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CMOS DRAM chips and static

O

orange

Is it safe to keep the CMOS chips (RAM) in plastic box?
if not, can it be modified to be safe somehow, I just don't have any
alternative.. :(
 
G

gareth magennis

orange said:
Is it safe to keep the CMOS chips (RAM) in plastic box?
if not, can it be modified to be safe somehow, I just don't have any
alternative.. :(


Wrap some aluminium foil around a small piece of expanded polystyrene, then
you can just push the chips into the sandwich and keep the lot in a plastic
box. The foil shorts all the pins together so there can be no potential
difference between any.


Gareth.
 
E

Eeyore

gareth said:
Wrap some aluminium foil around a small piece of expanded polystyrene, then
you can just push the chips into the sandwich and keep the lot in a plastic
box. The foil shorts all the pins together so there can be no potential
difference between any.

Aluminium foil is a BAD idea. In the event that there is any appreciable charge
on a given pin, pushing it into aluminium foil will discharge it *quickly* and
the resulting current may kill it.

Always use high resistance material for storing ICs like the anyi-static black
foam material. This allows any charge to 'leak' away slowly and safely.

Graham
 
B

bz

Aluminium foil is a BAD idea. In the event that there is any appreciable
charge on a given pin, pushing it into aluminium foil will discharge it
*quickly* and the resulting current may kill it.


It is NOT the current that kills CMOS, it is high VOLTAGE that punches
holes in the insulating layers inside the chip. [I am not aware of ANY chip
families where tiny CURRENTS would be a hazard].

As the conductors are quite small, it only requires a surplus/deficit of a
"few" electrons to build up a high voltage.

When the chip is in a circuit, there will be much higher currents charging
and discharging the

You want to avoid anything that may have accumulated a large surplus or
deficit of electrons.

As long as the aluminum foil is not at a high static voltage, the chances
of damage are quite small.

Hold the chip in one hand, the aluminum foil in the other and run your
finger along the leads before you bring the chip into contact with the
aluminum foil, if you want to 'slowly discharge' any charge that might have
built up.
(this assumes clean hands with normal skin resistance)
If you want to be ULTRA safe, make sure you touch the Vcc and Gnd pins
FIRST.


Always use high resistance material for storing ICs like the anyi-static
black foam material. This allows any charge to 'leak' away slowly and
safely.






--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
 
S

Sam Goldwasser

Eeyore said:
Aluminium foil is a BAD idea. In the event that there is any appreciable charge
on a given pin, pushing it into aluminium foil will discharge it *quickly* and

And how would this occur?
the resulting current may kill it.

Always use high resistance material for storing ICs like the anyi-static black
foam material. This allows any charge to 'leak' away slowly and safely.

Aluminum foil is fine. The black stuff has a relatively low resistance
anyhow. Check it with an ohmmeter.

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E

Eeyore

Gareth said:
Are there any Data to show the actual risk involved using this method?

See manufacturers' advice.

I accept that best practice is always best, but what do we know about the
reality of the situation?
Don't forget we are discussing the storage of small numbers of IC's in
somebodys workshop.

A small sheet of conductive foam isn't expensive and I keep all the small
pieces that ICs come shipped in. These often fit small storage drawers very
nicely.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

bz said:
Eeyore said:
Aluminium foil is a BAD idea. In the event that there is any appreciable
charge on a given pin, pushing it into aluminium foil will discharge it
*quickly* and the resulting current may kill it.

It is NOT the current that kills CMOS, it is high VOLTAGE that punches
holes in the insulating layers inside the chip. [I am not aware of ANY chip
families where tiny CURRENTS would be a hazard].

These are two different things. Those 'tiny' currents can be quite large when
discharging a significant charge. Enought to damage the chip's internals
through overcurrent.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Sam said:
And how would this occur?

Because the ali foil provides essentially a short circuit path.

Aluminum foil is fine. The black stuff has a relatively low resistance
anyhow. Check it with an ohmmeter.

I have many times. You're plain wrong or using the wrong grade foam.

Graham
 
B

bz

Eeyore said:
Aluminium foil is a BAD idea. In the event that there is any
appreciable charge on a given pin, pushing it into aluminium foil
will discharge it *quickly* and the resulting current may kill it.

It is NOT the current that kills CMOS, it is high VOLTAGE that punches
holes in the insulating layers inside the chip. [I am not aware of ANY
chip families where tiny CURRENTS would be a hazard].

These are two different things.
Yes.

Those 'tiny' currents can be quite large
when discharging a significant charge.

Yes, but you can not 'have a significant charge' on a chip without having
a high voltage differential between the chip and the conductor! There are
not enough charge carriers to produce a high current from the small
internal capacitances of the cmos chip itself. If you have enough of a
differential between leads on the chip to cause a high current, then you
have already lost the chip due to the high voltage.
Enought to damage the chip's
internals through overcurrent.

