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Car battery jumpstart gadgets

A typical 10F super capacitor is only rated at 2.5V and a maximum current of 4.5A.

You'd need a wacking great pile of them to make a boost start unit that can handle a 70A+ discharge and without using complicated charging/discharging arrangements.

To get around 15V and just 70A you'd need a bank of 16 parallel sets of 6 in series! - that's just for a 70A output. Say 100 supercaps at $5/cap...... (more like 400 if you want to cope with the potential of 300A cranking amps).

$500 to $2000...... bargain......:rolleyes:
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
A typical 10F super capacitor is only rated at 2.5V and a maximum current of 4.5A...To get around 15V and just 70A you'd need a bank of 16 parallel sets of 6 in series! - that's just for a 70A output. Say 100 supercaps at $5/cap...... (more like 400 if you want to cope with the potential of 300A cranking amps).

$500 to $2000...... bargain......:rolleyes:
That's today's prices. In ten years or less it should be down to $50 to $200 or, if purchased in quantity from Asian manufacturers, $5 to $20. By the time it gets down to fifty cents to two bux, which I could afford on my fixed retirement income, internal combustion engines may have gone the way of the dodo bird.

Never underestimate the advances that will come with improved technology and understanding of things at the atomic and molecular level... and how to build and manipulate devices that employ this technology. Things should be quite interesting this century, if the human race survives it.
 
I have two batteries in my car, cheap and reliable installation, if the starter battery is flat I press one button and jump start myself, now THAT is smug! :D

Regards

Dave
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
That's today's prices.

Not so long ago there was a whole stack of 3000F supercaps on eBay for less than $20 each.

Apparently they were surplus after a failed project. They had screw terminals in the ends and from YouTube videos, were capable of huge currents.

Not so cheap today. (Those ones are capable of 2200A apparently!)
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
I have two batteries in my car, cheap and reliable installation, if the starter battery is flat I press one button and jump start myself, now THAT is smug! :D

Regards

Dave
Two lead-acid batteries in the same car can lead to a GIANT FAIL if the weather turns VERY COLD. This battery chemistry is notorious for failing to deliver sufficient current as the temperature plummets, even if fully charged. So much for smugness under those conditions!

IIRC, it does get pretty cold in Spain in the Winter, unless you happen to live on the Mediterranean Sea coast. Super-capacitors don't have a low-temperature limitation on their ability to deliver current, so for a few Euros more you can remain protected with a fully-charged super-capacitor backup "battery".:cool:
 
Despite the appeal of super capacitors I still wonder why some people try to sideline the good old lead-acid battery.

Considering most people purchase a car with a lead-acid battery installed and run it for years - sometimes decades - without even bothering to top them up(!) - the fact that they reliably, for the most part, start your car anything from 2 to 20 times a day, power all the accessories and take 'dogs abuse' for the whole of their natural life, they are remarkably well behaved.

It's only when they eventually (start to) fail and people are loathed to spend a decent amount on a GOOD replacement that the topic changes to 'alternatives' when, in all manner of fact, simply fitting a new l-a battery is the simplest, cheapest and easiest solution!!!

I've found this to be particularly the case with marine lead-acid battery users - who seem to think that their battery 'had better bl00dy NOT fail...' even though it's been fitted (and abused) for 5 or more years!

Let's hear it for the good old lead acid battery...... yay!!!!!
 
I use my vehicle for off road and expeditions into remote areas. I use a marine VSR so the marine batteries are well maintained and will isolate from each other if there is a fault, there is also a monitoring station so I would get plenty of warning off the GIANT FAIL. FWIW I do live on the med coast so a typical low for us is around 10 C, go North and - 20 is not uncommon, given a lead acid battery will still work down to about - 35 or less I doubt I have any worries.

Regards

Dave
 
1940 calling 1944. Well said. I have the greatest respect for anyone who can (genuinely) laugh at themselves. This is undoubtedly the Egotistical Age and few are able to admit that they're not the greatest thing since Panko breadcrumbs. Sadly, there may only be one more age to come - The Nuclear Winter Age. When online discussions about car batteries will not only be completely irrelevant, but impossible, due to our new reliance on loud shouts, or tin cans and string for longer range communication.

