dialup issues

[klem kedidelhopper]

I have two pots lines in my house. One is business class and the other
is residential. As far as I can tell the one difference between the
two is that the phone company gets to charge me twice as much for the
business line.

A few years ago before we went to DSL we had dialup service here. On
the business line I was never able to get any better than a 26K
connection. I never really investigated this and with no audible
aberrations on the line this was never a problem as we just used the
dialup on the residential line instead. On that line we usually could
get a 45K connection and sometimes even 50.

I recently dropped the DSL service and will likely drop the
residential service as well. We went back to dialup with the same
provider. The business line speed problem noted years ago is still
there. I've dialed up the telco's "quiet line" to listen to both lines
off hook, (while we still have the residential line) and they both
sound clean. I plan to go to the interface to look at this but we now
have a big storm coming so for now the 26K will suffice. If plugging
directly into the interface yields a good (45K) connection on the slow
line then I realize that the problem is then in the premises and I'll
have to troubleshoot that.

My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring it
would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The phone
company by the way has been no help with this.

If anyone has any ideas that they would share I would be extremely
grateful. Lenny

 

[William Sommerwerck]

I've seen pairs in the same bundle, where most work just fine,

but where one or two pairs are garbage or worse.

So... inasmuch as a house's internal cabling usually has unused pairs -- would
it be worth switching to another pair?

 

[Sofa Slug]

On 2/8/2013 9:22 AM, klem kedidelhopper wrote:

I plan to go to the interface to look at this but we now have a big
storm coming so for now the 26K will suffice. If plugging directly
into the interface yields a good (45K) connection on the slow line
then I realize that the problem is then in the premises and I'll have
to troubleshoot that.

My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could
be the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring
it would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The
phone company by the way has been no help with this.

If anyone has any ideas that they would share I would be extremely
grateful. Lenny

FWIW, I had a problem with low DSL speed similar to yours. It turned out
to be a tarnished/corroded RJ-11 wall plate jack. Once the wall plate
was replaced, the problems disappeared.

 

[Fred McKenzie]

My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
the most likely cause of something like this?

Klem-

There should be a modular phone connector in the box where your phone
line attaches to the house. You can isolate a problem to being inside
or outside, by connecting your equipment to the outside jack, and seeing
if the problem goes away.

Fred

 

[mike]

I have two pots lines in my house. One is business class and the other
is residential. As far as I can tell the one difference between the
two is that the phone company gets to charge me twice as much for the
business line.

A few years ago before we went to DSL we had dialup service here. On
the business line I was never able to get any better than a 26K
connection. I never really investigated this and with no audible
aberrations on the line this was never a problem as we just used the
dialup on the residential line instead. On that line we usually could
get a 45K connection and sometimes even 50.

I recently dropped the DSL service and will likely drop the
residential service as well. We went back to dialup with the same
provider. The business line speed problem noted years ago is still
there. I've dialed up the telco's "quiet line" to listen to both lines
off hook, (while we still have the residential line) and they both
sound clean. I plan to go to the interface to look at this but we now
have a big storm coming so for now the 26K will suffice. If plugging
directly into the interface yields a good (45K) connection on the slow
line then I realize that the problem is then in the premises and I'll
have to troubleshoot that.

My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring it
would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The phone
company by the way has been no help with this.

If anyone has any ideas that they would share I would be extremely
grateful. Lenny

I had a speed problem back in the day.
Called the number (in india) on the bill and was told the line was fine.
But they'd gladly send someone out to tell me the same thing for a fee.
I poked around and discovered the direct phone number to the district
manager in my town. Problem was fixed in minutes. Somebody had the
switch in the wrong position back at the CO.

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

Well, not always.  We have corrosion IN the demarcation box, and that
RJ11 needs to be replaced every couple years.  This is St. Louis, MO.,
humid, but not insanely so.  You can tell because the whole connector
turns black, both the jack and most especially the plug on the
pigtail, where it is really obvious because it is supposed to be
clear plastic.

Jon

Well I guess that before tearing my house wiring apart I'll go to the
demarc, (after this monster storm the Northeast is having is over) and
see if the line to the CO without the premises wiring in parallel with
it gets me a good connection. The best I can hope for is that it
doesn't. Then I'll know my fight is with the telephone company. That
will be interesting to see what kind of shit they'll give me at that
point as they also provide dialup service, but at 4 times the cost of
my provider.. Lenny

 

[[email protected]]

Well I guess that before tearing my house wiring apart I'll go to the
demarc, (after this monster storm the Northeast is having is over) and
see if the line to the CO without the premises wiring in parallel with
it gets me a good connection.