NO! The danger to cmos from static electricity is not due to over-current,
it is due to high voltage differential between high impedance gates and
the base substrate of the cmos chip.

The voltage punches a hole in the insulating oxide layer.

TTL chips and the gated devices in ICs can be damaged by excess current
but that current is from a current source, not the kind of small static
charge that is developed when you carelessly handle a cmos chip.

The use of aluminum foil for storage of static sensitive components is
safe because there can not be an 'appreciable charge' on a given pin
without the device already having been destroyed by the voltage!

Do some calculations and see what kinds of voltage one would need to
produce enough coulombs of charge carriers to produce damage from
excessive current on any IC. Remember, you have only the volume of the
metal conductors involved to hold those charges.

Envision a capacitor, fully charged (the floating gate). Charge it to the
MAXIMUM voltage that it can stand. Now throw a DEAD SHORT across the leads
that feed that capacitor and look at the current flow as the cap
discharges.

Compare that current with the normal charge/discharge currents that flow
as pulses drive the gate when the IC is mounted and being used normally.
Look at the rise and fall times. Look at the conductor materials used on
the chip and connecting the chip to the lead. Find the weakest point along
the current path and compute the maximum peak current that can flow in
that conductor and for how long that current can flow before it causes
damage. [remember, current causes damage by heat.]

Now, check to see if the max permissible voltage could possibly produce
that current.

I think you will find that even chips that have built in weak conductors
['fuses' designed to be burned open by current flow] could not possibly be
damaged by the small charge allowable between any two pins of a CMOS
device.

Now, there MIGHT be some conditions where metal foil would NOT be a good
idea, like those where electrolysis could develop, but we are not
discussing those.

Another condition would be where there are high intensity ELECTRIC fields
nearby, STRONG Pulsed magnetic fields or RF fields nearby. [such as EMP]
But then the chip would be destroyed even if it were soldered into a
circuit.

I have worked with components that are VERY static sensitive (point
contact detector diodes used in radars) that were ALSO easy to damage with
excessive current.

We sometimes had RF fields around that could cause excessive current flow.
We kept the diodes wrapped in foil until we were installing them.

There are times when EM shielded rooms, anti-static mats and wrist straps
are not available. When they are not available, I work on a sheet of
aluminum foil and make sure I touch the foil and the component before the
component touches the foil.

--
bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
 
G

gareth magennis

Eeyore said:
See manufacturers' advice.



A small sheet of conductive foam isn't expensive and I keep all the small
pieces that ICs come shipped in. These often fit small storage drawers
very
nicely.

Graham

I do the same as I get lots of it with chips that don't even need it. The
OP I presume doesn't have any. Anyway best practice is obviously to use the
right stuff, in the meantime the foil should provide a degree of protection
better than nothing. I don't think I will be recommending foil in the
future though!


Gareth.
 
B

bz

Yes. It seems strange that all chips seem to be packaged in the same
way.

I must admit to never having taken any precautions when fitting any chip
- but then I don't wear any artificial fabric clothes.

Perhaps you live in an area where the relative humidity is rather high.
In which case, static electricity is seldom a problem.

If you lived in [for example] Wyoming, where RH is often in the low teens
or lower, THEN you would need to be careful. And more careful in the
winter [warming air dries it].






--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
 
B

bz

You can damaged an IC at levels that won't generate a spark.
Yep.

OTOH,
'low humidity' in Central Florida is still over 50%. :(

Likewise here, in Baton Rouge, LA.




--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
 
E

Eeyore

bz said:
Yes, but you can not 'have a significant charge' on a chip without having
a high voltage differential between the chip and the conductor!

You can certainly have a charge that does not exceed the breakdown potential
of the IC oxide layer yet results in probably several AMPS of instantaneous
current when shorted into close to zero ohms through an aluminium foil sheet.

Why do you NITWITS feel the need to argue about the BLEEDING OBVIOUS ?

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Dave Plowman (News) said:
I must admit to never having taken any precautions when fitting any chip -
but then I don't wear any artificial fabric clothes.

The best advice around.

Only wear cotton and cotton mixes. Ensure a decent level of humidity.

THEN treat the floor with anti-static spay.

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Gareth said:
I always know when the humidity is low because then every time I get out of
my car I get a shock when I touch the bodywork.

Many, many years ago I was working as an AV techician.

I was setting up a multi-screen projection rig in a premium Kensington, London
hotel. It was very new and had air-conditioning throughout. It also seemed to
have polyester carpets everywhere.

I was unable to get the kit to work since every time I plugged it into the
mains socket, it blew a 13A plugtop fuse (in the UK we have fuses in the mains
plugs).

In desperation, I called the office for backup. (They provided more fuses btw.
Every one of them blew.)

