Drill tripping earth leakage protector

[Mike Harding]

Nope , that's when we turn off, engineers know everything, no point in
trying to explain anything to them!

And what would you wish to explain to me about testing wiring?
It's hardly rocket science, is it?

Mike Harding

 

[Poxy]

** Shame you did not read or comprehend my earlier post:

" ** RCDs sense current ***only*** - d*.

What did you imagine the f* "C" stands for ??????? "

As I said previously, I think I (and others) have already explained what RCD
stands for and how they work quite comprehensively. The fact that you keep
repeating the same question over and over again leads me to suspect that you
still don't quite get it, which is fair enough, I guess they are relatively
complex devices, depending upon your level of knowledge and experience.

Perhaps if you could contain your anger and frustration just a little and
try and express which bit confuses you. I'm not suggesting I'll be able to
help, but perhaps somone a little more knowledgeable in this forum can step
in and educate both of us!

 

[Poxy]

Far from any genuine interest in Electronics, it occurs to me that you seem
to be intent on using this forum as an opportunity to use a lot of
excessively foul and abusive language for no particular reason. I can only
imagne you think it makes you look "tough" or something. Obviously I'm in no
position to tell you how to behave, but I will suggest that as you get
older, you'll discover that while people sometimes do use strong language,
it tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

As I mentioned in another post, if there is something that is frustrating
you, you should seek to explain yourself without confusing the issue even
more with insults and abuse. As far as I'm concerned, this RCD business has
been explained fully, and until you express exactly what it is you don't
understand, it doesn't make much sense to discuss it further.

 

[Poxy]

Actually PA is a grumpy old man in his late 50's. Lives alone,
apparently always has during most of his "adult" years. Yes, it's
kind of difficult to picture Phil as an adult. His childish
behaviour does tend to give people the impression he's a spoilt
unsupervised adolescent with internet access and his folks don't have
Net Nanny installed on his computer to prevent him from accessing the
newsgroups.

Really? I could have sworn he was a some spotty teenager, priapic with
frustration, rage and unsatisfied needs. The fact the he might be as old as
you say is kind of scary.

Phil dropped out of uni. Basically he's a misfit. He thinks he knows
everything about everything and everything about everyone. A true Net
Stalker. Most of us have learnt to ignore him. He gets off big
time by insulting people and fabricating stories about them. Poor
fellow. His life (if you can call it that) is so miserable and
lonely, the only interaction he has with the outside world is through
his PC. That way he can get to accuse you of all sorts of things and
insult you at the same time with no fear of having to personally
confront his victim. In essence the man is a coward of the first
order.

Frankly I have no desire to confront him - from what you say he sounds like
a bit of a sad case, and while his attitude and conduct is repulsive, I
can't see how beating up the poor fellow would help anything.

As you suggest the wisest approach is probably to ignore him - I do
apologise for extending this thread into a kind of "flame war".

 

[Phil Allison]

"Poxy"

Really? I could have sworn he was a some spotty teenager, priapic with
frustration, rage and unsatisfied needs. The fact the he might be as old
as
you say is kind of scary.

** The Rutmaniac is a damn liar - he has never spoken with me and does not
know me at all.

As you suggest the wisest approach is probably to ignore him - I do
apologise for extending this thread into a kind of "flame war".

** Poxy - you are simply a pompous jerk.

Usenet vermin.




.............. Phil

 

[Alan Rutlidge]

Really? I could have sworn he was a some spotty teenager, priapic with
frustration, rage and unsatisfied needs. The fact the he might be as old
as
you say is kind of scary.


Frankly I have no desire to confront him - from what you say he sounds
like
a bit of a sad case, and while his attitude and conduct is repulsive, I
can't see how beating up the poor fellow would help anything.

I don't think anyone here wants to beat up Phil (although that's only my
opinion). Certainly not me. I just want to slam dunk the prick using the
legal system. Of course I know he's a gutless wanker so he wouldn't dare
repeat his allegations in front of witnesses or risk having his bullshit
recorded to be played back in court. As I've said before, Phil is a coward
and a menace. All the regulars here know it.

The fact that Phil has singled you out for special attention this week is
unfortunate. You are just one on a very long list of people who Phil has
taken a dislike to. Don't for one minute consider yourself an orphan.

