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Changes to Canadian monitoring contract law

T

tourman

Is anyone aware of any Canadian provinces where long term monitoring
contracts can be cancelled immediately by the client provided the
contract is for service only, and does not cover paying down any
equipment costs in the rate ?

I was talking to someone from Alberta yesterday who said this exists
in at least one other province, and is being considered for
introduction there in Alberta. As I understood it, this would prevent
alarmco's from holding clients to a long term contract if they wished
to cancel early provided the contract did not involve any equipment
equity paydown.
So I guess this would mean that those who ordered a "free system"
would be held to the contract and forced to pay out the rest of the
term, since there is equipment paydown involved. But someone else who
did a takeover, where the client owned the system outright, the client
wouldn't be forced to comply with the terms of a three year contract
for example, and could cancel immediately (since this involved only
service in a broad term). Presumably, after the free system was paid
for, it might go monthly since there would be no reason to hit the
client with another long term contract (or at least a knowledgeable
client who knew the law could refuse to pay up if he decided to leave
that alarmco for any reason, contract or no contract)

Frank, do you know of any such contract limitations existing currently
in Canada? It sounds like some provincial government is trying to even
things up a bit....

RHC
 
R

Robert L Bass

Is anyone aware of any Canadian provinces where long term
monitoring
contracts can be cancelled immediately by the client provided the
contract is for service only, and does not cover paying down any
equipment costs in the rate ?

That's an excellent consumer protection law. We need that in the USA
to protect homeowners from unscrupulous alarm companies. Remember
the guy who said he called an alarm company to repair his local,
unmonitored alarm? They came out and replaced the battery or some
such thing, then had him sign the "repair bill." On the front it
said that by signing he was agreeing to the terms and conditions on
the back. On the reverse side, in airline ticket size type was a
3-year monitoring agreement. What a bunch of jerks.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
 
T

tourman

True, in that specific situation you mention, such a law would have
prevented that consumer from being defrauded. However, I think the
intent of this consumer protection legislation is more to even things
up in the market place for the consumer right across the board. It
pays to remember that the vast majority of alarm companies are honest
and don't engage in fraudulent activities such as you illustrate.
However, even the vast majority of good companies engage in needlessly
signing clients into long term contracts for all the equity building
reasons we all know and love. To suggest that this is not a fair thing
to do will always generate volumes of criticism as we have seen in the
past, and this is understandable given that most companies look no
further than their bottom line. But the government appearing to step
in like this is simply saying to the market place that there IS a
legitimate place for contracts when you are paying down equipment
costs, but that legitimacy stops when you are holding the consumer to
a long term contract for nothing more than specific monitoring
services, with a guarantee of long term revenues for you, but with
little or nothing of gain in it for the consumer.

One of the other benefits of such legislation is that it will force
marginal companies to clean up their act since consumers can cancel
anytime they want. Plus, I have no doubt it will drive prices downward
quickly which is not good for the industry. However, the days of
ridiculous $30 plus monitoring rates that don't involve equipment
"write downs" will rapidly disappear......

It will be interesting to see if this catches on. For all I know so
far, it is just talk since no one has come back and said that it
actually exists here in Canada in any specific province.

RHC
 
R

Robert L Bass

True, in that specific situation you mention, such a law
would have prevented that consumer from being
defrauded. However, I think the intent of this consumer
protection legislation is more to even things up in the
market place for the consumer right across the board...

Good point, Bob. They're trying to give consumers an
even break and that is a good thing. It is unfortunate
that too many alarm companies use contracts so one-
sided and patently unfair that a law is needed to protect
the public from alarm company abuse.

Don't get me wrong on this. I believe that many alarm
companies are run by decent, honest people who try
to make a living while givving their customers good
service and proper protection. The problem is that
there are way too many alarm dealers who cheat their
customers, mislead them about their contracts, offer
insufficient protection and charge ever-increasing fees.
Such companies are the reason we need laws like that
in the USA, too.
It pays to remember that the vast majority of alarm
companies are honest and don't engage in fraudulent
activities such as you illustrate.

I like to believe that's true, Bob. Hopefully, the Jiminexes
of the industry are in the minority. One tends to become
somewhat jaded after reading the constant stream of
alarm company horror stories posted here. You have
to remember that satisfied customers rarely say anytrhing.
Perhaps there's hope for the trade after alkl, eh?
However, even the vast majority of good companies
engage in needlessly signing clients into long term
contracts for all the equity building reasons we all
know and love. To suggest that this is not a fair thing
to do will always generate volumes of criticism as we
have seen in the past, and this is understandable
given that most companies look no further than their
bottom line...

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Unless alarm company
owners see customers as *people* who need real
*security* instead of just sources of recurring monthly
revenue, they will keep right on trying to squeeze every
last nickel out of them with no thought at all for the
clients' needs.