Simply pointing my finger at the telephone dial created a static discharge that
sent out a 'dial pulse'.

Needless to say, we informed the client that we could not proceed and
recommended a better (one with less static electricity) venue in the future.

Graham.
 
B

bz

You can certainly have a charge that does not exceed the breakdown
potential of the IC oxide layer yet results in probably several AMPS of
instantaneous current when shorted into close to zero ohms through an
aluminium foil sheet.

Why do you NITWITS feel the need to argue about the BLEEDING OBVIOUS ?

Why do you feel the need to insult someone that is trying to help you
understand something?

A half amp is .5 coul/sec. This represents about 3.121 x10^18 electrons.
A penny (1950 vintage) weighs about 3.1 gm and contains about 2.9 x 10^22
atoms.
There are clearly quite a few electrons in that penny, but NOT a huge excess
of electrons, normally.

Most chips have very small amounts of metal in them. Lets say the gate in
question holds 1 mg of metal.
(it is almost certainly MUCH less than that, but lets go with that for the
moment)
If it were copper, there would be about 9.3x10^18 atoms, so out of every
three atoms, we would need to have 1 excess electron in order to have a
charge of .5 coul.

The electric field is proportional to the charge and inversely proportional
to the square of the distance between the charge centers(the dielectric
thickness in this case)

A volt is a joule per coulomb.

For a parallel plate capacitor, V = q/C. so, what is the value of the
capacitor we have charged inside that chip?

Lets say it is 1 pf. To charge the cap with .5 coul of electrons what voltage
do we need?
My calculations show 5x10^11 volts. That seems a bit over any gate rating I
can imagine for any normal chips.

Even if the gate were 10 uF, a charge of half a coulomb would require 50 kV.

As I said before, current from charge on the chip is NOT a significant
factor.
VOLTAGE from charges on the chip ARE the hazard.

Do your own calculations and stop calling people names.



--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
 
P

Paul

On Fri, 23 May 2008 01:05:05 +0100, Eeyore

....snip.....
Because the ali foil provides essentially a short circuit path.

The safer practice nowadays is to use high resistance materials,
and NOT aluminum foil, or metal film covered plastics, or that black
conductive foam. The low resistance materials allow fast and high
charge/discharge currents that can vapourize small tracks or
microcircuitry. You should notice that a lot of packaging now uses
those pink bags, and if you check with an ohmmeter, they appear to
have an extremely high resistance. That allows voltages to dissipate
with low (less damaging) current.
The low resistance stuff is used to protect against external
electric fields. If you have both situations, then put the component
in a disipative bag (pink, high resistance), and then put that inside
a conductive pouch, say aluminum foil.
I'm told that you can effectively use the stuff that women commonly
use to control static on their dress clothes. It's a spray can, I
believe the active ingredient is sodium stearate (tallow?). It doesn't
last forever, but for weeks or months it's not bad. There are
commercial products that do a much better job, but you probably won't
find them at your supermarket. It provides a dissipative ilm, and will
not shield against electric fields.
Some of the little plastic boxes are quite evil when it comes to
voltage build up. You can flex one of those boxes, and easily build up
a charge of 200v-2Kv on the inside surface. That charge can induce a
a charge (and voltage) on a pin of a chip inside the box. I hade an
old analog voltmeter with a pastic face, I rubbed the face, and the
meter shifted about 10% because of the induced charge. One year later,
it was still off by 5%. By opening it up and breathing on the inside
plastic, I was able to eliminate the problem. I was really surprised
at how long that charge was held!
The statistics of ESD (Electro static discharge) suggest that the
probability is quite high that no apparent damage will show up right
away, but the component will be stressed, and will not live out its
normal design lifetime. ESD problems are one of the biggest cause of
poor reliability of microcircuitry.
Check this site: http://www.esda.org

-Paul
 
B

bz

The safer practice nowadays is to use high resistance materials,
and NOT aluminum foil, or metal film covered plastics, or that black
conductive foam. The low resistance materials allow fast and high
charge/discharge currents that can vapourize small tracks or
microcircuitry.

Please show me where this is documented and what family of semi conductors
to which it applies.

My calculations show that the probability of
producing excessive current flow inside a CMOS chip by use of aluminum
foil,
without already having exceeded the voltage limits of the chip, is very
small.




--
bz 73 de N5BZ k

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

[email protected] remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap
 
E

Eeyore

bz said:
Please show me where this is documented and what family of semi conductors
to which it applies.

It was well documented about 20-30 years ago. You're expected to KNOW this
stuff now.

My calculations show that the probability of
producing excessive current flow inside a CMOS chip by use of aluminum
foil, without already having exceeded the voltage limits of the chip, is
very
small.

And what calculations are those ?
Note : it has NOTHING to do with voltage.

Graham
 
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