As you suggest the wisest approach is probably to ignore him - I do
apologise for extending this thread into a kind of "flame war".

Don't apologise. Phil should be the one for doing that for his inexcusable
behaviour, although hell will probably freeze over first. My advise is give
him absolutely nothing (personally about you) to go on and he will soon
become bored and move on to some other unfortunate soul.

Cheers,
Alan

 

[FruitLoop]

I don't think anyone here wants to beat up Phil (although that's only my
opinion). Certainly not me. I just want to slam dunk the prick using the
legal system. Of course I know he's a gutless wanker so he wouldn't dare
repeat his allegations in front of witnesses or risk having his bullshit
recorded to be played back in court. As I've said before, Phil is a coward
and a menace. All the regulars here know it.

The fact that Phil has singled you out for special attention this week is
unfortunate. You are just one on a very long list of people who Phil has
taken a dislike to. Don't for one minute consider yourself an orphan.


Don't apologise. Phil should be the one for doing that for his inexcusable
behaviour, although hell will probably freeze over first. My advise is give
him absolutely nothing (personally about you) to go on and he will soon
become bored and move on to some other unfortunate soul.

Cheers,
Alan

Yep , pretty well sums it up

 

[Andrew M]

Phil does spout a very small amount of wisdom and fact. The fact that it's
buried in noise is disappointing because he could probably be an interesting
part of this community rather than a disruptive one.

If you don't like listening to him, set your browser to discard his posts.
It's very easy. I've done it - and if you silly bastards would stop replying
to his posts I wouldn't hear of him at all. I'm beginning to think you're
all tarred with the same brush.

-Andrew M

 

[Phil Allison]

Phil does spout a very small amount of wisdom and fact.

** The M stand for "moron " and there really is no-one at home.


Andrew has posted a total of 9 times here - and only began this year.

He is clueless, posturing, vile little shit.





.............. Phil

 

[Alan Rutlidge]

Phil does spout a very small amount of wisdom and fact. The fact that it's
buried in noise is disappointing because he could probably be an
interesting part of this community rather than a disruptive one.

If you don't like listening to him, set your browser to discard his posts.
It's very easy. I've done it - and if you silly bastards would stop
replying to his posts I wouldn't hear of him at all. I'm beginning to
think you're all tarred with the same brush.

-Andrew M

Kill filing Phil only gets rid of Phil's messages. It doesn't stop you
seeing all his stupid rants included as part of other's responses.

Cheers,
Alan

 

[quietguy]

So????? What does one do - chuck away the fridge? Does mfg warranty cover
this situation?


David

 

[Poxy]

"Poxy"


** The Rutmaniac is a damn liar - he has never spoken with me and
does not know me at all.





** Poxy - you are simply a pompous jerk.

Usenet vermin.

Well I must say you do seem to making some effort to improve your language -
while still unnecessarily abusive, I applaud your restraint in not resorting
to foul language - there's hope yet it seems!

 

[Richard Freeman]

This is not legal any longer. While allowed under the older wiring rules,
the current AS3000:2000 do not make an exemption for RCD protection on
fridges.

This must be a fairly recent change - when did this come in ?
must have been in the last 6 years

 

[Phil Allison]

"Richard Freeman"

"David"

This must be a fairly recent change - when did this come in ?
must have been in the last 6 years

** Guess what year AS3000:2000 refers to - Richard.





............. Phil

 

[David]

So????? What does one do - chuck away the fridge? Does mfg warranty cover
this situation?

Best thing to do is to have a seperate RCD/MCB on each circuit. These are
very common know, and if something trips, only one circuit will trip, not
the whole house (makes finding what tripped it much quicker too). Also,
as each circuit is seperate, then each circuit can have up to 30mA leakage
before tripping. If only one RCD is used for the whole house, then total
leakage for whole house is only 30mA. Problem with older RCDs was that
they would trip randomly etc, and take out the whole house, and if you
were not at home, the frige would stop, and you would have rotten food and
a terrible smell. If on indivual RCD/MCBs, then only one circuit would
trip. If the the fridge tripped on 30mA, then something is pretty wrong
with the fridge, and it should be fixed.

