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Capacitance value for PIC crystal

J

John Devereux

Jan Panteltje said:
No no, the small disk ceramics of a few pF drift a lot.

Oh, you mean those things with the wires, poking through holes in the
board! Like they used in olden times?
 
R

Robert Macy

For most of my projects I use either a 14.7456 MHz crystal (57600*256) or
20.000 MHz (for USB 96 MHz 24*f/5). The 20 MHz crystal I am using specifies
a 20 pF parallel load, but my boards have 12 pF capacitors. I just noticed
this and I think the value had been selected for a previous brand of
crystal, but the oscillator frequencies measure pretty close to the ideal
value, as follows for five boards:

Board 1: 20.00258 +0.013% 130PPM
Board 2: 20.00039 +0.002%  20PPM
Board 3: 20.00068 +0.003%  30PPM
Board 4: 20.00085 +0.004%  40PPM
Board 5: 20.00073 +0.004%  40PPM

My specification is 0.02%, or 200 PPM, so all are within spec, but perhaps
with the 20 pF capacitors the frequency will be much closer and variation
will be positive and negative. But the application notes I found seem a bit
confusing as to the correct way to figure the load capacitance:

http://www.statek.com/pdf/tn33.pdfh...scilent.com/spec_pages/PNDescrpt/Load_Cap.htm

It seems that the capacitance is determined by:

CL = (CL1*CL2)/(CL1+CL2)+CS

Where CL1 and CL2 are the load capacitors and CS is the stray capacitance,
generally figured about 5 pF. So with my 12 pF capacitors the actual CL = 11
pF and with 20 pF capacitors CL = 15 pF and with 47 pF capacitors (as I
think I used at one time), CL = 28.5 pF. The ideal value appears to be 30
pF. I don't know the actual stray capacitance, but it is a double sided
board with 0805 SMT capacitors and a PIC18F4455 microcontroller in a TQFP-44
package. It has a value of 15 pF or the OSC2 pin but this is characterized
for external clock drive into OSC1.

I think the 12 pF capacitors are OK but I think I will try changing to 20pF
and see if the frequency comes in closer. The crystal itself is rated 30 PPM
and 100 PPM over the temperature range. Except for board #1, I'm just about
there.

But the CL formula seems a bit strange. Usually, when I see product over
sum, its square root is taken, as for parallel resistors. And if one of the
capacitors is zero, the other apparently has no effect, and that just seems
wrong.

Paul

is it possible to 'pull' those crystals 1kHz with only 8pF? probably
not.
What does LTspice show?
 
R

rickman

Another consideration is the phase delay introduced by the gates internal to the PIC. If these are running at say 10ns, that is 10/50 x 360=72o in addition to the 180o inversion. The Pierce allows for 90o from the crystal and points forward, so with the additional 72o, that leaves just 18o shift from the crystal. As the PIC gate Tpd moves around with temperature ( a minuscule amount), so does the phase shift across the crystal, and so does the loop frequency. If you model the crystal as series LC , all paralleled with load C, with assumed Q and look at phase versus delta-f/fo, that is chnage in phase as a function of ratio of frequency perturbation to resonant frequency ( the most popular plot), that will give an idea of how the oscillator loop frequency pulls with its phase shift.
I think Co in that manufacturer's pulling equation is also called header capacitance, or the net capacitance between the metalization of the crystal and the conductive housing.

They often claim C0 is due to the case, etc, but the source is
irrelevant. The values are part of a model that seems to work fairly
well regardless of exactly where it comes from.

I seem to recall that one of the two capacitances, the "motional"
capacitance IIRC, is very small, typically in the fF range. So that
might be C1. Assuming it is 27 pF is likely a major source of error.
Some crystal makers give all the data needed to verify that you are
designing the oscillator correctly, but many don't.
 
R

rickman

in message



The ECS crystals I'm using are 100 PPM over -40 to +85 C, with initial
tolerance of 30 PPM. Not bad for less than a dollar:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/122/hc-49usx-dn-16344.pdf

You can get them with as little as 10 PPM tolerance and stability, for
about $3 each:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/122/ecx-32-6206.pdf

And these are impressive for about $0.40:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMsBj6bBr9Q9aWDZfF25lWfiUcdswAjCEnw=

Just remember that the various frequency errors are additive including
the aging spec which is often the worst one of the bunch considered over
a few years.
 
