Danaher buys Keithley

[Joerg]

No, no, liberals are all very tolerant of dissenting views, remember?
Just ask them!

Yeah, one of the candidate's teams in CA evidenced that yesterday

http://cbs13.com/local/brown.aide.slur.2.1952902.html

Yeah, but for submitting school papers there's no need to edit the
result, right?

If you're working on a lab report or somesuch with multiple people then,
sure, you ought to agree on one word processor for passing files around.

That's what the kids should learn, team work. It's exactly what they
have to do later. This morning I sent a design review chunk on to the
east coast, another engineer will add his stuff, and then it'll be sent
on to the destination. Can't be done in PDF.

I honestly think that the amount of "learning" most kids are required to
do with Word and Excel doesn't amount to more than what you can teach
adults in, say, a pair of one day classes assuming those adults are
generally familiar with the concepts of word processors and spreadsheets
from having used any other competing package. Hence, it's hard for me
not to think that if schools are going to standardize on anything (e.g.,
the software on the computers in the libraries or whatever for the kids
who don't have their own PCs), it ought to be something like OpenOffice:
Anyone who's used OO will have no problem with Office, few people will
ever actually use the more advanced features that Office has that OO
doesn't have, and by demonstrating that OO does solve the vast majority
of an individual's needs, you can save them some money as well.

For word processing I agree, there OpenOffice has almost reached a point
where it is quite compatible. "Almost" because it is a royal resource
hog, it is not very useful on older hardware (MS-Word is). But
spreadsheet? Yeah, I do use it for that but it can't do VBA. So it could
block the more inquiring kids from using it for hobby electronics, with
the HP toolbar and things like that. As for the database, forget it, not
useful at all.

(Microsoft gives free or almost-free copies of pretty much everything to
schools -- which is fine, I have no objections to that -- but even the
"Home/Educational" version of Office is still ~$129 once you're no
longer in school... this point is even stronger in other countries that
aren't as rich as the U.S...)

Many people there use, ahem, copied from the brother in law's nephew's
friend

An engineer from Africa once said that you can't use this newfangled
stuff there anyhow. Has to be DOS software, "Africa-proof" as he called
it, because power can be lost at any time without warning. No flickering
lights, it just goes out. A UPS would cost several weeks of earnings,
not in the cards.

Also, one can buy older versions at remarkably low prices at times, from
liquidation stock. That's how I got my $10 mechanical 3D CAD.

Didn't you use the word processor and spreadsheet in Works for quite
awhile anyway before upgrading to full-blown Office?

Yes, but the migration was fairly painless because I could convert Works
documents into MS-Office format. For bookkeeping I still use Works, and
probably will for a long time. Does everything I and my CPA need. The
newer versions are a bit buggy but 6.0 and prior are ok.

 

[[email protected]]

Bookstores are where the "intellectuals" often hang out, they aren't
exactly representative for the average Joe. The fact that us guys aren't
much of a part of that is often evidenced by how much the electronics
book section has shriveled. Last time I looked it wasn't even 3ft worth
of shelf space :-(

Electronics? What's that? They have an aisle of Windows books, though.

Fiction, novels, esoteric stuff, there they had tons of books. Oh, and
they didn't even carry AoE. So I stopped going to bookstores, nothin'
there for me no more. If I need a book I preview and order online.

They also have an aisle of "alternate lifestyle" and another of "women's
studies" books. Depressing.

Here goes the tax Dollar ...

Some pay for them, some don't. AIUI, one of the districts tried it here (it
is a college town, so rather liberal). The budget went down in flames that
year.

When I was a kid we had to buy any and all of our supplies, including
books. Only poor families got help there. And we re-sold our books to
next year's class when done. That's how it ought to be.

In primary and secondary school the district owned all the books. They used
them for ten years or so. If you damaged a book beyond "normal wear and
tear", you bought it.

[...]