One of the reasons I respect your business model is
that you've always promoted full protection -- physical
and electronic. That takes more of a comitment because
you necessarily spend more time per job doing things
that make the customer secure but don't necessarily
bring in extra RMR. One foul-mouthed lout we all know
has often criticized you for that. This law was made
for people like him.
But the government appearing to step in like this is
simply saying to the market place that there IS a
legitimate place for contracts when you are paying
down equipment costs, but that legitimacy stops when
you are holding the consumer to a long term contract
for nothing more than specific monitoring services,
with a guarantee of long term revenues for you, but
with little or nothing of gain in it for the consumer.

Let the church say, "Amen." :^)
One of the other benefits of such legislation is that it
will force marginal companies to clean up their act
since consumers can cancel anytime they want. Plus,
I have no doubt it will drive prices downward quickly
which is not good for the industry...

I'm not sure about that. As an online marketer, I mark
my products up significantly less than most installing
dealers. Doing so has brought a flood of customers my
way, even during hard times. I've been examining sales
patterns over the past five years and our business has
actually done better as the rest of the market has
slumped. All I can figure is that with a tighter economy
more people are looking for ways to economize. For a
growing segment of the alarm market that means DIY.
Since almost no local or national alarm dealers offer
support to Do-It-Yourselfers, people search online.
With such large websites as ours (92,000 pages now),
Google, Yahoo and the rest give us good placement.
That means increased sales.

Any alarm company that is seeing enough of a drop in
sales ought to carefully examine its pricing policy. If
there's room to drop a few percent and still make a
profit, go for it. Better to have 20% of something than
80% of nothing.
However, the days of ridiculous $30 plus monitoring
rates that don't involve equipment "write downs" will
rapidly disappear......

True, and it's about time.
It will be interesting to see if this catches on. For all
I know so far, it is just talk since no one has come
back and said that it actually exists here in Canada
in any specific province.

We'll have to wait and see. I probably ought to email
my state reps suggesting they put forth similar legislation
here in Florida. Lord knows the current statute isn't
doing much to protect the public from some of these
characters. Heck, we've got one of the most dishonest,
vile jerks in the trade actually sitting on the state
electrical board. How disgusting!

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>
 
F

Frank Olson

tourman said:
Is anyone aware of any Canadian provinces where long term monitoring
contracts can be cancelled immediately by the client provided the
contract is for service only, and does not cover paying down any
equipment costs in the rate ?

I was talking to someone from Alberta yesterday who said this exists
in at least one other province, and is being considered for
introduction there in Alberta. As I understood it, this would prevent
alarmco's from holding clients to a long term contract if they wished
to cancel early provided the contract did not involve any equipment
equity paydown.
So I guess this would mean that those who ordered a "free system"
would be held to the contract and forced to pay out the rest of the
term, since there is equipment paydown involved. But someone else who
did a takeover, where the client owned the system outright, the client
wouldn't be forced to comply with the terms of a three year contract
for example, and could cancel immediately (since this involved only
service in a broad term). Presumably, after the free system was paid
for, it might go monthly since there would be no reason to hit the
client with another long term contract (or at least a knowledgeable
client who knew the law could refuse to pay up if he decided to leave
that alarmco for any reason, contract or no contract)

Frank, do you know of any such contract limitations existing currently
in Canada? It sounds like some provincial government is trying to even
things up a bit....

RHC


A number of provinces have looked at enhancing consumer protection and
the companies aggressively marketing the so-called "free systems" are
but one of the reasons. If there are going to be any applicable
exemptions regarding "equipment buy-down", I think that would amount to
nothing more than a "smoke and mirror" show when the companies doing
this kind of marketing "adjust" their strategy. It won't apply to lease
contracts (and the majority of large commercial systems are leased) or
"rental" agreements (like AlarmFarce). In the first instance, the
"lease" term can be extended (if the client opts for "included
maintenance"). In the second, the equipment remains the property of the
company (Brinks, AlarmFarce, Sonitrol). As far as I'm concerned, the
whole thing (consumer protection legislation) should be a Federal issue
and we both know where that can lead if it's mismanaged or mishandled
(do I have to remind you about "gun control"?).
 
N

Norm Mugford

Mr BAss wrote:

"Heck, we've got one of the most dishonest,
vile jerks in the trade actually sitting on the state
electrical board. How disgusting!".

Why Mr. BAss...you're not on the state electrical board.
That would be disgusting! But since you can't get a
license in Florida, you can't get on the board.

Knock, Knock, Mr. BAss.....

Norm Mugford



Robert L Bass said:
Good point, Bob. They're trying to give consumers an
even break and that is a good thing. It is unfortunate
that too many alarm companies use contracts so one-
sided and patently unfair that a law is needed to protect
the public from alarm company abuse.

Don't get me wrong on this. I believe that many alarm
companies are run by decent, honest people who try
to make a living while givving their customers good
service and proper protection. The problem is that
there are way too many alarm dealers who cheat their
customers, mislead them about their contracts, offer
insufficient protection and charge ever-increasing fees.
Such companies are the reason we need laws like that
in the USA, too.