R

rickman

No no, the small disk ceramics of a few pF drift a lot.

That's like saying, cars go really slow, you know, the ones with wheels
on all four corners. Do you have any idea of the type of cap on the
inside?
 
R

rickman

is it possible to 'pull' those crystals 1kHz with only 8pF? probably
not.
What does LTspice show?

Good luck on that. I don't think there are any good LTspice models for
crystals... at least not the ones I wanted to simulate. I think they
just tell you to construct a cap model using the crystal parameters
which most crystal makers don't provide. A model is only as good as the
data.

I'd say a test is worth a lot more than a simulation in this case.
 
F

Fred Abse

Good luck on that. I don't think there are any good LTspice models for
crystals... at least not the ones I wanted to simulate. I think they
just tell you to construct a cap model using the crystal parameters
which most crystal makers don't provide. A model is only as good as the
data.

Roll your own. A combination of capacitance, inductance, and resistance.
What else do you need?

If you have insufficient data - measure...
 
R

Robert Macy

Good luck on that.  I don't think there are any good LTspice models for
crystals... at least not the ones I wanted to simulate.  I think they
just tell you to construct a cap model using the crystal parameters
which most crystal makers don't provide.  A model is only as good as the
data.

I'd say a test is worth a lot more than a simulation in this case.

I once got 'bit' by cheap suppliers that produced poorly ground
crystals. talk about spurious oscillation frequencies! more than 1
1/2% off sometimes. If you could get them to oscillate at the 'right'
freq they were fine, somewhat.

I liked simulation to show what could happen during Production with
full ranges of tolerances, and then redesign to be able to absorb
anything the vendors sent, well almost.

Always asked the Engineers, SAY what you're going to do, DO what you
said you'd do, and then PROVE you did it. THEN designs woud smoothly
transition into Production.

found them!

these models are based upon lower frequency crystal models included in
the MicroSim's Library for Crystals representing AT cut

with the inforrmative header:
* Release date: September 1987

* The parameters in this model library were derived from:
*
* Quartz-crystal timing accuracy
* Electonic Design 2, January 19, 1976; pp. 74-79
*
* and:
*
* Electronics Designers' Handbook, Second Edition
* edited by L.J. Giacoletto
* McGraw-Hill Book Co., 1977, pp. 16-16 to 16-31

* Example use: X3 3 4 QZ32768

* Notes:
* 1) Temperature variation of resonant frequency for properly cut
* crystals is quadratic. The coefficient depends on the cut used
* and is implemented in these subcircuits by giving the equivalent
* inductor a temperature coefficient. The AT cut is an exception,
* and has a cubic temperature dependence which is not included in
* these models.
* 2) The values of lqz, cs, and cp do not vary much from one crystal
* to the next. The value of rqz, however, can vary as much as a
* factor of 2 up or down. So the crystal's Q can vary over a
* range of 4 to 1.
* 3) Parallel resonant crystals can be tuned slightly by attaching an
* external capacitor in parallel with the crystal. The crystal's
* frequency is built assuming a value of the external capacitor,
* called the "calibration capacitance". Its value is noted in
* the comment at the head of each parallel resonant crystal model.
and includes this one:
* 10Mhz frequency standard, AT cut, parallel resonant, Q=25000
* calibration capacitance = 50pf
..subckt QZP10MEG 1 2
*
lqz 1 11 2.54647909e-003
cs 11 12 9.96041181e-014
rqz 12 2 6.4
cp 1 2 2.49010295e-011
..ends




the following models I created based upon some samples sent to a
friend of mine:

* 20MHz Ethernet crystal for parallel operation
* #1 Crystal
*
* 20Mhz frequency standard, unknown cut, parallel resonant, Q=??
* calibration capacitance = ?? 50pf
*
..SUBCKT QZP20A 1 2
*
LQZ 1 11 3.33181E-03
CS 11 12 19.0069E-15
RQZ 12 2 6.45805
CP 1 2 4.65668E-12
..ENDS
* #2 Crystal
*
* 20Mhz frequency standard, unknown cut, parallel resonant, Q=??
* calibration capacitance = ?? 50pf
*
..SUBCKT QZP20B 1 2
*
LQZ 1 11 3.26998E-03
CS 11 12 19.3664E-15
RQZ 12 2 7.38786
CP 1 2 4.59108E-12
..ENDS
 
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