I think I've received three, all from my brother on birthdays. I told him
they cost me money. A call doesn't. His daughter told him the same thing, be
he doesn't listen to her either. ;-)

Seriously, some people have a tiny hidden phobia about picking up a
phone and initiating a call. But they have none of that when in front of
a keyboard or keypad. Beats me why but I've seen that a lot.

I hate calling people on the phone. I'd rather drive across town and see
them. No visual cues on the phone. With email I can answer when I want and
after I've had time to think about a response. I don't use my phone much. ;-)

Mine's not even turned on, neither night nor day. It's only on when I am
on a business trip.

Mine is turned on but I only carry it when I'm out of the house. It's biggest
use is to find SWMBO in the mall. ;-)

 

[[email protected]]

If I can assume you're well-paid over there you probably won't even notice the
extra few bucks missing from your wallet.

At 2X, I notice. I'd rather buy a couple of stationary woodworking tools than
a damned computer.

While Macs aren't quite as good of a value for the money as PCs are, I do
think the oft-heard point that, "with Macs you get a lot more software
built-in than with Windows" has some credibility as well -- for a lot of
people (certainly not everyone), there is value in it.

Hmm, I guess I bought Agent-5. I can't remember any other software I've
purchased (other than Turbo Tax).

Agreed, at least long-term. I mean, most companies can and should do a
certain amount of R&D that isn't necessarily intended to add to the bottom
line

I don't have too much of a problem with that. There should be some of that at
all levels, IMO. When trying to squeeze every dime of productivity out of a
company, it gets tough.

-- but clearly you need to be careful to insure that those indulgences
don't start to eat away at the part of the company that's bringing home the
bacon too. (Wasn't this part of the problem at IBM? Basic R&D was eating up
way too much of the income?)

Not really, their problems were much worse than that. There were *many*
complete failures that would have sunk any other company and management was as
dumb as a stump. As maligned as Gerstner was, he saved the company after
Akers did his best to kill it.

As you're probably aware, Google pretty much devotes one day a week to having
their programmers just experimenting around with whatever they're interested
in, with the idea that a small amount of it will turn into an income stream.
I once had a co-worker who had worked at an (electronic design) place where he
said their Friday afternoons were treated that way -- work on a new ham radio
project or something, learn some new skills, etc.

I had jobs where that's all I did - five days. That's when I got my largest
raises and promotions, too. ;-) Those days are *long* gone.

 

[Rich Grise]

No, no, liberals are all very tolerant of dissenting views, remember?
Just ask them!


Yeah, but for submitting school papers there's no need to edit the result,
right?

If you're working on a lab report or somesuch with multiple people then,
sure, you ought to agree on one word processor for passing files around.

Or one format. Any decent word processor can do .RTF (Rich Text Format)
which has almost as many bells and whistles as word or open office, but
even WordPad can work with it.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

(Most publishers will sell you your college textbooks as well, but almost
always they're filled with DRM so there's a very good chance that sooner
or later they're be "lost forever.")

DRM?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[[email protected]]

DRM?

http://www.search.com/reference/Digital_rights_management

 

[[email protected]]

They shouldn't have booked a hotel that ran Macs. ;-)

Before Macs. ;-)

It was the Grand Hyatt in Grand Central Station, opening week. The floors
above 15, IIRC, weren't finished. It's rather surprising to see nothing but
girders when the elevator doors open. The elevators were seriously screwed.

 

[Rich Grise]

Intel was always good at getting ahead of themselves. ;-)

Of course. We all remember the 8086, (80186 was an embedded version with
on-chip peripherals) 80286, 80386, 80486, 80585.999999993224492

and so on. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[[email protected]]

Intel was always good at getting ahead of themselves. ;-)

The *only* thing Intel has ever been good at is manufacturing.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 16:53:42 -0700, "Joel Koltner"


[...]

Companies support Win only for good reason.
But that just isn't true -- the majority of web servers are running Linux
these days, as are the vast majority of home routers, NAS boxes, media
players, etc. Windows is fine for the average desktop computer, certainly,
but in terms of the number of CPUs sold, desktop computers today are a
minority -- embedded is where the real volumes are.

