Cost of grid energy

[[email protected]]

In discussions about the difficulty of making alternative energy
"pay", people frequently neglect to consider the cost of connecting
new homes to the grid. Those hookups are often counted as being free,
despite the fact that they tend to be heavily subsidized by current
ratepayers. The true cost ranges from very little in built-up areas,
to quite a lot in rural areas. Here's a recent article which points
out some of the ramifications of removing subsidies and letting growth
pay for itself.
http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=38767&TM=48467.33

Wayne

 

[Ecnerwal]

In discussions about the difficulty of making alternative energy
"pay", people frequently neglect to consider the cost of connecting
new homes to the grid. Those hookups are often counted as being free,
despite the fact that they tend to be heavily subsidized by current
ratepayers. The true cost ranges from very little in built-up areas,
to quite a lot in rural areas. Here's a recent article which points
out some of the ramifications of removing subsidies and letting growth
pay for itself.

Well, at the moment, grid energy is costing me very roughly $181/kwh.
Six months ago it was $2625/kwh. The more I use, the less it will cost,
until it flattens out near the rate charged + the service fee to be
connected. For what I needed, and the weather where I am, this was
considerably cheaper than a PV system that would do what I needed, and
may well still be ahead considering lack of batteries to replace, and
similar costs of alternative energy that are often discounted, such as
the spare inverter and a series of gasoline generators that my off-grid
(20+ years now) sibling has needed to buy. That provided a useful
reality check on things I didn't want to happen to me, when I was
contemplating off-grid myself. A PV system that would not do what I
needed would have been a considerable waste of a hunk of property, etc...

I spent 6 years puttering and saving money, convinced I needed to go
offgrid, but once I had a price put together on an offgrid, up-to-code
(and wasn't that a delightful moving target) system that would do what I
needed, and the money to do so, connecting to the grid was cheaper, even
with copper going insane.

"Subsidy" here is a credit of approximately the power company's cost for
100 feet of crappy aluminum wire suitable for 100 amp overhead service.
Everything else is bought by customer. Heck, it costs $345 just to see
what it will cost.

So, just remember to report your total input costs divided by the number
of KWH you use. If your $6000 system has produced 600 KWH, you're at
$10/kwh...

 

[vaughn]

In discussions about the difficulty of making alternative energy
"pay", people frequently neglect to consider the cost of connecting
new homes to the grid. Those hookups are often counted as being free,
despite the fact that they tend to be heavily subsidized by current
ratepayers.

Yes, that is true, but then you become a ratepayer and fully share in the costs
of the system for decades to come. That is just the way it works. I love RE,
and dabble in it myself, but the grid is the biggest bargain you will ever get
in your life.

Vaughn

 

[[email protected]]

I spent 6 years puttering and saving money, convinced I needed to go
offgrid, but once I had a price put together on an offgrid, up-to-code
(and wasn't that a delightful moving target) system that would do what I
needed, and the money to do so, connecting to the grid was cheaper, even
with copper going insane.

That kind of thing happens when there isn't a suitable off-grid
parcel. If you're willing to go alternative, then the best idea is to
find a parcel where the savings on the land is more than the cost of
the power setup. It doesn't work if the grid-connected land is say,
only $20k, because the off-grid alternative is unlikely to be
sufficiently cheaper to allow paying for a house-sized power setup.
But if you're comparing say, a $200k grid parcel to a $100k off-grid
parcel, then the potential is obvious. In my own case, our budget
could be stretched enough to fit the big picture of a large off-grid
parcel and everything required to make it work. The cost of the same
sized parcel near the grid would have been miles out of our league.

"Subsidy" here is a credit of approximately the power company's cost for
100 feet of crappy aluminum wire suitable for 100 amp overhead service.
Everything else is bought by customer. Heck, it costs $345 just to see
what it will cost.

The only time there should be *any* subsidy is if there's a tiny
number of line extensions compared to existing ratepayer base. Even
then, the purpose of the subsidy will tend to be more of a
rationalization than good policy. Power companies have enough
problems without being turned into de facto loan companies. The
relatively large subsidies that used to exist in our area were just
another factor in encouraging people to think in terms of someone else
saving them from their failure to think ahead. A typical example - I
was talking to someone who'd purchased truly crummy property on a
flood plain miles (and decades) from the grid. He wanted to know if
the nearby wash ever flooded, and when the power lines were coming.

So, just remember to report your total input costs divided by the number
of KWH you use. If your $6000 system has produced 600 KWH, you're at
$10/kwh...

No, that's narrow thinking that should be discouraged. Every off-grid
parcel costs *something* less than a comparable off-grid alternative.
So that needs to be figured in, as well as the costs of living
off-grid, which generally means rural. For example, the off-grid guy
might need his own snow plow, and grid guy will probably pay higher
taxes. Always think big-picture.

Wayne

 

[[email protected]]

Yes, that is true, but then you become a ratepayer and fully share in the costs
of the system for decades to come. That is just the way it works. I love RE,
and dabble in it myself, but the grid is the biggest bargain you will ever get
in your life.

.... usually, and not that that's necessarily a good thing. But for me,
being able to ditch the grid was a bigger bargain. Same with lots of
other folks in my area. Another plus, we're not contributing as much
to the pollution costs of grid energy, which is another thing that
most folks don't bother to count. I see the same attitude at work in
the recent trend to walk away from upside-down home loans. People have
been trained to think only of their own bottom line, so now a huge
number have no qualms about screwing their loan company over for $100k
as someone I know is doing. Sure, they're avoiding a big personal hit,
but somebody has to pay. It's all part of a larger problem - wanting
more than we can afford, but getting it anyway.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Wayne

 

[vaughn]

... usually, and not that that's necessarily a good thing.