I like to believe that's true, Bob. Hopefully, the Jiminexes
of the industry are in the minority. One tends to become
somewhat jaded after reading the constant stream of
alarm company horror stories posted here. You have
to remember that satisfied customers rarely say anytrhing.
Perhaps there's hope for the trade after alkl, eh?


Well, that's the point, isn't it? Unless alarm company
owners see customers as *people* who need real
*security* instead of just sources of recurring monthly
revenue, they will keep right on trying to squeeze every
last nickel out of them with no thought at all for the
clients' needs.

One of the reasons I respect your business model is
that you've always promoted full protection -- physical
and electronic. That takes more of a comitment because
you necessarily spend more time per job doing things
that make the customer secure but don't necessarily
bring in extra RMR. One foul-mouthed lout we all know
has often criticized you for that. This law was made
for people like him.


Let the church say, "Amen." :^)


I'm not sure about that. As an online marketer, I mark
my products up significantly less than most installing
dealers. Doing so has brought a flood of customers my
way, even during hard times. I've been examining sales
patterns over the past five years and our business has
actually done better as the rest of the market has
slumped. All I can figure is that with a tighter economy
more people are looking for ways to economize. For a
growing segment of the alarm market that means DIY.
Since almost no local or national alarm dealers offer
support to Do-It-Yourselfers, people search online.
With such large websites as ours (92,000 pages now),
Google, Yahoo and the rest give us good placement.
That means increased sales.

Any alarm company that is seeing enough of a drop in
sales ought to carefully examine its pricing policy. If
there's room to drop a few percent and still make a
profit, go for it. Better to have 20% of something than
80% of nothing.


True, and it's about time.


We'll have to wait and see. I probably ought to email
my state reps suggesting they put forth similar legislation
here in Florida. Lord knows the current statute isn't
doing much to protect the public from some of these
characters. Heck, we've got one of the most dishonest,
vile jerks in the trade actually sitting on the state
electrical board. How disgusting!

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
941-925-8650
4883 Fallcrest Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34233
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
 
M

Mike

RoberBass said:
That's an excellent consumer protection law. We need that in the USA to
protect homeowners from unscrupulous alarm companies. Remember the guy
who said he called an alarm company to repair his local, unmonitored
alarm? They came out and replaced the battery or some such thing, then
had him sign the "repair bill." On the front it said that by signing he
was agreeing to the terms and conditions on the back. On the reverse
side, in airline ticket size type was a 3-year monitoring agreement.
What a bunch of jerks.

--baloney detector--

most states have laws that govern contract law and part of that law is
minimum type size. If type size in a contract is smaller than
prescribed by law the contract is non binding. Sounds like mr bASS is
making up stories again. tsk, tsk.
 
J

Jim

Is anyone aware of any Canadian provinces where long term monitoring
contracts can be cancelled immediately by the client provided the
contract is for service only, and does not cover paying down any
equipment costs in the rate ?

I was talking to someone from Alberta yesterday who said this exists
in at least one other province, and is being considered for
introduction there in Alberta. As I understood it, this would prevent
alarmco's from holding clients to a long term contract if they wished
to cancel early provided the contract did not involve any equipment
equity paydown.
So I guess this would mean that those who ordered a "free system"
would be held to the contract and forced to pay out the rest of the
term, since there is equipment paydown involved. But someone else who
did a takeover, where the client owned the system outright, the client
wouldn't be forced to comply with the terms of a three year contract
for example, and could cancel immediately (since this involved only
service in a broad term). Presumably, after the free system was paid
for, it might go monthly since there would be no reason to hit the
client with another long term contract (or at least a knowledgeable
client who knew the law could refuse to pay up if he decided to leave
that alarmco for any reason, contract or no contract)

Frank, do you know of any such contract limitations existing currently
in Canada? It sounds like some provincial government is trying to even
things up a bit....

RHC


It would seem to me that a law of this nature would be rather unusual
since it seems (as you describe it) that it is directed specifically
at one industry only. It would depend upon how liberal the government
agency who's considering the law ... is .... and how much opposition
to it can be mustered by the offended industry. The other factor is,
that if it isn't specific to only the alarm industry, then the
possibility of it's passage is even less. You see, unlike you, most
people in business are interested in their own success and
continuation of their business and like to take advantage of the free
enterprise system that a capitalistic society offers them. There are
so many businesses that depend upon service contracts to run their
businesses, I'm pretty sure the outcry would be unanimous. Just think
about it ..... Fuel oil companies, lawn service, air conditioning,
window washing, appliance repair, fleet maintenance, property
maintenance ....the list is endless. Additionally, how can government
limit anyone from signing a contract that they want to sign? And
allowing them to do so .... just decree that, carte blanche, it can be
canceled at a whim? Something like that would certainly be used as
precedent and would completely destroy contract law. Me thinks you're
wishful thinking. Or .... the liberal gun politicians up your way have
taken up a new cause.
 