If you can get into the "phone company only" side of the demarc, do so.
It should have a surge protector for each line, with three terminals:
two for the line and one for ground. Sometimes these go wrong. You can
temporarily disconnect the line from the surge protector (on a nice
sunny day) and see if that improves things. (It may help to have a
couple of sets of 6-32 screw, nut, and washer to make this connection.)
Since you have two lines, you could also swap the protectors to see if
there is a change. Don't run without the surge protector forever; just
long enough to see if there is a change. Also, there is 48 VDC across
each line and up to 90 VAC if it rings, so be careful. You can also
check for water, flora, and fauna in there. When you are done,
carefully put it back together the way it was.

It is also worth applying an eyeball to the pedestal (underground cable)
or splice cover (overhead) where your wire joins the cable in the
neighborhood, to look for missing/damaged covers, signs of trees or
critters or water getting in, etc. These are not really your baby to
fix but you can point them out to the lineman.

Matt Roberds

 

[[email protected]]

Black or dark brown is copper oxide.  My guess(tm) is that you do not
have gold contacts and have not applied any silicon grease to the
contacts to keep the moisture out.  Clean the connectors, apply some
grease, and it should last longer.

Incidentally, the new AT&T NID (demarc) boxes are now coming with a
different flavor of disconnect.  Instead of the RJ11 with a flat cable
jumper, it's now integrated with the inside line connector.  Swivel
the assembly and it automatically disconnects.
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/ATT-Demarc/index.html>
I'm tempted to put the old box back.

--
Jeff Liebermann     [email protected]
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

looks like you can't tell anything now with the connections
concealed. Progress???????

 

[micky]

I have two pots lines in my house. One is business class and the other
is residential. As far as I can tell the one difference between the
two is that the phone company gets to charge me twice as much for the
business line.

A few years ago before we went to DSL we had dialup service here. On
the business line I was never able to get any better than a 26K
connection. I never really investigated this and with no audible
aberrations on the line this was never a problem as we just used the
dialup on the residential line instead. On that line we usually could
get a 45K connection and sometimes even 50.

I recently dropped the DSL service and will likely drop the
residential service as well. We went back to dialup with the same
provider. The business line speed problem noted years ago is still
there. I've dialed up the telco's "quiet line" to listen to both lines

What's the quiet line? Does every phone company have this? Does
Verizon?

off hook, (while we still have the residential line) and they both
sound clean. I plan to go to the interface to look at this but we now
have a big storm coming so for now the 26K will suffice. If plugging
directly into the interface yields a good (45K) connection on the slow
line then I realize that the problem is then in the premises and I'll
have to troubleshoot that.

My question is if the problem is in the premises wiring what could be
the most likely cause of something like this? As I previously
mentioned I can't "hear" any problem but of course that doesn't mean
that one doesn't exist. Before I start dismantling my inside wiring it
would be nice if I had a clue as to what I was looking for. The phone
company by the way has been no help with this.

I have little experience and almost no idea if this relates to you,
but I have a story. And it's about DSL, not even dial-up. So for
that reason too, maybe it has no application to you. But it's a good
story.

I signed up for that 5 years ago, and using some webpage to measure my
speed, was never getting nearly as fast as I should Also, I have an
indoor wiring problem that comes and goes, and so I had run a wire
from the outside interface, up the front of the house and straight to
a simple splitter, DSL and telephone.

This meant I could only close the window and storm window maybe 95%.
I was using the kind of 4 conductor wire used to connect phones to the
wall.

To close the window 100%, I bought special, thin, flat phone wire,
from the phone section of Home Depot, meant for places like this,
between windows and the window frame. .

A few ways later, my phone continued to work, and the web radio
worked, but newsgroups, email, and web did not. I was stumped, and
the Verizon DSL guy come over. He said there is mor e than one level
of the phone line not working, and of DSL not working.. So the fact
that the phone and the web radio worked, didn't mean DSL was fully
working. He said the wire going out the window was too thin. (Or
maybe it had to do with too thin considering my aluminmum window
frames (both surrounding the glass and lining the window opening.