David

 

[David]

** RCDs sense current ***only*** - dickhead.

What did you imagine the fucking "C" stands for ???????





** So would I - and that is NOT what I posted !!!!

When an arc is created by a switch opening or BOUNCING at switch on, energy
is lost as radiated power - radiated into space by the cable feeding
current to that arc acting as an antenna. Any AM radio will prove that
fact.

Now - unless the energy radiated by the active and neutral cables is
exactly the SAME - the RCD will sense a current imbalance and TRIP. Some
RCDs may be affected by the radiated RF noise too - and the two effects
can act in unison.

Hence the intermittent nature of the tripping.

There would have to a HUGE imbalance in the radiated power from the
active and neutral to trip and RCD. While the switch is arcing, the
current in active and neutral would still be the same. For a 30mA
imbalance, the active or neutral would have to radiate approx 7.2W of RF
more than the other. This is probably unlikely the prime reason for
tripping.

What is more likely is that there is a residual leakage current in the
house allready, caused by other devices (possibly with a DC bias). This
is probably just below the threshold of the RCD. When the switch is opened
the RFI is then sufficient to unbalance the RCD and trip. This could be
caused by nonlinearity etc in the RCD. This could be because the RCD is
older, and doese not have proper EMC compliance to IEC61008/9. Modern RCDs
are designed not to nuisance trip on voltage spikes, switching transients,
RFI etc.

The random nature of the events could also be caused by the residual
leakage current varying with temperature, or device usage etc.

I would suggest the OP has a qualified electrian check the wiring / RCD in
his house (including the drill) for residual leakage.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"
Phil Allison wrote:
Some dickhead:

There would have to a HUGE imbalance in the radiated power from the
active and neutral to trip and RCD. While the switch is arcing, the
current in active and neutral would still be the same. For a 30mA
imbalance, the active or neutral would have to radiate approx 7.2W of RF
more than the other. This is probably unlikely the prime reason for
tripping.

What is more likely is that there is a residual leakage current in the
house allready, caused by other devices (possibly with a DC bias). This
is probably just below the threshold of the RCD.
When the switch is opened
the RFI is then sufficient to unbalance the RCD and trip. This could be
caused by nonlinearity etc in the RCD. This could be because the RCD is
older, and doese not have proper EMC compliance to IEC61008/9. Modern RCDs
are designed not to nuisance trip on voltage spikes, switching transients,
RFI etc.

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be from the
*active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

A burst of RF voltage superimposed on the active will likely increase
current leakage significantly - moisture etc being a good RF conductor plus
aided by the pre-bias of the supply voltage. However a similar burst of RF
voltage will cause a lesser leakage to earth via the neutral - simply
because there is no pre- biasing voltage difference.

The resulting difference in leakage current may be all it takes to trip the
RCD so radiated RF into "space" may well be not very significant in this
case.

However, even portable ( ie plug in) RCDs suffer false tripping due to
switch arcing - this may be a design issue re EMI susceptibility.




............ Phil

 

[David]

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be from
the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

No, a neutral to ground fault can cause leakage current as well. Try
shorting the neutral to ground on a socket outlet. The RCD will most
likely trip.

Despite the neutral being tied to earth at the MEN point (assuming an MEN
system), due to voltage drops in the neutral wiring, the neutral will be
above ground potential in most places in the wiring system. You can easily
get 2 to 5 VAC neutral - earth. A lowish resistance fault can then cause
the required residual leakage current. The neutral is considered a "live"
conductor by the wiring rules. While not affecting normal operation of a
device, a neutral to earth leakage can cause the RCDs to trip.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"

No, a neutral to ground fault can cause leakage current as well.

** Irrelevant to any of my points.

Current flow due to a short is not "leakage" - you ass.

Kindly **** off.



............. Phil

 

[David]

"David"



** Irrelevant to any of my points.

Current flow due to a short is not "leakage" - you ass.

Please go back and read my post properly, and point out where I said a
short is leakage. My words which you omitted were "A lowish
resistance fault can then cause the required residual leakage current".

Your statement

is not necessarily true, and if you only check the active for leakage you
may not find the cause. You will need to isolate the neutral and test that
for leakage too, as anyone compentent to test wiring would know and
understand.

David