J

Jim

That's an excellent consumer protection law. We need that in the USA
to protect homeowners from unscrupulous alarm companies. Remember
the guy who said he called an alarm company to repair his local,
unmonitored alarm? They came out and replaced the battery or some
such thing, then had him sign the "repair bill." On the front it
said that by signing he was agreeing to the terms and conditions on
the back. On the reverse side, in airline ticket size type was a
3-year monitoring agreement. What a bunch of jerks.
Hmmm

Would you like to post a reference to that? "Airline ticket size
type"?

Nah ..... I didn't think you would.
 
J

Jim

True, in that specific situation you mention, such a law would have
prevented that consumer from being defrauded.

I don't really think what he said really took place but, we'll see if
he can actually pull up a reference.

However, I think the
intent of this consumer protection legislation is more to even things
up in the market place for the consumer right across the board.

As I said in my earlier post, it just doesn't seem like a law would be
passed against a specific industry. It seem to me that precedent being
set, it would be used against and affect too many other industries.The
outcry and opposition by politicians funded by trade organizations
alone, would certainly
put a stop to such a law.
It
pays to remember that the vast majority of alarm companies are honest
and don't engage in fraudulent activities such as you illustrate.
However, even the vast majority of good companies engage in needlessly
signing clients into long term contracts for all the equity building
reasons we all know and love.

Why and how is it that you describe equity building as needless?
To suggest that this is not a fair thing
to do will always generate volumes of criticism as we have seen in the
past, and this is understandable given that most companies look no
further than their bottom line.

Looking further than the bottom line is an important part of keeping
a
business running. If one ONLY looks at the bottom line, then it's
likely
that the business will ultimately fail ... or .... at the very least,
not do as well as it could do by offering beyond the norm service.
After all, it's the service aspect that small companies offer that
sets them apart from the bigger companies ( who by the way and as you
know are the biggest offenders in this area)

Do you imply that those companies who offer long term contracts only
look at the bottom line? I think you apply your jaded thinking about
term contracts to those companies and have convinced your
self that anyone who offers long term contracts do NOT also practice
going beyond the bottom line. Do you ever consider those companies who
offer long term contracts and work hard to deserve their customers
loyalty?
The companies who go out of their way to anticipate problems, call
their
clients back in the middle of the night when problems occur? Call
clients after false alarms are received? Go on service
calls at night, on weekends on holidays? Offer lenient or no payments
when times are bad? Lower payments or none at all to limited income
seniors? Do all the things and possibly MORE than YOU claim to have an
exclusive on .....yet also build equity in their business as you are
not smart enough to do?
But the government appearing to step
in like this is simply saying to the market place that there IS a
legitimate place for contracts when you are paying down equipment
costs, but that legitimacy stops when you are holding the consumer to
a long term contract for nothing more than specific monitoring
services, with a guarantee of long term revenues for you, but with
little or nothing of gain in it for the consumer.

Do you mean that holding the price of monitoring for a long term is
not something for the consumer to gain? Followed by good service and
adherence to the agreement? Isn't that an advantage? It seems to
work for me and 10s of thousand of other alarm companies who've been
in business for decades. Which, as we all know, that if there were
only long term contracts with no good service, that these companies
would cease to exist.
One of the other benefits of such legislation is that it will force
marginal companies to clean up their act since consumers can cancel
anytime they want. Plus, I have no doubt it will drive prices downward
quickly which is not good for the industry. However, the days of
ridiculous $30 plus monitoring rates that don't involve equipment
"write downs" will rapidly disappear......

So you're saying that it's better for alarm companies to eliminate
their source
of equity and reduce their income for the benefit of the
consumer ..... Uh-huh
Sure ...... that oughta go over big with everyone in this trade .....

ummm Why I bet you could sell that world wide, to the alarm
industy ....I'm sure.
It will be interesting to see if this catches on. For all I know so
far, it is just talk since no one has come back and said that it
actually exists here in Canada in any specific province.

Actually .... Bob ..... you're having a dream .......

HEY WAKE UP!
 
T

tourman

I ask a simply question whether or not anyone has heard about this
here in Canada and you come back with your endless self serving
arguments for the industry status quo, twisting words to suit
yourself. I guess we should be thankful you chose to answer in an
intelligent manner, rather than your usual manner of filling the
newsgroup with hate mongering !

I have no interest in discussing anything with people like you. Nor do
I care what you think. You're a dinosaur! Go away !

RHC
 
J

Jim

I ask a simply question whether or not anyone has heard about this
here in Canada and you come back with your endless self serving
arguments for the industry status quo, twisting words to suit
yourself.