So now, for the last year, I use the kind of 4-conductor phone wire
that people put inside walls, stiffer and thicker,, and my download
speed has tripled and stayed tripled. .

(I'm still not using the thickest or stiffest wire used for that, but
I'm at the speed they promised me, so I suppose going to even thicker
wire won't help

I used other methods to keep the cold air from coming in the window
around the wire.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

A few ways later, my phone continued to work, and the web radio
worked, but newsgroups, email, and web did not. I was stumped, and
the Verizon DSL guy come over. He said there is mor e than one level
of the phone line not working, and of DSL not working.. So the fact
that the phone and the web radio worked, didn't mean DSL was fully
working. He said the wire going out the window was too thin. (Or
maybe it had to do with too thin considering my aluminmum window
frames (both surrounding the glass and lining the window opening.

That's because DSL is "adaptive". The devices at each end are "smart" and
try the maximum speed they can. If that fails, or they get too many errors,
they try a lower speed until they can connect.

Analog modems do that too.

I can connect to the web browser interface of my DSL routers (which include
"modems") and see the exact speed the line is capable of, the speed it is
running at and the error rates. I can even run a BER (bit error rate) test
without disturbing the line.

In my case it's not very useful, as the DSL portion of my phone service
runs few hundred meters. It goes to a box somewhere near my home which
converts the DSL and analog voice to fiber optics.

That device is even smarter than you would expect, it opens its own
trouble tickets with the phone company and sends me SMSs when it does
or they are resolved.

Geoff.

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

That's because DSL is "adaptive". The devices at each end are "smart" and
try the maximum speed they can. If that fails, or they get too many errors,
they try a lower speed until they can connect.

Analog modems do that too.

I can connect to the web browser interface of my DSL routers (which include
"modems") and see the exact speed the line is capable of, the speed it is
running at and the error rates. I can even run a BER (bit error rate) test
without disturbing the line.

In my case it's not very useful, as the DSL portion of my phone service
runs few hundred meters. It goes to a box somewhere near my home which
converts the DSL and analog voice to fiber optics.

That device is even smarter than you would expect, it opens its own
trouble tickets with the phone company and sends me SMSs when it does
or they are resolved.

Geoff.

Quiet line numbers are often like ANI numbers (for identifying the CO
line), which are "top secret" within the phone company. The phone
company will never give them to you, but a cooperative lineman might
after you've established a rap or with him on a job. Some of the older
local exchanges here in New England worked with 200-2222222. Lenny

 

[josephkk]

If you hear buzz, clicks, hummmmm, noise, crackly, etc on the phone,
the first step is to determine whether it's a problem at the CO
(central office), on the line, or somewhere in the inside wiring. To
eliminate the inside wiring, simply plug the tester into the NIU
(demarc), thus disconnecting the house wiring. To determine if it's
coming from the switch at the CO, dial a quiet line number. All it
does is terminate the call to a perfect dummy load, that does NOT go
through the switch. If the noise disappears, it's coming from
somewhere inside the CO. If it's still there, it's on the line
somewhere.


Yes, yes, and I don't know the Verizon number.

Please provide any number that you know. I am willing to bet that it is
industry standard.

?-)

 

[josephkk]

Quiet line numbers are often like ANI numbers (for identifying the CO
line), which are "top secret" within the phone company. The phone
company will never give them to you, but a cooperative lineman might
after you've established a rap or with him on a job. Some of the older
local exchanges here in New England worked with 200-2222222. Lenny

How about that. Many 555-#### numbers are various diagnostic systems.

?-)

 

[micky]

Nope. Except for directory assistance, the 555 prefix is reserved for
"fake" phone numbers, as used in movies and videos.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/555_(telephone_number)>

I hate when they use a 555 number in a movie. For gosh sakes, how
stupid would someone have to be to think the number they give in a
movie is really the number of someone like the character in the movie?
Calling those numbers should seem like calling random numbers. **

I also hate it when they remove t he rear-view mirrors of movie cars.
I've seen a few movies where they leave the rear view mirror and it
looks a lot better. It doesn't distract from the actors. It's a
much bigger distraction when it's not there.