In that it discourages folks from being energy frugal, I must agree.

But for me,
being able to ditch the grid was a bigger bargain.

Getting rid of entrenched utilites is not always easy. I would like ti ditch
my water utility in favor of the well I already have. It's not allowed!

Another plus, we're not contributing as much
to the pollution costs of grid energy,

Not all off-grid power is clean. It can be far cheaper to buy a crappy
high-emissions generator to charge your batteries than to install PV. Also not
all agree that PV is energy efficient in the long term (but let's not get in to
that issue right now please)

I see the same attitude at work in
the recent trend to walk away from upside-down home loans. People have
been trained to think only of their own bottom line, so now a huge
number have no qualms about screwing their loan company over for $100k

Some of those folks are in for a nasty surprise in coming years. Depending
on their individual circumstances and on their individual bodies of state law,
some will have third-party bill collectors hounding them for decades to come.
You can walk away from your house, but your debt usually remains!

Vaughn

 

[[email protected]]

In that it discourages folks from being energy frugal, I must agree.


Getting rid of entrenched utilites is not always easy. I would like ti ditch
my water utility in favor of the well I already have. It's not allowed!

Yeah, I've heard that a few times. Either not allowed to drill a well,
or stuck with city fees for water even if someone has their own
supply. It's not truly fair, but I can see the logic. These days, if
you let folks opt out of city water in favor of their own well or
hauling, it's only a matter of time before some of them demand special
consideration on account of their well breaking down or whatever.
That's happened quite a bit in our area - small water companies that
couldn't or didn't plan ahead, and then whining their way into a
bailout. Which in turn provides an opportunity for contractors to jack
up their rates as they tend to do whenever the government is paying.

Not all off-grid power is clean. It can be far cheaper to buy a crappy
high-emissions generator to charge your batteries than to install PV.

The market tends to correct for that problem. I see people start with
a generator, but they soon find out that generator replacement and
fuel costs are higher than PV costs.

Some of those folks are in for a nasty surprise in coming years. Depending
on their individual circumstances and on their individual bodies of state law,
some will have third-party bill collectors hounding them for decades to come.
You can walk away from your house, but your debt usually remains!

Yup, but they're going to demand the ability to borrow again, and
they'll get it eventually.

Wayne

 

[Bruce in alaska]

In that it discourages folks from being energy frugal, I must agree.


Getting rid of entrenched utilites is not always easy. I would like ti
ditch
my water utility in favor of the well I already have. It's not allowed!

Do you own the Water Rights to the well? In some States you may own the
Land, but not the water under it.

 

[vaughn]

Do you own the Water Rights to the well? In some States you may own the
Land, but not the water under it.

Not an issue here. Mine happens to be a legal, permitted well. Household wells
are common in this area for yard watering. I have never had the water tested,
but it draws from the same aquifer the utility is using.

We have an annual fight with our water utility, which has been filing
unconciousable rate increases every year since they changed ownership about 5
years ago. We always fight them, and their full request is always shot down by
the state, but they always win SOMETHING. My water bill has increased from an
average of $8.00 to an average of $40.00/month even though I have installed
water saving fixtures and the sprinkler well. There is no end to the rate
increases in sight!

Vaughn

 

[[email protected]]

I think it's more often an issue of private wells drawing on aquifers
allocated to the public, and too many wells near too many septic tanks
etc. Plus, now that we've gotten to the point where so few are willing
to take personal responsibility, and instead expect the state to pay
for every problem, it's more cost-effective for the state to adopt a
one size fits all strategy.

Not an issue here. Mine happens to be a legal, permitted well. Household wells
are common in this area for yard watering. I have never had the water tested,
but it draws from the same aquifer the utility is using.

We have an annual fight with our water utility, which has been filing
unconciousable rate increases every year since they changed ownership about 5
years ago. We always fight them, and their full request is always shot down by
the state, but they always win SOMETHING. My water bill has increased from an
average of $8.00 to an average of $40.00/month even though I have installed
water saving fixtures and the sprinkler well. There is no end to the rate
increases in sight!

Nor will there ever be. Our demand to be protected from every
boogeyman has led to some costly regulation. For example, around here
commercial wells aren't allowed to use any galvanized components.
Shallower and lower flow wells can get away with sc.120 PVC. On deeper
wells, some outfits can afford stainless, while others must go back to
frequent replacement of black pipe. Ironically, it seems that few
consumers are willing to drink tap water anyway unless somebody has
bottled it for them and put a picture of a glacier on the label.

Wayne

 

[David Lesher]

Here's a recent article which points out some of the
ramifications of removing subsidies and letting growth pay for
itself.

http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=38767&TM=48467.33

Hello, shouldn't the local pols be worried about *filling* the existing
houses, not building more?

The Finest Government Money Can Buy, I guess.

 

[[email protected]]

Here in Downeast Maine, the cost for grid extension for me would have
been $5.25/ft for lines on poles and $6/ft for underground lines after
*I* prepared the trench and conduit. And if the underground portion
was over a certain distance, and additional $2400-$2800 for
transformers at each end.

Being 7000' from the powerline, with 2,000' of that to be underground,
it was very obvious that an off-grid solution would be less expensive
from day 1.

Just out of curiosity, did you consider any otherwise similar
properties that were easier to connect to the grid? If so, could you
put a number on the difference in price?

Wayne