Anyway, back to the battery matter. 1944 - Why didn't you answer my first post, saying something like, 'Yes, what you suggest is entirely possible, but due current technological and economic conditions, impractical and expensive'.

Although, on reflection, if that had happened, we wouldn't have had this excellent discourse on the subject ;). So belay that/

To summarize then: I asked my question mainly because my ancient backup Toyota also had battery issues when my not-so-ancient Toyota's battery flattened (park lights left on overnight), so I couldn't jumpstart Junior from Senior. Then, after checking new battery prices and picking myself up off the floor, I discovered that most alternatives also involved an expenditure of $200-$300.

Which got me thinking about a simple way of directly using mains power as a jumpstarter. Which is obviously not possible, right now, anyway.

So I won't say another word on the matter. Well, probably won't...:D
 
Which got me thinking about a simple way of directly using mains power as a jumpstarter. Which is obviously not possible, right now, anyway.
Huh? I have been using mains to jumpstart my cars with dead batteries all my life.. Yes, it take 30 min or so to charge the battery, but that just meant 30 minutes that I didn't have to be at work :p Why are you in such a hurry?

Bob
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
Which got me thinking about a simple way of directly using mains power as a jumpstarter. Which is obviously not possible, right now, anyway.
Sure, it's possible... and right away, too, if you care to spend the money for an appropriate transformer and rectifier. This is basically what the folks pushing electric automobiles want for those who buy into their concept. Just make sure your house and garage have at least 200 A, 240 VAC service, so you can charge the battery bank in your electric car overnight and then run it for a few hours the next day.

For simply starting an internal combustion engine, you need a lot of direct current at a lower voltage than that provided by the electric utility directly to your house. That's where a transformer comes in, to lower the voltage, and the diodes come in, to rectify the AC into DC. Others here have provided an intermediate solution (line powered battery charger plus a spare lead-acid battery) that doesn't require the brute force of a heavy step-down transformer and expensive 300+ A silicon diodes mounted on a massive heat sink, as my device does. Yet these other "solutions" still provide a "jumpstart" capability using mains power, just not so instantly at the push of a button. The key is to collect electrical energy from the mains in small amounts, and store that energy temporarily before releasing it into the starter motor to start the internal combustion engine. The traditional energy storage device is a relatively inexpensive lead-acid battery of appropriate size, but newer methods such as super-capacitors and lithium-ion batteries are available for anyone with deep enough pockets of cash.

An automobile electrical system does essentially the same thing as my roll-around device, my automobile alternator serving the function of the electric utility after the engine is running, and the automobile lead-acid battery being used to temporarily store the energy produced by the alternator. A modern automobile, equipped with all the gadgets and gizmos people seem to want, requires a considerable amount of current from its alternator, while needing a sufficient additional current capability to re-charge its battery in the presence of a continuous high-current load.

As @portyforty well knows, in earlier days automobiles only needed enough continuous electrical power to operate the ignition system, exterior lights at night, windshield-wiper motors when it rained, a fan to circulate cabin air over a heater core under the dash during cold weather, and perhaps a Delco vacuum-tube in-dash radio. These electrical loads could all be easily accommodated simultaneously and continuously with a DC generator and a 6 V lead-acid storage battery, provided the running engine's revolutions-per-minute was maintained sufficiently high.

That all disappeared in the 1940s after World War II. Six-volt batteries were soon replaced by twelve-volt batteries; DC generators were replaced by AC alternators, with integral diode rectifiers to provide direct current. And positive-grounded electrical systems were replaced with negative-grounded. Manual transmissions were replaced by automatics, many of which did NOT allow the engine crankshaft to be rotated from the rear wheels, through the transmission, when the automobile was pushed from behind. Push-starting was a common means of getting a car started if it had a flat battery and a manual transmission, because the ignition system received enough voltage from the residual magnetic field in the DC generator (whose shaft was rotated by means of a v-belt and pulley with the engine crankshaft when the car was pushed) to start the engine.