Different market. How many printers and scanners do you plug into your NAS
box?


Believe it or not, I currently have a HP Laser plugged into my firewall
router. No, not into a LAN port but into its good old parallel port. It
turns a connected regular printer into a network printer.

Try that with a printer made in the last ten years. ;-)

You can just plug a lot of new printers into your network. Some
wireless routers have a USB printer port. A couple of my US Robotics
do. I recently repaired a HP HP Photosmart 2575xi printer with an
ethernet port to my home network. I have installed several HP networked
printers at a friend's business, as well. Makes it very simple to send
something to sales, manufacturing or the CEO's office.

Printers with Ethernet ports. Most don't have Ethernet ports.

 

[Joerg]

Fair enough.

Although your kid would be considered a bit of a square if everyone else
on his team has to be doing the "Save in Word 97 format" jig just
because you won't pony up for Office 2012.

As a kid I always was a bit of a weirdo I guess. Like most electronics
hobbyists back then

How can you detect the real nerds when sitting for an exam at
university? Easy: Watch for people who whip out a vintage calculator,
lots of extension cord, a doorbell transformer and a hand-stitched
regulator on perf-board.

Yeah, I know, it would just be rather better if somewhere along the line
they gained an appreciation for IP rights as well -- particularly when
free offerings often are "good enough" if not as good as the payware
versions. This is particularly true given how IP generation is becoming
a larger and larger fraction of the world economy.

True. But try to do that if the family barely has $150/month to pay for
rent, food, medical and all other expenses. And 6-8 kids.

 

[Joerg]

You, sir, need to visit Powell's Technical Book Store next time you're
in Portland, Oregon.

Although I would think there'd have to be something similar in the bay
area too...

Oh yes, places like the Stanford Bookstore. Engineer's heaven

College bookstores are often worth checking out.


Oh, but it's For The Children! Nothing is too good for them!

I was half-awake this morning listening to a radio station out of Los
Angeles where a high school has now made C the minimum passing grade
(previously D). The "oppossing viewpoint" from one student they
interivewed was that, gee, instead of making them re-do an exam/homework
assignment/etc. if they didn't receive a C or higher, couldn't they
instead just provide individual tutors or at least smaller class sizes
for such students? Since clearly they need extra help?

I wasn't very persuaded. I'm thinking that in the vast majority of the
cases what they really need is to work harder. -- The teachers
should be able to identify the very few who are truly working as hard as
they can as still just not getting it.

I see it exactly the same way. We can't continuously blame "the system"
for the laziness of students. Take away their i-whatevers and TVs and
whatever other distractions they have.

No objections there, but note that publishers have been working very
hard for years to destroy the used book market -- in college textbooks
today, even in classes that haven't changed much in decades if not
centuries (e.g., calculus, economics, etc.), most publishers now issue a
new textbook every year or two where 95%+ of the change is nothing more
than a simple shuffling of problem set numbers. Most annoying...

That's one area where I believe administrations are failing. Compared to
other countries we have rather large school administrations and
sometimes I don't quite see the bang for the buck. Lots of waste.

And of course publishers are in love with the "rent an eBook" concept
that's been catching on quite rapidly at colleges -- within 10 years, I
suspect that fewer than 10% of college books will actually be printed.
(Most publishers will sell you your college textbooks as well, but
almost always they're filled with DRM so there's a very good chance that
sooner or later they're be "lost forever.")

At the university I often opted not to buy the prescribed book but
gather together my own stuff. Sometimes that was in another language but
heck, saving $40 equaled more than three crates of beer.

 

[Joerg]

Electronics? What's that? ...

It's them thar blinkenlights and dem bells geringen

They have an aisle of Windows books, though.

More Java books and Excel for Dummies and stuff like that.

They also have an aisle of "alternate lifestyle" and another of "women's
studies" books. Depressing.


