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California schools $120M solar project

A

amdx

Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district
spending $120 million to put solar energy in/on schools.
I did a Google search and can't find any info.
The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective,
so I'm curious.
Anybody know more about it?
Mike
 
P

PeterD

Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district
spending $120 million to put solar energy in/on schools.
I did a Google search and can't find any info.
The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective,
so I'm curious.
Anybody know more about it?
Mike

I believe they gave $119 million to Al Gore's efforts, and spent the
remaining million on publicity.
 
B

Bill

Actually quite "cost effective" for a school!

Many schools are "building rich" and "operating budget" poor. That is they
can easily find millions and millions of dollars to build new buildings -
and this money can only be spent on that.

Yet they can't find enough money to pay day to day expenses. They might have
trouble coming up with an extra $5 for blackboard chalk. Seriously!

So quite smart of them to use that construction money for something like
solar which would reduce their day to day expenses. Perhaps they will be
able to buy chalk in the future?


"amdx" wrote in message
 
S

Sylvia Else

The request was for information about what the California School
District has done, not an invitation for you to exercise your
incompetent imagination.

Admittedly, anyone asking for information about a political solar
energy initiative here should expect to get answers drawn from the
imagination of our resident right-wing nit-wits.

A quick google picked upt these initiatives

http://solar.coolerplanet.com/News/8110902-fremont-california-school-district-eyes-solar-panels.aspx

http://www.chevronenergy.com/case_studies/sjusd.asp

which do seem to involve expenditure of the order of $120M.

At the moment solar energy is only cost-effective if you figure in the
uncosted consequences of the CO2 emissions associated with fossil
fueled energy generation. Political initiatives that subsidise solar
energy generation are designed to fill in that gap, and often a bit
more beside, since increasing the market for solar energy
installations helps the economies of scale,

I don't believe in these alleged economies of scale. Solar panels
already represent a large industry. The economies of scale, such as they
are, have already been obtained.

Sylvia.
 
A

amdx

Robert Baer said:
Since when does a government institution have to be sane or spend
taxpayer money effectively?

That thought did come to mind. I'm hopeful that we (the people) are taking
the power that the constitution says we have and telling our reps it's time
to cut the spending. When our reps stop having town meetings because
the people are angry, that is a change.
November is coming, please support candidates that believe in the ideas
that provided a great standard of living in 200 years.
Limited government, freedom, liberty and property rights.
Mike
That property rights is a getting to be big. Getting so you can't dig a hole
on
your own property and in PC Fl. It's is a $1000 fine to cut down a pine tree
over a certain diameter, on YOUR* property.
Government and the environmentalist are out of control.

* If you can call it yours, try not paying that rent.
Also known as property tax.
end of rant.
 
V

vaughn

Sylvia Else said:
I don't believe in these alleged economies of scale. Solar panels already
represent a large industry. The economies of scale, such as they are, have
already been obtained.

Not so, especially not so at the consumer level. At the consumer level PV
panels remain a nitch product, so lack of retail competition and huge shipping
costs because of a lack of any local distribution channel presents significant
barriers.

Vaughn
 
N

nospam

amdx said:
Yesterday I heard a radio story about the California School district
spending $120 million to put solar energy in/on schools.
I did a Google search and can't find any info.
The numbers I heard didn't seem cost effective,

Depends on what value you place on brainwashing children.

They put windmills on schools which won't generate enough electricity to
cover maintenance costs never mind installation but the children get to see
a big eco green tree hugging bollocks symbol every day......
 
A

amdx

MooseFET said:
It is a NIMBY problem. Everyone wants the government to cut spending
but not on the things they care about. They want more spending on
things in their area. You never see protesters showing up in great
numbers at a ribbon cutting.



A bunch of fake outrage stopped the meetings. Protesters who claimed
to be just average folks but turned out to be party officials made the
meetings stop. This did nothing to reduce spending. It just cut off
communication with the public. It added noise an no signal. The reps
know that those folks yelling
at the meetings were bussed in for the purpose.



I think your wrong!
The producers are very angry at government overspending.
But we have to many sucking the tit probably don't care.
give me give me.


The right to act and speak is more fundamental than the right to own.
This is why there is no right to own another person.


Apples and oranges.
Mike
 
V

vaughn

Joerg said:
That is still $5.00 per watt, and then you STILL have to pay for shipping.
There are far better deals to be had, but shipping can be a deal killer.(See
http://sunelec.com/ )

My point was that you can probably find several places within driving distance
to buy (say) roofing materials, but you will be lucky to find even one place
that stocks a variety of PV panels. That one place will have no completion, so
no reason to offer you the best deal. When you buy a heavy/bulky item from a
local vender, it has likely arrived by the pallet load via a bulk shipper. Then
you just pick it up and take it home, or pay a small amount to have your order
delivered the "last mile".. When you buy that same heavy/bulky item from a
remote retailer, they have to custom pack it, and then send you your order via
an expensive retail shipper. That huge expense at the end of the distribution
chain KILLS any economy of scale that may have occurred earlier. The consumer
will rarely get a fair shake until an item truly becomes part of the mass
market.