With all the "improvements" in automobile technology, it became necessary to carry "jumper cables" and depend on others to get a car with a dead battery started again. And then there were those who also depended on others to have a set of jumper cables... or a spare gas can... or a tire jack... obviously these erstwhile drivers were no Boy Scouts, who are always prepared. Me, I have membership in American Automobile Association (AAA) so help is just a phone call away... unless my cell phone battery is dead or I am out of range of a cell tower.:rolleyes:

The last automobile I encountered with a six-volt electrical system, was an old Dodge that my fraternal Grandfather owned. He kept it in an unheated detached garage at the home to which he retired in Morristown, TN, parking his car next to a bank of finned selenium rectifiers mounted on the inside of the outer wall of the garage. The "thing" was about the size of modern oven door and perhaps twelve inches or so deep, wired as a full-wave bridge rectifier, connected directly to 120 VAC power through a nichrome heater wound on a ceramic core. The rectified DC output from the bridge was connected directly to the terminal posts on the six-volt battery to provide a "trickle" charge. I have no idea how Grandfather determined how much resistance to use in series with the line voltage, or how he determined when the battery was charged and a trickle charge was no longer necessary.

I do remember getting shocked off this contraption, standing on the dirt floor of the garage (probably bare-footed) one summer and "experimentally" touching an exposed bare wire with one hand. I was maybe ten years old then and fascinated with Grandfather's electrical "stuff," motors and Edison cells and the like he had "acquired" over the years. He always warned me to "keep one hand in your pocket" before touching any bare wires. Didn't mention anything about bare feet IIRC.

It was a tough way to learn about electricity, but Grandfather was an "old school," West (by God!) Virginia, deep coal-mine electrician. He apparently favored learning by trial-and-error methods for anyone too lazy to read books and learn from the experience of others. So from then on I checked out of the library and read everything I could about electricity. Edison became my hero and the model of who I wanted to become. That is, rich and famous, with a winter home and laboratory in Florida.

I finally got the retirement home in Florida, and my laboratory is a "work in progress," but it wasn't until years later, in high school, that I even heard the name Nikola Tesla mentioned and later learned about the intense rivalry between the two men. My allegiance immediately changed from Edison to Tesla once I learned "the truth," although Tesla did appear to become quite insane in his later years. Genius often appears that way. Mu ha ha ha!

I didn't repeat my "experiment" with the selenium rectifiers, although I have received numerous unintentional electrical shocks since then. After Grandfather died, his Dodge was claimed by one of my cousins and transported to Bristol, TN. The last time I saw it, it was sitting on concrete blocks, wheels removed, in cousin's front yard, located at the foot of a tall hill his house was built on. Easy to see as you drove by it. I guess he must have considered this some kind of memorial to our grandfather. Or maybe he was just waiting for an offer he couldn't refuse.

Earlier this year, I or my wife left the exterior car lights on overnight and "drained" the car battery. Attempts to recharge the battery with my luggable battery charger/starter failed, although I was able to get the engine started. There was just no way the battery would accept a charge. Voltmeter measurements indicated a shorted cell. I researched a Chinese import available from Autozone and replaced the battery, avoiding "sticker shock" by finding the price online, but still not liking the cost. The failed battery was a replacement purchased at Autozone several years ago, long out of warranty. This may have been the third of fourth battery this car has had since it was manufactured in 2002. [Edit: In an earlier post I mistakenly said my truck and station wagon were vintage 2008.] The car now has more than 200,000 miles on the odometer, is beginning to show some rust, and will probably be replaced this year or next year. I drove an earlier vintage of the same model (we like Ford Taurus station wagons) until the front wheels literally fell off one day in a parking lot, spilling large steel ball bearings everywhere. Still, it doesn't pay to skimp when replacing the battery. No need to go overboard either, but we have had "good luck" with Autozone car batteries.
 
Excellent exposition, young man! I'm probably on 100 or so bulletin boards and am well accustomed to skipping long-winded posts, but your last is well written, extremely informative and kept my attention.

One thing you didn't mention about stone age motoring was the occasional need to hand crank a vehicle. Man, that was hard work. And sometimes dangerous if it 'kicked back'. Like, broken or cracked wrists weren't uncommon.
I built my first home at 24, after normal working hours and on weekends. An uncle gave me (well, cheaply sold me) an elderly Standard Vanguard, which though decrepit, was a great work horse. The 4-cylinder engine was apparently a Fordson tractor motor and, coupled with the weight of the vehicle, it'd go anywhere. Anyway, it wasn't uncommon for me to arrive on the building site at about 5:30, having put in a full day as a carpenter for another building contractor, then spend 5 - 6 hours working on the house, then emerge, exhausted to return home, to find the Van had a flat battery and needed cranking.

