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conventional power supply

F

Fred Bloggs

Ban said:
The book I'm referring to is giving this model:

leakage inductance leakage inductance ___ ___
___ ___ o-|___|--UUU--+----. .--UUU--|___|-o | '-. ,--' C|
)|( C| )|( C| .-' '----------------o | |
o-------------+----'

magnetizing inductance

And the actually non-linear core losses can be approximated with a
resistor in parallel with the magnetizing inductance.

You're just discovering this now?- after shooting your ignorant mouth
off and posing as the big power supply expert- laughing at other people
and ridiculing their "state of knowledge?"
He must like your book very much, because I didn't find much about
transformers and leakage inductance there.

....because it's so readily available everywhere else....

Then you're so damned dumb you started this thread attempting to capture
the whole of the design philosophy after a few elementary and incomplete
SPICE model runs....too much- what gall.
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Winfield Hill said:
Fred Bartoli wrote...

And the DCR? Was the N=3.34 an actual measurement?

You're right, I forgot this. Plus I was dumb enough to mix some figures with
another xformer, reverse the turn ratio and count it across 2 secondaries.
I guess it's time for some vacation.

So it is 630VA, 230V 2x(2x34V)
Lp=12.7H
N=1:0.1474
Lf1a=Lf1b=16uH
Lf2a=24uH, Lf2b=22uH
Rp = 2.13R
Rs = 0.22R for all the secondaries.

The transformer ratio was measured (I didn't design it).

A funny story is that this is an old transformer I had custom made about 20
years ago (many more auxiliary voltages).
In order to be sure to have the right voltages under load I told the
manufacturer the bypass caps values, the current loads, and let they do
their job... Doing so, I was sure enough (well hoping) the transformer would
be spot on on the first attempt.

....so they "clerverly" took a previous same size transformer they had done,
wired it with the caps, load resistors... and a variac transformer to "fine
adjust" and then "correct" the turn ratios.
They then sent me the transformer, probably without testing it in the setup.

The requirements was for 35V DC under load, and the transformer was of
course "a bit" off specs. I was astonished when they told me how they worked
out the turn ratio.

Needless to say that another firm did it right the first time and got the
market.
 
B

Ban

Winfield said:
A complete and accurate analysis will have to include not only
the transformer's leakage inductance but the diode's reverse-
recovery time model. You have some more learning ahead of you.

Back to your snubber, this is to damp the inductive pulse and
high-frequency ringing that occurs from the rectifier diode's
fast snap-off after the reverse-recovery time is finished. In
this case it's the transformer's leakage inductance that was
charged during the reverse-recovery time and forms a resonant
circuit with the winding and diode capacitances. You add more
capacitance in parallel to lower the ringing frequency and take
control of the resonant energy, plus a series resistor to lower
the Q and damp the ringing to a single cycle. (We've written
up a nice story about this scene, complete with scope photos
and spice models for the 3rd edition of AoE.)

Anyway, instead of a very sharp high-voltage spike (too short
to see with a scope unless you trigger properly) followed by
RF ringing, you get a single small long smeared-out innocuous
pulse. If left unattended to, the magnetic radiation from the
inductive spikes can be picked up and create an audible buzzing
signal (harmonics of 120Hz) in low-level phono or mic inputs.

Well, I put my measured values in:
for my small 50VA toroid with 17% loss 220/18V I got from primary to
secondary 25uH leakage inductance and 240pF interwinding capacity with both
secondaries in parallel. From one secondary to the other it was 6uH and
3500pF, seem to be wound bifilar. I have not corrected the reading for the
DC-resistance(0.7R each secondary, 36R primary), so the actual values should
be smaller.

IMHO a high leakage induction is bad. The pulse is not spread out, but the
peak is delayed and the pulse has a much longer risetime, whereas the
falltime gets shortened. This *creates* the problem with the spike. The peak
current and rms value stay almost identical.
Since the charge stored in the diodes is carrier_lifetime * current it will
be better to take a faster diode. There is *no spike at all*, when the
carriers recombine before the voltage gets reversed.
One big mistake would be to put a capacitor across the secondary, or
capacities to gnd from there. now the current which is stored in the leakage
induction will oscillate nicely through this cap instead of the diffusion
capacity of 2*2 diodes in series. People think it is good to put 10nF across
the diodes, but this is almost as bad. Sure the frequency gets lower, but
the damping not, unless you also use a resistor in series with C.
Anyway, to spread out the pulse you will need a resistor in series. To
dampen the ringing, a resistor across the secondary which is big enough not
to dissipate too much will serve better against the "high voltage spike".
Also the current of this ringing is really low, so I doubt it will have too
much effect. The higher the frequency, the more damping because of skin
effect etc.
 
B

Ban

Fred said:
Then you're so damned dumb you started this thread attempting to
capture the whole of the design philosophy after a few elementary and
incomplete SPICE model runs....too much- what gall.

Well, I measured the loss and it was exactly ohmic, so you could actually
use my simulations.
And I was only joking to provoke you, because you can not give any
constructive critics but just negativity. I also called for commentaries and
was sharing *my insights* not the absolute truth.
And I'm revising and learning as you can see.
 
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