Ahhhh I see. So anyone who want's to build equity in his business in
order to build a retirement fund is ummmm simply self serving?
Oh ..... ok. I'll just trash all these contracts and sell the business
for peanuts and go on welfare. Sure ....... that's a wise business
decision. Yep ..... we know how wise you are because anyone who is
smart enough to give free parts and service, forever with his alarm
installations, has got to be smart enough to know that building equity
for retirement is simply a waste of time. Oh and I don't want to
forget that you're also of a mind that your company with month to
month contracts is worth just as much as a company with term
contracts. So why wouldn't anyone put stock in what you say over what
is proved otherwise every time someone sells their business. Yep ....
you sure got a lot of people looking to do what you do ......
yessireee!

And I guess you mean by me twisting words .... that you just can't
justify what you say ....... or convince anyone else that the way you
run your hobby company, is in any way competent.

I guess we should be thankful you chose to answer in an
intelligent manner, rather than your usual manner of filling the
newsgroup with hate mongering !

I presume you mean my pesistant persuit of the worst hate monger
Usenet has ever known eh? ..... your psudo-friend, Dead man Bass.
Funny though, you don't seem to have those same things to say for
anyone else who does the same thing or for him and all his nasty
conduct...... only me, the one who also wont let you off the hook when
ever you try to promote your stupid and idiotic ideas about how to run
a viable profit making business. Must be just a coincidence ......HUH?

But anyway ... Yeah .... I know .... it's too bad everyone didn't
work for 30 years for a mega company. And only by your shear will
power to tow the line like a good little soldier for decades, finally
got your pension and now has the means to be so magnanimous as to run
a profit and equity free company. Totally unaware or considerate
enough think that there are others who don't have your ability to sit
behind a desk for decades, simply waiting for big business money, to
fall upon them. Some people acutally have put a lifetime of effort
into their own businesses and livelyhood and are looking to reap some
reward from it ..... unlike you. You've probably read about it
somewhere .... you know what I mean. Taking a risk, putting it all on
the line. living with litttle or nothing to spare, working other jobs
while trying to make a business grow from nothing while supporting a
home and family. Working 60 ...80 hours a week for years ...... you
know all that hard work crap that others do. Yeah I know ..... there's
really no reason to expect that someone like that should want to
justify all the work they've put into their business through the years
and look back and say .... it was all worth it. Nah ...... why would
anyone in their right mind expect anything so rewarding as being able
to reap some reward from their hard work and live in some comfort in
their retirement. Not you certainly .... but .... errrrr ....but wait
a minute .... your already CAN do that ..... can't you? ...... Jeeeze
then ..... why would you ....... hmmmmmm!
I have no interest in discussing anything with people like you. Nor do
I care what you think. You're a dinosaur! Go away !

Wellllll ..... I'll take that to mean the same thing it's always
meant. You have nothing that can refute what I say. That you can't
grasp the fact that not building equity in a business is asinine and
that offering free service and parts with your installations is self
destructive and that if you had actually had to start your business
from scratch, as most people do, to support you, that you never would
have gotten it off the ground and that if you didn't have another
source of income for your retirement years, you'd be doing things just
like everyone else.

Being called a dinosaur is a compliment. That means I've been around a
lot longer than most and have survived. If it weren't for your ill
earned pension income, you'd die out long before you could ever be
called one, or at the least would live in poverty, when you sold your
worthless business.


And ME? Go Away?

Not on your life ..... not on your life.

Other wise, Bob you seem like a nice guy, but as long as you try to
promote your idiotic theory ..... I'm going to be right there
supporting the right way to run a business. Every time.

Like it or not. Responding or not. Discussing it or not.
Get used to it.

As always
Love and kisses .... your friend
 
T

tourman

I won't respond to your endless repetitive comments regarding how to
run a business, since you seem to be incapable of understanding there
are many ways to do so and make money. I've heard it all before. And,
you are quite incorrect in your assumptions about my past activities,
but you believe whatever you want....it's no skin off my nose.

No, it is YOU who is the real hatemonger and fills this newsgroup with
your disgusting comments about RLB. I can understand how someone can
become angry with another but I cannot for the life of me understand
how anyone could ever wish another dead over it. For whatever good
qualities you might have, you completely negate them with your vile
behaviour on this newsgroup. I don't understand how anyone could
become so hateful towards another simply because of what they perceive
are injustices done. RLB makes no secret why he is here, but he offers
assistance and good posts. And who among us is correct 100% of the
time. I don't remember one decent helpful post you have ever made; at
least none that stand out. This is a virtual newsgroup filled with all
the same kind of people that exist in real life - grow up and learn a
little tolerance.

I'm quite certain that if you and I sat down over a beer in real life
and discussed business, we would probably end up agreeing about more
than we disagree about. But you always resort to taking the low road
and end up dragging every discussion down into the mud. I've met many
people like you over my 40 years in various businesses, and almost
without exception, they all are negative, narrow thinking people that
I generally wouldn't want to associate with. So you continue to
display your ugliness and I'm sure that some will follow your lead,
but I hope more reasonable and intelligent people won't. With your
long time experience in the alarm business, you could offer a positive
contribution to this newsgroup but for reasons known only to you, you
choose not to. That is too bad...