Some pay for them, some don't. AIUI, one of the districts tried it here (it
is a college town, so rather liberal). ...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And you moved there? Why?

... The budget went down in flames that year.

In CA the budget goes down in flames pretty much every year. And usually
several weeks or months late. This year they broke the record, >100 days
late. As division managers we'd have been fired on the spot if we had
been only a day late.

In primary and secondary school the district owned all the books. They used
them for ten years or so. If you damaged a book beyond "normal wear and
tear", you bought it.

I like buy-your-own better. It teaches accountability.

[...]

Heck, I haven't even used text messaging on my cell phone except once,
to transmit a phone number.
My wife and I probably exchange upwards of a dozen texts per months.
Amazingly, most teens today send *well over a thousand text messages per
month*. So while I don't quite get all the attraction either, from a
business point of view I'll be more than happy to work on the gadgets
that those folks are willing to pay a couple hundred bucks plus then
upwards of another hundred bucks a month for!

1000 texts is nothing. One kid recently said to be sending 5000/mo, at
the very least. Yikes! Carpal tunnel syndrome waiting to happen.
I think I've received three, all from my brother on birthdays. I told him
they cost me money. A call doesn't. His daughter told him the same thing, be
he doesn't listen to her either. ;-)

Seriously, some people have a tiny hidden phobia about picking up a
phone and initiating a call. But they have none of that when in front of
a keyboard or keypad. Beats me why but I've seen that a lot.

I hate calling people on the phone. I'd rather drive across town and see
them. No visual cues on the phone. With email I can answer when I want and
after I've had time to think about a response. I don't use my phone much. ;-)

Mine's not even turned on, neither night nor day. It's only on when I am
on a business trip.

Mine is turned on but I only carry it when I'm out of the house. It's biggest
use is to find SWMBO in the mall. ;-)

I usually make sure there is a hardware store nearby and then she calls
me on the two-way radio when she is done shopping.

 

[[email protected]]

Oh yes, places like the Stanford Bookstore. Engineer's heaven



I see it exactly the same way. We can't continuously blame "the system"
for the laziness of students. Take away their i-whatevers and TVs and
whatever other distractions they have.

However, the fundamentals are no longer taught, instead we get feel-goodism.
"The system" also no longer allows discipline so those who want to learn have
a chance. When the inmates run the asylum nothing good can happen. Meanwhile
costs have skyrocketed with far lower productivity; the opposite of the rest
of the economy.

That's one area where I believe administrations are failing. Compared to
other countries we have rather large school administrations and
sometimes I don't quite see the bang for the buck. Lots of waste.

That's only one of the long list of faults of "the system".

At the university I often opted not to buy the prescribed book but
gather together my own stuff. Sometimes that was in another language but
heck, saving $40 equaled more than three crates of beer.

Books for most courses were pretty much a requirement, if for no other reason
than examples. Books could be sold for about 50% of the cover, so it wasn't
all that bad. My brother had it far worse (Veterinary Medicine). His books
were pretty much all by the professors of the course and they used them
extensively in exams; "explain page 104, paragraph 3". They were also revised
every year so the resale value was zero. IOW, a racket.

 

[[email protected]]

It's them thar blinkenlights and dem bells geringen

Oh. I missed those books, too.

More Java books and Excel for Dummies and stuff like that.

I put those in the "Windows books" category. There are often a four or five
shelves of Linux books too.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And you moved there? Why?

<shaking head>

I live in the adjacent city, a big difference.

In CA the budget goes down in flames pretty much every year. And usually
several weeks or months late. This year they broke the record, >100 days
late. As division managers we'd have been fired on the spot if we had
been only a day late.

I meant, shot down by the voters.

I like buy-your-own better. It teaches accountability.

I don't think most would. ...and everyone else would lynch the school board.

[...]


