in the general population and higher consumption of the
garbage foods that cause it - the result being that with all the
diseases and illnesses that come with this - I would 1000% agree that
healthcare needs will just grow and grow and anyone who can play any
reasonably skilled part in this industry will be assured a secure and
well-paid job for some time yet.

Health care is the way to go, not engineering. Chinese and Indian workers
will price all electronics engineers out of the market, within 10 years (or
less).

Agreed. Treat it as a hobby or pastime and nothing more, but dont
rely on it long term to keep a roof over your head and food on the
table.

 

[Linas Petras]

Any comments?

Reminds me of "those who can do, those that can't become managers

L

 

[nick]

I agree except for a few points that I will make, and these have to do with
merit.

I see people like Phil constantly putting down uni grads, almost as if you
do a uni course you are no good, and thats crap.

The fact is that many more people do uni courses than should. Often they do
it because they get the HSC score, it sounds cool, and they think they are
going to make a bucket of money. But amongst them are still the good old
fashion hobbiest. Thats right Phil, not all hobbiest become techs, some
strive for greater things. And on average they are the smarter hobbiests.

Regardless of that, the good ones (with the passion) are not being given
their due merit.

Its very easy to sit back, say uni grads are crap, and use that as an excuse
not to do the degree. I find this position nonsense.

Personally if I am to hire an real design engineer, I would never hire a
tafe graduate, simply because I expect an engineer to be scientifically
rigourous, and regardless of the fact that I have met many great techs who
could design, in myself I feel they were all flawed at some level, and that
was at the basic technical level. Now having said that it doesnt mean I
would hire a clueless graduate either.

It annoys me to some extent because I believe strongly in due credit, and I
believe that the best engineers are still those with degrees, and higher
degrees. Basically the argument is that if you can find a PhD with the
Passion (as was put) you have hit paydirt.

This idea that all techs with the Passion are better than uni grads is
nonsense, and I seriously doubt a large electronics company could operate on
this basis. That argument may make Phil all warm and fuzzy, but to spout
that is to propagate a basic lie.

Quite simply we are talking about averages here. In any one qualification
level you can find people who could have done more, but basically it means
electricians are dummer than technicians who are dummer than engineers.

Nick.

 

[Bushy]

You know why uni graduates are taught to wash their hands? It's because they
still don't know not to piss on them.

;<)

Peter

 

[Mike Harding]

well.

Yes, being an "engineer", or "design engineer" often has little to do
with qualifications, esp in the electronics industry. One can be hired
as an "engineer" with no qualifications at all, it is up to the
individual company who hires you. A lot of B.Sc grads get jobs as
engineers too, that seems to be becoming quite popular. They do a
general science degree (or computer science etc) and then find out they
are good at hardware design or whatever.
The formal bodies like the institute of engineers will scream blue
murder of course, but that means nothing. They have little say in
anything.
Many top electronics design engineers do not have degree
qualifications.


They aren't hard to find if you are keen and sell yourself. Getting a
degree or other qualifications means little in the real world. If you
don't have the aptitude, interest, or the talent then you won't get
very far.

Any smart employer will look completely past any qualifications on the
Resume and really only care about a)how keen you, and b)what experience
you've got. It does not have to be formal job experience either, stuff
you do on the side can count for heaps.
A keen hobbiest with Tafe qualifications will often get the job and the
break over a clueless B.Eng grad.

skills.

Most graduates have no design ability what so ever, nor will they ever
regardless of how much they study or what experience they get. It takes
a certain kind of person, and just being able to pass an engineering
degree does not give you the natural ability to be good at designing
something.

Degree's don't teach you design, they teach you (often useless) theory
and how to pass exams. It's usually only the interested ones who
actually come out of it with any decent ability at all.

Dave

Agree completely.

Mike Harding

 

[Wing Fong Wong]

I have just observed my elder son and his friends go
through a four year electronics degree. It did not teach them
how to design - I did much more of that for him than university.
His friends haven't had the advantage of a father in the
business.

True, I can say from what I've done of my uni course so far, is that very
little design is actually taught. We learn very general skills and basic
concepts, and we are left on our own to hone these skills further. Some
take it as a sign that they don't need to learn any more and in a way
they are right, they have all they need to know to pass the exam, but they
are sorely mistaken that their skill are sufficient to be of any use out
there in the world.

