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Does solder fume contain lead content?

C

ChairmanOfTheBored

I agree with Richard. I know 300 degrees is far less then lead boiling
point. However when being heated, the resin vapour may carry
substantial amount of fine lead particles into the air. What do you
think?


I think that solder sitting molten in a solder pot oxidizes. Freshly
heated solder included with flux is virtually oxide free, and the smoke
from the flux is... smoke... not smoke with oxide "dust".

The tip of your iron has such oxides AFTER it sits with a drop of
solder on it after a while. That's what the purplish discolorations are.
New solder, particularly that which is bathed in flux has no oxides.
Oxides take time, exposed to OXYGEN to form, and they do not immediately
start roaming around in the air.

You're a hypochondriac, and the other guy is a speculative dope.
 
R

Richard Henry

I think that solder sitting molten in a solder pot oxidizes. Freshly
heated solder included with flux is virtually oxide free, and the smoke
from the flux is... smoke... not smoke with oxide "dust".

The tip of your iron has such oxides AFTER it sits with a drop of
solder on it after a while. That's what the purplish discolorations are.
New solder, particularly that which is bathed in flux has no oxides.
Oxides take time, exposed to OXYGEN to form, and they do not immediately
start roaming around in the air.

You're a hypochondriac, and the other guy is a speculative dope.

I know some people can't help themselves (especially when posting
anonymously) but when a poster resorts to fact-free personal attacks,
I take as symptomatic that he lacks confidence in the factual content
of the position he is posting and is hoping to drive any rebuttals
away with unpleasantness.

So let's look at the last post: interesting... If I understand it
correctly, when working with a lead-alloy solder, there is no hazard
as long as one avoids bringing the alloy into contact with heat and
oxygen.
 
M

mpm

Whenever I've worked with soldering for a period of time, say 1 hour,
my brain starts to feel a bit fuzzy and concentration begins to
deteroriate. It makes me wonder whether this is the effect of lead
particles contained by the soldering smoke, or am I just being tired
and panaroid. Suprisingly though, I don't have much of the same
feeling when working with lead-free solder. Does anyone know if there
are any studies having done on this concern, such as the concentration
of lead released in fume? Thanks.

There are lots of compounds in solder and solder fumes that you really
should not ingest.
A simple blood test can confirm or deny lead poisioning...

-mpm
 
R

Richard The Dreaded Libertarian

You're a goddamned idiot. Protective layer of a known deadly
carcinogen. What a retard you are.

Sorry, I haven't swallowed the antismokerists' cult dogma.

Smoke is NOT the cause of cancer. If it were, then every smoker would
get cancer, which they don't, and NO nonsmokers would get cancer, which
they do.

Cancer is caused by denied self-hatred.

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Richard Henry

Sorry, I haven't swallowed the antismokerists' cult dogma.

Smoke is NOT the cause of cancer. If it were, then every smoker would
get cancer, which they don't, and NO nonsmokers would get cancer, which
they do.

Cancer is caused by denied self-hatred.

Is that part of your religion, also?
 
W

whit3rd

Okay, Mister Smarty-Boots, what's the vapor pressure of lead at 370F?

Good question, actually; it's on the order of 10**-11 torr, really
hard
vacuum. And vapor pressure of lead/tin solder will be lower, there's
some boiling-point elevation due to the 'impurity'.

To get up to soft-vacuum range (10**-3 torr) you have to take lead to
620C :== 1148F.

See Rev. Sci. Instr _19_, 920 (1948) by R. R. Law, for more details.
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

I know some people can't help themselves (especially when posting
anonymously) but when a poster resorts to fact-free personal attacks,

Him being a hypochondriac is obvious. At least to anyone with an IQ
over 40.
I take as symptomatic that he lacks confidence in the factual content
of the position he is posting and is hoping to drive any rebuttals
away with unpleasantness.

You're a goddamned idiot.
So let's look at the last post: interesting... If I understand it
correctly, when working with a lead-alloy solder, there is no hazard
as long as one avoids bringing the alloy into contact with heat and
oxygen.

Wrong again, asswipe. You conveniently left out more than a few
factors.

1) For one thing, even a solder pot takes a while for "dross" (Lead
oxides, idiot) to form, and that occurs when there is *no* flux present.
It also occurs in a steady state, and does not put any "dust" into the
air, unless some total retard is tossing it up like a salad. Even when
it is dragged to the side of the solder pot, it stays IN the pot.