That's all that's really worth saying here. Oh, one last
thing...."your friend"....that's REALLY not ever likely....

RHC
 
T

tourman

Ok, I'll take that as a "no", you haven't heard anything specific. The
source of this information was in a position to know about such things
in Alberta, and it seems they are seriously looking at it. However,
you are quite correct; those who are likely to be seen as an abuser
under any new legislation would likely just adjust their approach to
negate things. And since it does affect contract law, I hope they
REALLY think this one through.

If they use as little common sense as they took vis a vis the long gun
registry, we will all be in SERIOUS trouble...

RHC
 
J

Jim

I won't respond to your endless repetitive comments regarding how to
run a business, since you seem to be incapable of understanding there
are many ways to do so and make money. I've heard it all before.

Well Bob, the above comment is exactly what I will say back to
you .... except that I WILL respond. You see, it's letting people like
you get away with promoting asinine ideas that has to be nipped in the
bud. And I consider my self a pretty good nipper. Especially when the
ideas are as dumb and unacceptable as yours.
And,
you are quite incorrect in your assumptions about my past activities,
but you believe whatever you want....it's no skin off my nose.

Hey boo boo, I'm only repeating what you've offered in this group
about how you got to be where you are. How would I know that you
worked for a big company and retired with lots a benefits? That being
so .... it follows then that you don't have to depend upon running
your business to aquire a retirement fund. YOU've already got
one ..... Right? I didn't make that up ..... did I?

I mean, why/how else could someone come up with the idiotic idea that
one should NOT build equity in their company and give away free parts
and service forever? Who, in their right mind, would start out to run
a business for years and years, with no possible return on
investment ....when there is opportunity to have it? Who would give
away parts and labor at no charge with out a return on investment?
Who would actually plan to run a business, flying in the face of all
common sense and proven operation of alarm companies, THROUGHOUT THE
WORLD and say that it was better to give that all away to make their
customers "happy".? Does one retire on the good feelings of their
clients?
No, it is YOU who is the real hatemonger and fills this newsgroup with
your disgusting comments about RLB. I can understand how someone can
become angry with another but I cannot for the life of me understand
how anyone could ever wish another dead over it. For whatever good
qualities you might have, you completely negate them with your vile
behaviour on this newsgroup. I don't understand how anyone could
become so hateful towards another simply because of what they perceive
are injustices done.

Lookit Bobby boy, this piece of shit Bass has been the cause of untold
inhumanities for years. If you're to blind to see it ..... that's not
my fault. If you'd like a tour down memory lane, I'll be happy to show
you all of the mean and hateful things this hatemongering son of a
bitch has done to people and laughed all the way. Causing people to
lose their jobs, stealing published material from people, responsible
for someones death, a felon for pulling a gun on someone,
impersonating people to ruin their reputation, mailbombing newsgroups
to hold them hostage because the people in it hate his guts for what
he does to people. YOU'RE a gun owner Bob, WHEN's the last time YOU
pulled a gun on someone? When's the last time you stabbed someone?
When's the last time YOU used drugs or went to jail? And you think
what *** I *** do ONLY to him .... is not acceptable?
Yea ..... sure. As much as what I do is terrible in the eyes of some
people, it is deserving by every standard of what justice is. He's a
seriously demented and deranged individual that has learned to just
barely exist in society. He's learned all the wormholes that a slug
like him would need to find in order to remain unscathed in a society
of moral people. I have absolutely no reservations whatsoever in
wishing that someone of his character be gone from this world and
state it. The only difference between me and the rest of the people
who've witnessed and been the brunt of this piece of decayed flesh's
conduct, is that I say what they think.

As always you have the option to not read it. Otherwise ..... you
don't have any say of what goes on in this Newsgroup ...... And if you
remember, that's a quote of your "beloved" friend and a "attitude"
that HE has fostered here, and NOT anyone else.

RLB makes no secret why he is here, but he offers
assistance and good posts. And who among us is correct 100% of the
time. I don't remember one decent helpful post you have ever made; at
least none that stand out. This is a virtual newsgroup filled with all
the same kind of people that exist in real life - grow up and learn a
little tolerance.

You don't remember any helpful posts I've made? Hmmmm seems as if
you've got a little "tolerence" and bias problem of your own to
review. Take a look at the recent Microwave detector thread. How about
the Andersen 400 window thread. Want to know how many people E-mailed
me for the information on how to do it and the reception it got and
the agreement that Bass would likely steal it? Me thinks you only see
what you want to see Bob-o-boy

I gave him all the tolerance that anyone deserves and so have hundreds
of others that he's eventually goaded into a pissing contest. That's
his method and ultimately his goal. Anyone who doesn't agree with him
becomes the brunt of his sarcasm and stinging ridicule. Self defense
was created just for people like him.
I'm quite certain that if you and I sat down over a beer in real life
and discussed business, we would probably end up agreeing about more
than we disagree about. But you always resort to taking the low road
and end up dragging every discussion down into the mud.