Just a slightly off topic question, I am a prolific tinker of
microcontrollers and fpga/cpld, and have stated so in my resume. I have
designed and built many devices, now does it help if I bring in a
physical example of what I've done to my next interview?

 

[Phil Allison]

"Wing Fong Wong"

Just a slightly off topic question, I am a prolific tinker of
microcontrollers and fpga/cpld, and have stated so in my resume. I have
designed and built many devices, now does it help if I bring in a
physical example of what I've done to my next interview?

** IME job interviews are performances and as such are far more about
fantasy than fact - so leave any actual hardware behind.

I advise taking an ENLARGED full colour pic of your latest, hottest
design - make sure to say the words " possible patent " softly and be
veerry cool.

Pepper your explanations with buzzwords and use heaps of unnecessary
argon - once you have the interviewer asking questions about your project
and struggling to understand what you are saying then you have got him
*eating out of your hands* !!





............... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Mike Harding" = grade A pommy bastard

I have spent 30 years in this business all over the world and
worked as everything from an electrician to a leading edge
design engineer and I have met some stupid engineers in
my time!

** While mirror gazing - no doubt.

I have just observed my elder son and his friends go
through a four year electronics degree. It did not teach them
how to design...

** Not unreasonable when you realise none of the uni lecturers have any
damn idea themselves.

( Those who can do ......... )

To become a good designer takes _years_ of experience
irrespective of whatever formal qualification one did. A
degree _should_ lay the foundations upon which to build
those skills - often it doesn't.

** The notion the "engineers" must have academic degrees is a relatively
modern one - based more on trying to elevate engineering to the same fake
*professional* status level as Law and Medicine than anything real.

But the scam never worked - ost engineers are still treated like
expendable employees and paid like bus drivers.

And don't forget an overriding factor here, much more
important than their technical ability: if you employ someone
with a super qualification and he has the people skills of
a teenage crocodile with sore feet... it doesn't matter a toss
_how_ good he is because he's going to cause half of the
people he works with to resign anyway.

** Most engineering types are introverts - so they will become
(reluctantly ) team players but not any sort of leaders.

Give me the less knowledgeable to the disfunctional any day.

** Sure - so a pompous, control freak arsehole like you can lord it all
over the poor sods.

Can you imagine Phil Allison in a team type situation?

** Only as the leader, motivator and with the power to hire and fire.





............. Phil

 

[David L. Jones]

True, I can say from what I've done of my uni course so far, is that very
little design is actually taught. We learn very general skills and basic
concepts, and we are left on our own to hone these skills further. Some
take it as a sign that they don't need to learn any more and in a way

they are right, they have all they need to know to pass the exam, but they
are sorely mistaken that their skill are sufficient to be of any use out
there in the world.

Spot on.

Just a slightly off topic question, I am a prolific tinker of
microcontrollers and fpga/cpld, and have stated so in my resume. I have
designed and built many devices, now does it help if I bring in a
physical example of what I've done to my next interview?

There are pros and cons to this.
Generally speaking, it's a good idea, but be prepared to be grilled to
the nth degree on the entire design.
That's what I do when I'm interviewing someone and they bring in their
own stuff to show off, it's an open invitation.
Make sure you know *every* aspect of the design. This might sound
obvious because it's your project, but I've caught out several guys
this way. When questioned they really don't know much about the design,
like why they laid out the board this way or that, why they chose this
chip over that chip etc. Bullshit answers will show that either it's
not entirely your design, it's just something you copied and fiddled
with, or that you really don't know much about good design engineering
and you just got lucky.

Also, if you are going for a general design position, the schematics,
documentions and source code are often more important to show off than
just a bit of hardware. You always have to tailor your interview for
the particular role.

If I'm trying to decide between two similar candidates and one brings
in their stuff to show off and the other didn't, I'll swing towards the
former.
Not many people bring in stuff to show off, so it makes you stand out.

Of course you often get the moron interviewers who don't know jack (or
just couldn't care less) and they'll just roll their eyes at anything
you show off. These people usually aren't worth working for anyway :->

Another great thing to do in an interview is if they show you one of
their products then wip a swiss army knife out of your pocket and take
the thing apart right their in front of them. Tell them something about
THEIR product and they'll generally be impressed.

Dave

 

[nick]

Ok, I actually agree with some of what you say, but not all. Let me explain.

I was talking about averages, that is the average uni student is smarter
than the average tafe student. I dont think thats anything outlandish, just
a normal fact I think mr and mrs joe public would agree with.