2) A soldering iron should only have solder on it when performing a
soldering operation. Otherwise, it should have been wiped clean, and be
shut off. So there won't be any "dross" to speak of on the solder tip.
And that leaves us with:

3) When said iron IS in use, there is almost certainly flux present, and
when the flux is present, the Oxygen is not. Why do you think solder
joints are 100% free of dross and have perfect microcrystalline
structures?

Clue: It isn't because they are forming Lead oxides, much less Lead
oxide dust!
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

There are lots of compounds in solder and solder fumes that you really
should not ingest.
A simple blood test can confirm or deny lead poisioning...

-mpm

I have worked around and with solder for thirty years, and my Lead,
Mercury, and Cadmium counts are quite low.
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

Sorry, I haven't swallowed the antismokerists' cult dogma.

So you're not just an idiot, you're a non-dogmatized idiot.
Smoke is NOT the cause of cancer.

Sure it is. It causes cell mutation.
If it were, then every smoker would
get cancer,

Wrong, dipshit. Not everyone has the same susceptibilities to chemical
attack.
which they don't,

Fucktard logic.
and NO nonsmokers would get cancer, which
they do.

Ever heard of second hand smoke, dumbfuck?
Cancer is caused by denied self-hatred.

Your utter stupidity is caused by you thinking you are smart, when in
fact, you only possess a 30 IQ.
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored


Vapor Pressure (mm Hg.): LEAD ONLY: Health Significance ONLY >500C

Solder pots are at 525F! Soldering irons should be no more than 600F!

Irrelevant. You think that dweeb actually gets to use Tin Silver
solders?


100% irrelevant.
 
W

whit3rd

Vapor Pressure (mm Hg.): LEAD ONLY: Health Significance ONLY >500C

Solder pots are at 525F! Soldering irons should be no more than 600F!

For reference, 525F :== 274C, 600F :== 315C, and the MSDS claims
health significance to Pb vapor starts at 500C :== 930F.

Solder pots to tin wire by burning off the insulation are kept
hotter than
that, and soldering irons routinely are used at 800F for some kinds of
operations (desoldering, mainly). Thermostats can fail and
temperatures
in gas-torch soldering can get high enough.

However: any normal room has LOTS of surfaces in contact with
air, all of which will condense out any vapor because they're cooler
than
the 500C temperature. It isn't normal outside a smelter to have a
working
environment that has significant Pb vapor pressure, because the
work environment doesn't consist mainly of hot-solder surfaces and
lungs.

The most important danger in soldering: you might pick up the iron
by
the barrel. That hurts.
 
R

Richard Henry

You were STILL wrong, fucktard. Your snippage proves it.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're still offensive, right or not.
 
G

Guy Macon

OSHA comments from the January 19, 1989 Final Rule on Air Contaminants
Project (extracted from 54FR2332):

"OSHA previously had no limit for rosin core solder pyrolysis products.
Based on the ACGIH TLV, the Agency proposed an 8-hour TWA of 0.1 mg/m3
for these compounds, measured as formaldehyde. OSHA has determined that
a TWA limit of 0.1 mg/m3 is necessary to prevent workers from experiencing
severe irritant reactions, and the Agency is including this limit in i
ts final rule. This limit applies to the thermal decomposition products
of gum rosin soldering flux (3 to 6 percent rosin and 30 to 70 percent
tin-lead solder)(Lozano and Melvin, unpublished data, as cited in ACGIH
1986/Ex. 1-3, p. 514).

"A two-week exposure of guinea pigs and rats to these products at average
concentrations of 0.96 mg/m3 caused reduction in rate of weight gain in
male guinea pigs, abnormal liver-to-body-weight ratios in guinea pigs
of both sexes, and abnormal heart-to-body-weight ratios in male rats
(Industrial Bio-test Lab, Inc., as cited in ACGIH 1986/Ex. 1-3, p. 514).
Lungs of the animals exposed in this same study were hyperemic.