I can't help it if that's where you reside. You see, I can talk with
the kings or the peasants. But you have to talk to them in the
language that they deserve to be spoken to. You'll note that I do
that ..... quite well.

I've met many
people like you over my 40 years in various businesses, and almost
without exception, they all are negative, narrow thinking people that
I generally wouldn't want to associate with.

Ya know ..... I've noticed the same thing .... but I still think I'd
like you anyway. Through the years, some of the "other subjects" that
have come up ... we seem to agree.
So you continue to
display your ugliness and I'm sure that some will follow your lead,
but I hope more reasonable and intelligent people won't.

Have you noticed how many people do and always have taken exception to
what Dead ass does? Now that can't be a coincidence ..... can it?
But then again, I guess you COULD say that all of them are not
reasonalbe and intelligent people and what that miseralble bastard has
done, is ok. But, unfortunately ..... you'd be in the minority. I
mean .... if he can do all kinds of nasty and abborant things to
people and you think that it's all ok because he's helpful to
people .......... why do you criticize what I do. Could it simply be
that I don't agree with your stupid business plan and tell you about
it and THAT's what you REALLY don't like? HmmmmMMMM?
With your
long time experience in the alarm business, you could offer a positive
contribution to this newsgroup but for reasons known only to you, you
choose not to. That is too bad...

As I said, I just think that you've let yourself become biased about
my contibutions here by the facts that you don't like that I don't
agree with your idiocy and tell you about it rather that just let you
sing on as the others in ASA do ............. and you don't like the
fact that I put Dead ass right where he belongs ..... out of the way
and out of touch with other human beings that have moral character by
using tactics that you don't agree with.

By the way, my theory is, if you're going to beat someone, you can't
use the same level of force they're using. Something greater is always
required. Usenet makes that a little more difficult to implement, but
the theory is saved by the fact that he's going to die soon .....
so ....... what the hell.
That's all that's really worth saying here. Oh, one last
thing...."your friend"....that's REALLY not ever likely....
Yeah .... I know .............. Just thought I'd piss you off a
little.
I guess it worked Eh?

your (almost?) friend ;-)
 
T

tourman

Nope, not a bit! I just look at the source. I'd have to care to get
angry....

RHC

Yeah .... I know .............. Just thought I'd piss you off a
little.
I guess it worked Eh?

your (almost?) friend ;-)
 
J

Jim

Nope, not a bit! I just look at the source. I'd have to care to get
angry....

RHC

Yeah but .... you care enough to reply ..... honey cheeks!

However ...... speaking of sources .....................

But anyway.......

Your ( not even a teensyweensy?) friend.
 
F

Frank Olson

tourman said:
Ok, I'll take that as a "no", you haven't heard anything specific.

Where have I said anything that would lead to this conclusion? I think
you've been spending too much time in Florida. :)

The
source of this information was in a position to know about such things
in Alberta, and it seems they are seriously looking at it.

Government's always "seriously thinking" of the next way they can fleece
the taxpayer. It's not going to happen because any such legislation
would have to "piggyback" on the existing consumer protection laws.

However,
you are quite correct; those who are likely to be seen as an abuser
under any new legislation would likely just adjust their approach to
negate things. And since it does affect contract law, I hope they
REALLY think this one through.

I can write anything I want in my contracts as long as certain
legislated clauses are also present and what I'm writing isn't against
the law or socially/morally unacceptable. "Reasonable terms and
conditions of service" are good watch words.

If they use as little common sense as they took vis a vis the long gun
registry, we will all be in SERIOUS trouble...

Well I'm pretty optimistic considering it's a different government
looking at the thing. The fact that they're also "Conservative" leads
me to suspect that they won't be interfering directly with the revenue
stream of legitimate alarm companies. After all, we all pay our taxes,
business license fees, Workers Comp, etc.

On a side note, I respect your views in regard to the service you
provide your customers. You see things a little differently from Jim
(who obviously doesn't have a son standing in the wings eager to take
over the business). Jim is ensuring his business has equity that he'll
be able to bargain into a very comfortable retirement. I see nothing
wrong with this. All of our contracts are three year terms as well and
we haven't had a rate increase in the many years we've been in business.
We've also never pursued a customer who's decided to opt out of our
service. The legal means to do so is certainly there, but neither of us
would ever exercise it. A contract is a set of terms and conditions
that both parties (to the contract) agree to. I've never yet had to
coerce a client into signing one and I always make sure to go over the
wording with them before they do. There are benefits to a guaranteed
term contract for both parties.