On Law & Order, they always give the address of tte place they are
going. Often it's in the East River or Hudson River, but it still
indicates teh area they have in mind. Other times it would be in a
real block, residential even, but I assume the number they give is
between two real addresses. I have a good friend at W. 85th and
Columbus, and according to Law & Order, a lot goes on within a block
of her apartment.

 

[micky]

Please provide any number that you know. I am willing to bet that it is
industry standard.

?-)

In grammar school, the phone guy told me the number to get it to ring
back. 1197 and 1191, but they don't work now where I live now.
Didnt' when I checked 30 years ago. They are very useful if one is
sick in bed and wants to call his mother. who is downstairs.

 

[Leif Neland]

Geoffrey S. Mendelson forklarede:

In my case it's not very useful, as the DSL portion of my phone service
runs few hundred meters. It goes to a box somewhere near my home which
converts the DSL and analog voice to fiber optics.

That device is even smarter than you would expect, it opens its own
trouble tickets with the phone company and sends me SMSs when it does
or they are resolved.

I assume you mean the box down the road is alerting, not your
individual dsl boxes in the homes.

the box down the road is monitored from the central office,
where it is decided when an anomaly is turned into a ticket, and when
it is decided the problem is fixed, the sms'es are sent.

I don't think the box down the corner has any "free will" to generate
sms'es.

Of cause I could be wrong...

Leif

 

[Leif Neland]

Den 17/02/2013, skrev micky:

I hate when they use a 555 number in a movie. For gosh sakes, how
stupid would someone have to be to think the number they give in a
movie is really the number of someone like the character in the movie?
Calling those numbers should seem like calling random numbers. **

You would be amazed about the stupidity of people.

And if Dark Knight Rises grossed 1.1billion, average $10 per ticket,
and one in a million will call a number in a movie, that gives 1000
calls.

Would you like to get 1000 calls asking for Batman?

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

I assume you mean the box down the road is alerting, not your
individual dsl boxes in the homes.

Yes, BUT. The router I have is roughly equivalent to a 2005
computer in terms of processor capability, RAM, offline storage
(ROM), IO (one USB port, 4 ethernet ports, one VDSL modem, one 802.11n
multichannel access point).

It can run three virtual internet sessions for tunneling, two for me,
one for a separate public network.

It can provide a disk server or a print server via the USB.

I expect it can't send SMSs because it has no cellular connection, but it
may well be able to use a channel on the DSL line private to the phone
company for sending trouble tickets, etc.

the box down the road is monitored from the central office,
where it is decided when an anomaly is turned into a ticket, and when
it is decided the problem is fixed, the sms'es are sent.
Probably.

I don't think the box down the corner has any "free will" to generate
sms'es.

I don't know. My asterisk system has a cellular modem used as a phone
so I can receive and make calls and SMSs over the cellular network.
It can send me SMS's on its own.

Or to be more accurate, it COULD if I had anything programmed to triger
them. What I do have is set of PERL programs that run on a different
computer and when I run them, ssh into the asterisk system to send SMSs.

The other way, the asterisk system receives the SMS and emails it to me.

Note that some routers have USB ports programmed to connect to the cellular
network with modem sticks. I also have one of those used for emergency
backup.


I assume you could run DD-WRT on them and a stripped down Asterisk system
which could send SMS's based upon pre-programmed conditions (but not
free will, as in "I'm lonely. Please log into me".

Geoff.

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

Yes, BUT. The router I have is roughly equivalent to a 2005
computer in terms of processor capability, RAM, offline storage
(ROM), IO (one USB port, 4 ethernet ports, one VDSL modem, one 802.11n
multichannel access point).

It can run three virtual internet sessions for tunneling, two for me,
one for a separate public network.

It can provide a disk server or a print server via the USB.

I expect it can't send SMSs because it has no cellular connection, but it
may well be able to use a channel on the DSL line private to the phone
company for sending trouble tickets, etc.




I don't know. My asterisk system has a cellular modem used as a phone
so I can receive and make calls and SMSs over the cellular network.
It can send me SMS's on its own.

Or to be more accurate, it COULD if I had anything programmed to triger
them. What I do have is set of PERL programs that run on a different
computer and when I run them, ssh into the asterisk system to send SMSs.

The other way, the asterisk system receives the SMS and emails it to me.

Note that some routers have USB ports programmed to connect to the cellular
network with modem sticks. I also have one of those used for emergency
backup.