Also I understand what you are saying to some extent about hiring less
knowledgeable people for a better fit. Thats pretty common these days,
especially in australia, the economics are such that it can be disastrous to
get the wrong person, and the typical australian electronics company doesnt
have the money to absorb much of that. In my present role, when I was
appointed one of the selection committee actually said they were appointing
for exactly that reason.

But let me tell you why I wouldn't hire a tafe grad, and why its about
merit. I find these days there are far more uni grads than real jobs around.
Firstly, the clueless ones exist at both tafe and uni. I really dont care if
he's clueless and can solder because the one I'm looking for can anyway. I
always ask what his hobbies at school were, and when he started electronics,
always. Then I never try to pick his brains, I simply ask for him to give me
a short chat about those experiences before he ever went to uni. That chat
has more to do about me summing him up than anything else in an interview.

The very fact that he went to uni instead of tafe is an automatic bonus as
far as I am concerned, as if I have 2 bright young chaps infront of me and
one went to uni and one went to tafe, there is no contest in my eyes.

Now let me tell you something about leading edge. I seriously doubt if you
were ever a leading edge design engineer if you never went to uni. I dont
care who you are or what anyone told you. There is simply not enough leading
edge happening to be able to claim that. A very old teacher when I was at
technical college, before going to uni, told me once, and I have never
forgot it, that when you persue the leading edge, "you become a scientist, a
mathematician and a physicist". And I've never seen anyone from tafe ever do
that.

Lastly let me tell you a story. 3 years ago I was at a uni open day in
brisbane checking out the latest projects at the uni and I met a young chap
there was displaying a voice processor he had made as part of his final year
project. He was a nice fellow, although very quiet. 6 months later I got a
resume from him as he was still looking for a job. In the meantime he had
been working part time in one of his professors labs (maybe paid parttime
but I think he used to live in that lab). I didnt have a fulltime job for
him but I did have a project that needed doing and was able to scrounge the
money to offer him something for 6 months. I needed an instrument to examine
pulses coming out of a piece of equipment we were working on at the time. He
came in, designed a small circuit for a few weeks on a bit of a board. I let
him use whatever micro he wanted. He used a hc11, although we were using
pics at the time. Then he sat down with a maths book for ages, came up with
a closed form solution to an integral transform and coded it onto the board
in C++. Now that kid was smart. No tafe kid on this earth could have done
that.

Much to my dissappointment I was unable to renew his funding and he remained
out of work for a while. I got an email a few months later to say he had
received an offer from a firm in SanDiego. He getting paid now as an
engineer as he deserves and probably will never return.

Likewise I have been lucky enough to have had a couple of PhD's around for
very short periods. Whilst they are not all good, I would never presume to
bag them. I've tried to read some of their published materiel on occassion
and it was beyond me. It seems fashionable in some techy circles to bag
them, but at least where I am I wont tollerate it. I can make judgements
about whether I think their work will earn us any money, but its not my
place to judge them, I've not been in their shoes.

Thats what merit is, reward for hard work. I really feel sorry for grads
these days, when I was in technical college very few of the students were
self funded (most were cadets etc.) these days it appears they have to study
hard, fund themselves and come out into a dead market. And then listen to
people bag them. The only advise I could give many of them is to buy a plane
ticket to get the experience they need.

Nick

 

[David L. Jones]

Ok, I actually agree with some of what you say, but not all. Let me explain.

I was talking about averages, that is the average uni student is smarter
than the average tafe student. I dont think thats anything outlandish, just
a normal fact I think mr and mrs joe public would agree with.

Also I understand what you are saying to some extent about hiring less
knowledgeable people for a better fit. Thats pretty common these days,
especially in australia, the economics are such that it can be disastrous to
get the wrong person, and the typical australian electronics company doesnt
have the money to absorb much of that. In my present role, when I was
appointed one of the selection committee actually said they were appointing
for exactly that reason.

But let me tell you why I wouldn't hire a tafe grad, and why its about
merit. I find these days there are far more uni grads than real jobs around.
Firstly, the clueless ones exist at both tafe and uni. I really dont care if
he's clueless and can solder because the one I'm looking for can anyway. I
always ask what his hobbies at school were, and when he started electronics,
always. Then I never try to pick his brains, I simply ask for him to give me
a short chat about those experiences before he ever went to uni. That chat
has more to do about me summing him up than anything else in an interview.