Heck, I haven't even used text messaging on my cell phone except once,
to transmit a phone number.
My wife and I probably exchange upwards of a dozen texts per months.
Amazingly, most teens today send *well over a thousand text messages per
month*. So while I don't quite get all the attraction either, from a
business point of view I'll be more than happy to work on the gadgets
that those folks are willing to pay a couple hundred bucks plus then
upwards of another hundred bucks a month for!

1000 texts is nothing. One kid recently said to be sending 5000/mo, at
the very least. Yikes! Carpal tunnel syndrome waiting to happen.
I think I've received three, all from my brother on birthdays. I told him
they cost me money. A call doesn't. His daughter told him the same thing, be
he doesn't listen to her either. ;-)

Seriously, some people have a tiny hidden phobia about picking up a
phone and initiating a call. But they have none of that when in front of
a keyboard or keypad. Beats me why but I've seen that a lot.

I hate calling people on the phone. I'd rather drive across town and see
them. No visual cues on the phone. With email I can answer when I want and
after I've had time to think about a response. I don't use my phone much. ;-)

Check out these graphs:
http://www.digitalbuzzblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Adult-Mobile-Phone-Statistics.jpg
- - amazing, eh?

That is amazing. I guess I have become an atypical person because I've
never slept with my cell phone in the bed and my average number of text
messages per day is 0.5e-3 so far.
Mine sits on the nightstand, with my wallet and keys. I'd forget it
otherwise. I run on autopilot until I've gotten to work and finished the
first coffee (decaf, even).

Mine's not even turned on, neither night nor day. It's only on when I am
on a business trip.

Mine is turned on but I only carry it when I'm out of the house. It's biggest
use is to find SWMBO in the mall. ;-)

I usually make sure there is a hardware store nearby and then she calls
me on the two-way radio when she is done shopping.

We're going to Atlanta for a long weekend in a couple of weeks. I drop her
off in a shopping center and take off to some woodworking stores a few miles
from there. Atlanta has four really nice big-boy-toy stores where I can spend
*lots* of money. ;-) When she's done she waits in the B&N, reading books.
Her "Nook" is pretty slick. Books can be read free on it in-store.

 

[[email protected]]

:


[email protected] wrote:
On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 16:53:42 -0700, "Joel Koltner"


[...]

Companies support Win only for good reason.
But that just isn't true -- the majority of web servers are running Linux
these days, as are the vast majority of home routers, NAS boxes, media
players, etc. Windows is fine for the average desktop computer, certainly,
but in terms of the number of CPUs sold, desktop computers today are a
minority -- embedded is where the real volumes are.

Different market. How many printers and scanners do you plug into your NAS
box?


Believe it or not, I currently have a HP Laser plugged into my firewall
router. No, not into a LAN port but into its good old parallel port. It
turns a connected regular printer into a network printer.

Try that with a printer made in the last ten years. ;-)


You can just plug a lot of new printers into your network. Some
wireless routers have a USB printer port. A couple of my US Robotics
do. I recently repaired a HP HP Photosmart 2575xi printer with an
ethernet port to my home network. I have installed several HP networked
printers at a friend's business, as well. Makes it very simple to send
something to sales, manufacturing or the CEO's office.

Printers with Ethernet ports. Most don't have Ethernet ports.

It's a lot more common than it used to be. Three of the last four I
set up, did. The other was a HP 7760.

Most printers cost less than a full set of ink. They don't have Ethernet
ports.

I have something even rarer: an OKI Microline 186 nine pin dot matrix
with USB for 8.5" paper.

Intended for multi-part forms?

 

[Joerg]

Joel Koltner wrote:

[...]

At the university I often opted not to buy the prescribed book but
gather together my own stuff. Sometimes that was in another language but
heck, saving $40 equaled more than three crates of beer.

Books for most courses were pretty much a requirement, if for no other reason
than examples. Books could be sold for about 50% of the cover, so it wasn't
all that bad. My brother had it far worse (Veterinary Medicine). His books
were pretty much all by the professors of the course and they used them
extensively in exams; "explain page 104, paragraph 3". They were also revised
every year so the resale value was zero. IOW, a racket.

