J
John Devereux
Jan Panteltje said:No no, the small disk ceramics of a few pF drift a lot.
Oh, you mean those things with the wires, poking through holes in the
board! Like they used in olden times?
Jan Panteltje said:No no, the small disk ceramics of a few pF drift a lot.
For most of my projects I use either a 14.7456 MHz crystal (57600*256) or
20.000 MHz (for USB 96 MHz 24*f/5). The 20 MHz crystal I am using specifies
a 20 pF parallel load, but my boards have 12 pF capacitors. I just noticed
this and I think the value had been selected for a previous brand of
crystal, but the oscillator frequencies measure pretty close to the ideal
value, as follows for five boards:
Board 1: 20.00258 +0.013% 130PPM
Board 2: 20.00039 +0.002% 20PPM
Board 3: 20.00068 +0.003% 30PPM
Board 4: 20.00085 +0.004% 40PPM
Board 5: 20.00073 +0.004% 40PPM
My specification is 0.02%, or 200 PPM, so all are within spec, but perhaps
with the 20 pF capacitors the frequency will be much closer and variation
will be positive and negative. But the application notes I found seem a bit
confusing as to the correct way to figure the load capacitance:
http://www.statek.com/pdf/tn33.pdfh...scilent.com/spec_pages/PNDescrpt/Load_Cap.htm
It seems that the capacitance is determined by:
CL = (CL1*CL2)/(CL1+CL2)+CS
Where CL1 and CL2 are the load capacitors and CS is the stray capacitance,
generally figured about 5 pF. So with my 12 pF capacitors the actual CL = 11
pF and with 20 pF capacitors CL = 15 pF and with 47 pF capacitors (as I
think I used at one time), CL = 28.5 pF. The ideal value appears to be 30
pF. I don't know the actual stray capacitance, but it is a double sided
board with 0805 SMT capacitors and a PIC18F4455 microcontroller in a TQFP-44
package. It has a value of 15 pF or the OSC2 pin but this is characterized
for external clock drive into OSC1.
I think the 12 pF capacitors are OK but I think I will try changing to 20pF
and see if the frequency comes in closer. The crystal itself is rated 30 PPM
and 100 PPM over the temperature range. Except for board #1, I'm just about
there.
But the CL formula seems a bit strange. Usually, when I see product over
sum, its square root is taken, as for parallel resistors. And if one of the
capacitors is zero, the other apparently has no effect, and that just seems
wrong.
Paul
Another consideration is the phase delay introduced by the gates internal to the PIC. If these are running at say 10ns, that is 10/50 x 360=72o in addition to the 180o inversion. The Pierce allows for 90o from the crystal and points forward, so with the additional 72o, that leaves just 18o shift from the crystal. As the PIC gate Tpd moves around with temperature ( a minuscule amount), so does the phase shift across the crystal, and so does the loop frequency. If you model the crystal as series LC , all paralleled with load C, with assumed Q and look at phase versus delta-f/fo, that is chnage in phase as a function of ratio of frequency perturbation to resonant frequency ( the most popular plot), that will give an idea of how the oscillator loop frequency pulls with its phase shift.
I think Co in that manufacturer's pulling equation is also called header capacitance, or the net capacitance between the metalization of the crystal and the conductive housing.
in message
The ECS crystals I'm using are 100 PPM over -40 to +85 C, with initial
tolerance of 30 PPM. Not bad for less than a dollar:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/122/hc-49usx-dn-16344.pdf
You can get them with as little as 10 PPM tolerance and stability, for
about $3 each:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/122/ecx-32-6206.pdf
And these are impressive for about $0.40:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...=sGAEpiMZZMsBj6bBr9Q9aWDZfF25lWfiUcdswAjCEnw=
No no, the small disk ceramics of a few pF drift a lot.
is it possible to 'pull' those crystals 1kHz with only 8pF? probably
not.
What does LTspice show?
Good luck on that. I don't think there are any good LTspice models for
crystals... at least not the ones I wanted to simulate. I think they
just tell you to construct a cap model using the crystal parameters
which most crystal makers don't provide. A model is only as good as the
data.
Good luck on that. I don't think there are any good LTspice models for
crystals... at least not the ones I wanted to simulate. I think they
just tell you to construct a cap model using the crystal parameters
which most crystal makers don't provide. A model is only as good as the
data.
I'd say a test is worth a lot more than a simulation in this case.