Now shake hands and go back to your corners. :)
 
T

tourman

tourman wrote:

Ok, I'll take that as a "no", you haven't heard anything specific.
Where have I said anything that would lead to this conclusion? I think
you've been spending too much time in Florida. :)

RHC: No Frank, not nearly enough. I shoot IPSC (extreme action pistol
shooting...a sport on the fringes of political acceptability) and
spend as much time getting all the permits to travel around as I do
actually shooting. Lets see now...a PAL for restricted (two day course
and 8 months waiting; an ATT to go to the gun club (only available
through sponsorship by the gun club and a two month wait..good for one
year only; then an ATT to each sporting match outside the province,
plus one to the border and back; then I have to beg some gun hating
petty bureaucrat at the Canadian Firearms Centre to pretty please let
me travel from point A to point B with my handguns. It's all FUCKING
BULLSHIT by a government that caters to an urban anti-gun population.
Canada sucks big time ! When I go to Florida (with the Form 6 for
import / export of my firearms), they leave me alone to engage in the
legitimate shooting sports. They basically trust their population to
own and use firearms properly. God forbid though you mess up; they
throw the book at you. And that's more like the way it should be. No
Frank...not nearly enough time in Florida....
Well I'm pretty optimistic considering it's a different government
looking at the thing. The fact that they're also "Conservative" leads
me to suspect that they won't be interfering directly with the revenue
stream of legitimate alarm companies. After all, we all pay our taxes,
business license fees, Workers Comp, etc.

RHC: As I said originally, the source of the information was
legitimate; however, neither he nor I can know for sure. That's why I
asked the question on the newsgroup; not to stir up Jiminex
again...."))
On a side note, I respect your views in regard to the service you
provide your customers. You see things a little differently from Jim
(who obviously doesn't have a son standing in the wings eager to take
over the business). Jim is ensuring his business has equity that he'll
be able to bargain into a very comfortable retirement. I see nothing
wrong with this. All of our contracts are three year terms as well and
we haven't had a rate increase in the many years we've been in business.
We've also never pursued a customer who's decided to opt out of our
service. The legal means to do so is certainly there, but neither of us
would ever exercise it. A contract is a set of terms and conditions
that both parties (to the contract) agree to. I've never yet had to
coerce a client into signing one and I always make sure to go over the
wording with them before they do. There are benefits to a guaranteed
term contract for both parties.

RHC: I don't really give a damn if a client signs a 10 year contract.
Most legitimate companies don't harrass their clients when they leave;
they treat them just as you do. Whether my son is standing in the
wings or not, I choose not to lock clients in long term. That is just
the way I choose to do my business and it gets me a tremendous number
of clients that I wouldn't likely get without giving them this
flexibility. When they move as many have done this summer because of
the hot real estate market, I thank them for their business and often
get the alarm in their new place (pretty much always especially if
it's a takeover). Plus 75% of the previous alarm accounts come back to
me due to low prices and no long term commitment. I admit to some
initial trepidation at the beginning, but I soon found this is not
really an exposure if you also give good service and a good warranty
and your prices are on the lower side of the spectrum. And due to my
particular set of circumstances, I can still get 30 months if I do
decide to sell. But that won't be happening.
Now shake hands and go back to your corners. :)

RHC: I will if you will...with RLB I mean...... yeah, I didn't think
so....too much water under the bridge :)))
 
F

Frank Olson

tourman said:
RHC: I don't really give a damn if a client signs a 10 year contract.
Most legitimate companies don't harrass their clients when they leave;
they treat them just as you do. Whether my son is standing in the
wings or not, I choose not to lock clients in long term. That is just
the way I choose to do my business and it gets me a tremendous number
of clients that I wouldn't likely get without giving them this
flexibility.

That's your choice. You've modeled your business as a good alternative
to "the Borg" mentality and I certainly can't imagine you changing your
marketing strategy. RLB would call that "disingenuous".

When they move as many have done this summer because of
the hot real estate market, I thank them for their business and often
get the alarm in their new place (pretty much always especially if
it's a takeover). Plus 75% of the previous alarm accounts come back to
me due to low prices and no long term commitment.

We do a similar trade and the three year contract term has never been a
stumbling block (except to one property manager who wound up taking
another year of crappy service with another alarmco before they finally
"caved in").

I admit to some
initial trepidation at the beginning, but I soon found this is not
really an exposure if you also give good service and a good warranty
and your prices are on the lower side of the spectrum.

I've never been a believer of "the lowest price" mentality. We offer
good service at a fair price. We are NOT the lowest.

And due to my
particular set of circumstances, I can still get 30 months if I do
decide to sell. But that won't be happening.

Good for you. The problem with any sort of buyout is trying to ensure
the purchaser gets a fair return for their investment (and thereby
satisfy the terms of the purchase agreement). If they're big enough to
be able to fund the purchase without involving a bank then you won't
have a problem. When a "third party" investor is fronting the money
though, he'll usually want to see "paper".
RHC: I will if you will...with RLB I mean...... yeah, I didn't think
so....too much water under the bridge :)))


There's a whole lot more than "water" under that bridge (as well you
know). As long as he continues to post the nonsense he does I'll
continue to call him on it. It's all been said before.
 
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