Re my statement that you and Bob quoted (Which got me thinking about a simple way of directly using mains power as a jumpstarter. Which is obviously not possible, right now, anyway.) you'll note that I qualified 'way' with 'simple', and that also meant 'inexpensive'. Obviously 'simple and inexpensive' isn't possible at this time.

It's OK - I get it...Now :) And this was all I really needed to know. However, thanks to young Mr.Evans, my knowledge of things-battery has increased enormously.

By the way, Bob, there's no way my 2005 2.4l Toyota Camry would come to life after a 30 min charge. The battery was still incapable of cranking the engine after 3 hours of charging, but it DID start after 5 hours. The battery then showed 11v, incidentally. It wasn't until I asked the question on a local board that I realized that this was still way too low for battery health and I then charged it for another 22 hours, by which time it came up to 13.2v, which I'm told is reasonable.

And the tiny battery (which is REALLY decrepit) in my 87 Toyota has also responded to a long charge. So it can be driven to the wrecker's yard, instead of towed.

BTW, regarding my battery charger. I hate to admit to the exalted company on this board, but I inherited this gizmo from my late father, so it's probably around 40 years old. Perhaps it's time to splash out on a new device, but like Mr.1944, I'm reluctant to spend our less then adequate pension money on 'non' essentials ;)
 
By the way, Bob, there's no way my 2005 2.4l Toyota Camry would come to life after a 30 min charge. The battery was still incapable of cranking the engine after 3 hours of charging, but it DID start after 5 hours. The battery then showed 11v, incidentally. It wasn't until I asked the question on a local board that I realized that this was still way too low for battery health and I then charged it for another 22 hours, by which time it came up to 13.2v, which I'm told is reasonable.
That must be a pretty low current charger. I have a 10A, which is still pretty low, and it has always charged enough in about 30 min to start the car once, then I drive around to charge it some more. Or maybe my battery has never gotten as low as yours does.

Bob
 
Bob, I'd never thought to look closely at the charger until now.
It was built by Carlton Manufacturing in Christchurch, New Zealand, I'm guessing circa 1970s.
On the front it says '2A'. Ay Caramba! Not exactly nuclear, is it?
 
One thing you didn't mention about stone age motoring was the occasional need to hand crank a vehicle. Man, that was hard work. And sometimes dangerous if it 'kicked back'. Like, broken or cracked wrists weren't uncommon.
;)

Obviously you were never taught the correct method to avoid just exactly that.
 
Well, actually, I was taught the correct method. If you re-read my post you'll see I didn't say that I was injured in this way, only that this type of injury wasn't uncommon.
 
The simplest way to jump start a car ,long forgotten by now:

The hand crank see here.

Car manufactures can provide it easily if they wanted to ,but they obviously don't.
It is practically fail safe.

On the issue of electric cars:

1.It is obviously in the near future for reasonable prices.
2.The charging time would be almost eliminated (down to a minutes).

The technology is already available in smart phones quick charge.
Read about it here
 
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On the issue of electric cars:

1.It is obviously in the near future for reasonable prices.
This is dependent on the (false) belief in MMGW and the 'evils' of fossil fuels. Once the issue has been resolved the market forces will re-assert themselves and the cheapest and most convenient methods for transport will prevail.

Too much of the worlds economy is driven by oil and there's absolutely no point in making electric cars as a vanity project to 'save the world' if 80% of the rest of the world will be using fossil fuels.....

I see no reason, financially or politically (certainly environmentally) why fossil fuels can't continue to be used and a move to LPG would certainly help given its abundance and (for those that really care) low CO2 output.

Whilst electric vehicles have their (limited) advantages the greatest issue is the lack of infrastructure to support them - fast recharging (potentially resolvable), distributed charging points, home charging (how do those living in hi-rise or apartments run a lead out to them?), national capacity (most countries fail this requirement by a long way) etc etc. Given the state of many economies I fore see a return to fossil fuels rather than a change to electric cars.
 
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