The very fact that he went to uni instead of tafe is an automatic bonus as
far as I am concerned, as if I have 2 bright young chaps infront of me and
one went to uni and one went to tafe, there is no contest in my eyes.

Of course there isn't, and I'm sure no one would (or has been) argue
that point.
If you have two indentical applicants and they have identical
experience, and both would fit equally well within the team etc and you
can't choose between them - you might as well choose the one with the
most/best education.

But education comes LAST behind experience, enthusiasm and personality.
That is true for every company I have worked for, and most of the
companies I have delt with.
Any smart employer will work the same way, you'd be a fool not to. You
hire someone to do a real job, and a bit of paper means a brass razoo.
There are a few exceptions to this like government jobs and the like
which have inflexiable rules when it comes to hiring.

Now let me tell you something about leading edge. I seriously doubt if you
were ever a leading edge design engineer if you never went to uni. I dont
care who you are or what anyone told you. There is simply not enough leading
edge happening to be able to claim that. A very old teacher when I was at
technical college, before going to uni, told me once, and I have never
forgot it, that when you persue the leading edge, "you become a scientist, a
mathematician and a physicist". And I've never seen anyone from tafe ever do
that.

That's leading edge in theory and research, NOT practical application
as most of electronics engineering is. There is a HUGE difference and
you've missed it entirely.

Lastly let me tell you a story. 3 years ago I was at a uni open day in
brisbane checking out the latest projects at the uni and I met a young chap
there was displaying a voice processor he had made as part of his final year
project. He was a nice fellow, although very quiet. 6 months later I got a
resume from him as he was still looking for a job. In the meantime he had
been working part time in one of his professors labs (maybe paid parttime
but I think he used to live in that lab). I didnt have a fulltime job for
him but I did have a project that needed doing and was able to scrounge the
money to offer him something for 6 months. I needed an instrument to examine
pulses coming out of a piece of equipment we were working on at the time. He
came in, designed a small circuit for a few weeks on a bit of a board. I let
him use whatever micro he wanted. He used a hc11, although we were using
pics at the time. Then he sat down with a maths book for ages, came up with
a closed form solution to an integral transform and coded it onto the board
in C++. Now that kid was smart. No tafe kid on this earth could have done
that.

You gotta be kidding right?
You think that's in any way hard or difficult?, only worthy of degreed
people?
Now let me think for a minute... off the top of my head I know FOUR
*non-degree* qualified electronics guys who could do that without
raising a sweat. Heck, one or two of them would do it "just for fun" to
prove they could.
On top of that, most of them would probably even think of a
better/easier/more novel way to do it than the proposed solution.

Much to my dissappointment I was unable to renew his funding and he remained
out of work for a while. I got an email a few months later to say he had
received an offer from a firm in SanDiego. He getting paid now as an
engineer as he deserves and probably will never return.

Likewise I have been lucky enough to have had a couple of PhD's around for
very short periods. Whilst they are not all good, I would never presume to
bag them. I've tried to read some of their published materiel on occassion
and it was beyond me.

I find that to be an incredible statement coming from a uni zealot such
as yourself.
PhD and "learned" papers are purposely written only to be
understandable by a select few other specialists in that field. You are
not meant to understand them. The introduction is about as far as most
will ever get.
Remember, they often spend YEARS of FULL TIME work reasearching and
writing ONE paper under the strict supervision of another learned PhD
specialist.

As an electronics design engineer if I spend more than a few DAYS
writing a paper (even on topics which need research and for which
little existing literature exists) then I get my ass kicked. It's a
different world entirely.

It seems fashionable in some techy circles to bag
them, but at least where I am I wont tollerate it. I can make judgements
about whether I think their work will earn us any money, but its not my
place to judge them, I've not been in their shoes.

PhD people get bagged a lot because they mostly have a real hard time
actually producing real practical solutions in a short period of time
which is demanded of design engineers.

With a PhD gratuate you are almost guaranteed that they haven't done
any real engineering in the last few years. And any real practical
engineering education they did get in the undergraduate degree is often
sucked out of them by the entirely different demands of a PhD.

I have yet to meet a PhD who can do real practical demand driven design
engineering work, and I've worked with a lot of them. I'm sure they do
exist though :->

No one bags them for the years of hard work they put into getting the
PhD, which is not an easy thing to do. I for one highly respect them
for that, but that does mean they should be respected as practical
engineers, the only way to get that respect is to earn it though
practice.

Dave