"In humans, slight bronchial irritation has been reported at 1 mg/m3
(Industrial Bio-test Laboratories, Inc. 1967, as cited in ACGIH 1986,
p. 514). Several workers who were chronically exposed to levels as
high as 0.15 mg/m3 had to be removed from exposure because of
intractable upper respiratory tract irritation; when concentrations
were kept below 0.1 mg/m3, such irritation was not reported (Christy
1965, as cited in ACGIH 1986/Ex. 1-3, p. 514). In a study designed
to quantify dose-response levels for irritation in human volunteers,
subjects were exposed for 15 minutes to these products at aldehyde
concentrations (measured as formaldehyde, which is the best indirect
measure of rosin pyrolysis products) of 0.04 to 0.2 mg/m3 (U.S.
Public Health Service 1965, as cited in ACGIH 1986/Ex. 1-3, p. 514).
Subjects detected the odor at 0.07 mg/m 3, and 80 percent of subjects
reported moderate to severe irritation of the eyes, nose, and throat
at concentrations of 0.12 mg/m3 or above. At levels below 0.05 mg/m3,
fewer than 10 percent of subjects experienced irritation. Mucous
membrane irritation occurred in 30 percent of subjects exposed at
0.07 mg/m3 (U.S. Public Health Service 1965, as cited in ACGIH
1986/Ex. 1-3, p. 514).

"NIOSH (Ex. 8-47, Table N6B; Tr. p. 3-97 to 3-98) did not concur with
OSHA's selection of a TWA limit of 0.1 mg/m3 and recommended a ceiling
limit of 0.1 ppm for a 15-minute period. In addition, NIOSH (the only
commenter to the rulemaking record) considers these thermal decomposition
products to be likely candidates for a separate 6(b) rulemaking.

"OSHA is establishing an 8-hour TWA limit of 0.1 mg/m3, measured as
formaldehyde, for rosin core solder pyrolysis products. OSHA concludes
that this limit will protect employees from the significant risk of
respiratory tract irritation, which is a material impairment of health,
that exists at levels above the new PEL."
 
G

Guy Macon

If, as has been claimed, Lead at soldering temperatures does not
outgas lead compounds, (argument based on the vapor pressure of
lead), then by the same logic a charcoal grill doesn't outgas
carbon compounds either. After all, carbon has a very high vapor
pressure and a very high melting point.

In real-life, carbon heated in the presense of air forms carbon
dioxide and cabon monoxide, both of which are gases at room
temperature. The high vapor pressure just means that you won't
get pure carbon gas, not that you won't get carbon dioxide or
carbon monoxide gas. The vapor pressure and melting point of
an element tells you nothing about the vapor pressure and
melting point of oxides, sulphates, etc. of that element.

It is also pretty silly to refer to the melting and boiling
points of pure lead when you already know that you are dealing
with a tin-lead alloy with a melting point lower than tin or lead.

Lead readily oxidises to lead monoxide. This causes the gray
color you see. Scrape the lead with a knife and you will see
that unoxidised lead is bright and shiny. This oxidisation
is purely a surface effect; to get the lead to actually burn into
lead monoxide in bulk takes over a thousand degrees F.

Tin-lead solder does not show the same grey lead monoxide surface,
because it preferentially forms a *tin* oxide film. This forms as a
byproduct a small amount of micron-sized lead monoxide dust (Litharge
and Massicot forms) on the surface. That's why washing your hands
after soldering is important.

Lead monoxide and water vapor form lead hydroxide and, with the
carbonic acid in the water vapor, lead carbonate. I do not know
to what exient the lead hydroxide and lead carbonate get into the
smoke from the flux. I would geuss not much, but I have no data.
 
M

MooseFET

For reference, 525F :== 274C, 600F :== 315C, and the MSDS claims
health significance to Pb vapor starts at 500C :== 930F.

BTW:

I good estimate of vapor pressure is that it follows a 4th power curve
from the freezing to the boiling:


( (T - TFreeze) / (TBoil-TFreeze) )^4
From this you could figure out about how far below the danger level
the vapor pressure is at normal temperatures. Since soldering is near
freezing the estimate will be so-so but still fair.
 
C

ChairmanOfTheBored

"OSHA is establishing an 8-hour TWA limit of 0.1 mg/m3, measured as
formaldehyde, for rosin core solder pyrolysis products. OSHA concludes
that this limit will protect employees from the significant risk of
respiratory tract irritation, which is a material impairment of health,
that exists at levels above the new PEL."


Which has EVERYTHING to do with the flux, and NOTHING to do with the
lead in the solder!
 
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