I assume you could run DD-WRT on them and a stripped down Asterisk system
which could send SMS's based upon pre-programmed conditions (but not
free will, as in "I'm lonely. Please log into me".

Geoff.

Tommy Two Tone was the group, and that was the 80's song "8675309".
People all over the country had to get their numbers changed because
of that song.

Well I finally dug a path through the snow out to the interface and
plugged my laptop directly into into it using a 6 foot cable and guess
what? A 26.4K connection! So I called the phone company to complain,
and (it was Saturday) but the rep told me that she would run it by the
technician on Tuesday and get back to me, disturbingly adding that she
"wasn't sure if they could do anything about it". Then she further
disturbingly added the usual cover their asses statement that if it is
determined that there was no problem with the telephone company's
lines, "a service charge would apply".

Well this really pissed me off, and I told her that as far as I know
if I plugged into their interface and duplicated my problem then the
trouble is NOT premises related, it is THEIR's and therefore I cannot
be charged for a service call which they might make of their own
volition or of my request. Did I imagine that or is that a fact? I
added that if they sent a tech over I could easily demonstrate at the
interface that I can get a 45K connection on one line and only a 26.4K
connection on the other. I would take that service charge if I ever
got one to the PUC if I had to

What actually are my rights here? This is a business line. Is the
phone company "required" to provide me with a line that I can get full
dial up bandwidth on? Can I legally push this issue with them? Or can
they really turn around and say "sorry Charlie but we're providing you
with voice communications and we can't do anything about your dialup
speed issue. Lenny

 

[klem kedidelhopper]

They are required to inform you that charges may apply, even if they
are unlikely, just in case you want additional work done when they
arrive.  That's because someone sued and won claiming that Ma Bell
didn't warn them that they would be charged for on premesis work.
Strictly speaking, if the telephone tech even steps into your house,
you could get a bill.  I also know of one local tech that would claim
he did inside work, when the owner never let him in the house or was
away when the tech arrived.  The solution is simple... don't let the
tech in the house if you don't want to pay.


Nice try.  I don't know how it works in your area, but in the Peoples
Republic of California, the PUC (public utilities commish) has
separated the voice monopoly and data portions of the operation.  You
are guaranteed by the monopoly to have acceptable voice service.  You
are NOT guaranteed to be able to use the line for data at anything
faster than 2400 baud.  AT&T will make an effort to get it working to
V.32 (9600 baud), but no higher.  The reason is not crappy wiring.
It's the large number of SLC, pair gain, and remote terminal systems
that have saved AT&T considerable expense by not requiring a metallic
pair back to the CO (central office).  These are good for voice, but
will generally limit your modem connection to about 26Kbit/sec because
of the reduced bandwidth.  If you want faster dialup, you'll need a
metallic pair.  The only way I've found to guess if it's an SLC, Pair
Gain, or metallic pair is the frequency response test from the USR
modem that I previously mentioned.


It depends on your state public utilities commission rules.  What
state or country are you in?  The rules might be available online.


Not in California.  Business lines actually have less "rights" than
consumer lines, even though you pay more.


Are you a lawyer?  Do you have a large bank account?  If not, I
suspect you may be tilting at windmills.


Yes, they can probably do exactly that.  In California, if you
complain to AT&T about data speeds, they will instantly suggest you
buy their new and improved U-Verse data service (ADSL2+) and generally
ignore all modem complaints.  This has been an occasional problem with
older credit card machines, that use dialup lines and internal modems.
The result is that the business owner gets burned for a new terminal
that does credit card verifications over the internet instead of
dialup.

--
Jeff Liebermann     [email protected]
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

We're in New Hampshire. I don't know what the PUC rules are here
either except that it seems like the utilities, telephone as well as
electric have always seemed to have the PUC in their pockets. I think
that I might have an idea as to how to approach this problem though.
Several months ago I complained to the phone company about a strange
random "Boing Boing" sound on my lines that would come and go during a
conversation with someone. The noise was unpredictable, would usually
last about a minute, was almost deafening at times and could only be
heard by me and never by the person on the other end of the line. They
never could verify my complaint, I'm certain that they never fixed it
and it hasn't happened for awhile now. Perhaps I should remind them of
this "continuing" problem that I've been living with that has
apparently affected my dialup speed as well. Lenny.