That is a racket. At State universities it wouldn't take much to stop
the practice if the administration had the backbone to do it. In Europe
this sort of racket happened rarely, and if it did students had a way to
retaliate. At copy shops.

 

[Joerg]

Oh. I missed those books, too.


I put those in the "Windows books" category. There are often a four or five
shelves of Linux books too.

4-5 shelves of Linux books? I've never seen that, and I usually browse
the computer section in hopes of finding good uC or DSP books..

[...]

I live in the adjacent city, a big difference.

Ok, so do I. That's forgiveable.

I meant, shot down by the voters.

Here's hoping that one of the initiatives passes that stops the practice
of calling taxes "fees", which was often used to skirt the 2/3rds voting
requirement.

I don't think most would. ...and everyone else would lynch the school board.

Yes, entitlement thinking :-(

[...]

We're going to Atlanta for a long weekend in a couple of weeks. I drop her
off in a shopping center and take off to some woodworking stores a few miles
from there. Atlanta has four really nice big-boy-toy stores where I can spend
*lots* of money. ;-) When she's done she waits in the B&N, reading books.
Her "Nook" is pretty slick. Books can be read free on it in-store.

Around here, that's true for regular books, too. Some people sit in
there all day long and read, and nobody stops them.

 

[[email protected]]

Joel Koltner wrote:

[...]

And of course publishers are in love with the "rent an eBook" concept
that's been catching on quite rapidly at colleges -- within 10 years, I
suspect that fewer than 10% of college books will actually be printed.
(Most publishers will sell you your college textbooks as well, but
almost always they're filled with DRM so there's a very good chance that
sooner or later they're be "lost forever.")

At the university I often opted not to buy the prescribed book but
gather together my own stuff. Sometimes that was in another language but
heck, saving $40 equaled more than three crates of beer.

Books for most courses were pretty much a requirement, if for no other reason
than examples. Books could be sold for about 50% of the cover, so it wasn't
all that bad. My brother had it far worse (Veterinary Medicine). His books
were pretty much all by the professors of the course and they used them
extensively in exams; "explain page 104, paragraph 3". They were also revised
every year so the resale value was zero. IOW, a racket.

That is a racket. At State universities it wouldn't take much to stop
the practice if the administration had the backbone to do it. In Europe
this sort of racket happened rarely, and if it did students had a way to
retaliate. At copy shops.

Professors run the place. In a small college (though within a large
university), staff and management is quite incestuous. I doubt this sort of
thing could happen in engineering. Tough to copy, discretely, when the book
is needed for exams.

 

[[email protected]]

4-5 shelves of Linux books? I've never seen that, and I usually browse
the computer section in hopes of finding good uC or DSP books..

Sure, even the small BAM here has a couple of shelves. I've never seen any uC
or DSP stuff on the shelves, though.

Here's hoping that one of the initiatives passes that stops the practice
of calling taxes "fees", which was often used to skirt the 2/3rds voting
requirement.

We don't have anything like that here, at least I don't think we do (only been
here for one voting cycle). Everything here seems to need a constitutional
amendment. You'll see dozens of them for various cities and counties on the
ballot. Weird.

Yes, entitlement thinking :-(

I'm not so concerned about such things, It's direct transfers from one
individual to another that gets me. Sure, I'd rather each pay their own way
but I don't see any way that can work.

[...]

We're going to Atlanta for a long weekend in a couple of weeks. I drop her
off in a shopping center and take off to some woodworking stores a few miles
from there. Atlanta has four really nice big-boy-toy stores where I can spend
*lots* of money. ;-) When she's done she waits in the B&N, reading books.
Her "Nook" is pretty slick. Books can be read free on it in-store.

Around here, that's true for regular books, too. Some people sit in
there all day long and read, and nobody stops them.

B&N has that as a policy, AFAICT. BAM too (the only book store, other than
the university stores), but it's nowhere near the same class as B&N.