Vaughn
 
M

Martin Brown

Some element of price gouging unless they are fancy ones.
Much better deals to be had:

http://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-39110-123-Watt-High-Efficiency-Polycrystalline/dp/B000MS8SHM


But I guess schools must buy at a union shop and use union labor to
install, so ...

$4/W is about where it starts to get interesting. But PV is pretty much
a none starter economically unless you get some kind of install grant
and a ludicrous price for the electricity generated. And yes there are
fraudsters "generating" way more "solar" electricity than the PV array
they installed could possibly manage (even on cloudy days). It took the
suits in charge of the green refunds a while to catch on...

One thing I will say was that I was surprised how well they did on on a
cold clear winters day in the UK. The cold more or less compensated for
the low angle sun and the array managed nearly 50% of rated output.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
T

tm

Harbor Freight sells several panels & systems. They do mail order and
have a lot of retail stores in the US.

<http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?category=&q=...>

Seriously, would you trust a Harbor Freight solar cell? I don't buy
anything from that store that needs to plug into the mains.

----------
George W. Bush had an honorable discharge and proved to be the dumbest
**** ever to hold a political office. 'nuff said for your sig.


UNTIL Obama!
 
V

vaughn

Michael A. Terrell said:
That's your choice. Buy whatever turns your crank. I have several
power tools I bought there, and they do exactly what I bought them to
do. Several work better than the Craftsman crap they replaced. They
should change their name to Crapsman.

Suit yourself! I am happy to have a Harbor Freight near me, but I recognize
that they sell mostly crap. Fortunately; for light duty and occasional use,
crap is sometimes good enough.

I have seen their PV panels and decided to taka a pass in favor of a much better
quality panel.

Vaughn
 
D

Don Klipstein

OUCH! the larger panels there are 6-8 dollars a watt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Insolation.png :

It appears to me that Philadelphia gets year-round-average insolation
of 175 watts, at least 170 per square meter. Compare that to the 1 KW
per square meter that I have some impression that solar cell arrays are
rated at...

That sounds to me like 34-47 dollars per watt in Philadelphia, if the
panels are laid horizontally.

I am guesstimating that by making them facing 40 degrees south of zenith
(towards "high noon" sun on days of the equinoxes), an improvement of 40%
of the 30.5% high-noon-equinox improvement would be achieved on
year-round-average. Maybe tilt them to face 37-38 degrees south of zenith
because the sun is up and out more in the spring and summer than in the
fall and winter. Maybe tilt them to face 2-3 degrees north of the
celestial equator and 7.5 degrees east of "high noon meridian" to take
advantage of the fact that on average during daytime there are more clouds
after noon than before. (I am aware of "morning fog / foggy low cloud"
exceptions to this "general rule"). At this rate, I expect about a 15%
improvement by optimizing how the solar panels are aimed. Without further
optimization to motorize them and get them to track the sun.

So, I see good opportunity of a Philadelphian to get the cost down to
$29.50-$41 per watt.

Considering that a Philadelphian pays nowadays about 14.5 cents per KWH
of electricity at "residential rate", excluding the surcharge for
consumption past 750 KWH (I hope I got that right, too lazy at this
moment to dig out a recent electric bill) per month during a defined air
conditioning season.

At this rate, even a Philadelphian who wears nice cool summer dresses in
the house and uses fans rather than air conditioners and tolerates
subtropical to often-worse-hot weather well and frets more about winter
than summer and who lives in a rowhouse (good for stealing some climate
control from any more-climate-control-needy next-door neighbors) would
have a $29.50-41-per-watt solar panel paying for itself in 41 / .000145
hours, which works out to...

About 23-32 years, assuming inflation in electricity cost is the same as
inflation of cost of cost of whatever else a homemaker has to pay. If one
does all maintenance required and in the likely event the solar panel and
the likely-associated DC-AC inverter (at maybe 90% efficiency) keeps on
truckin', then it's 25-35 years to pay for itself, and 50-100 years to
double the invested money.
=====
Suppose sun tracking with at least one motor is deployed, at consumption
of 5% of the output of the solar panel. At that rate, I have liking for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Insolation.png

Philadelphia above atmosphere year-round-average appears to me to
achieve about 315-320 watts per square meter of insolation, while at
ground level appears to me to achieve 170-175 watts per square meter.
That makes me think "at this rate" that 1 KW per square meter of direct
sunlight is degraded to 530-555 watts per square meter of a solar panel
that tracks the sun, before loss from electrical power consumption of
devices to track the sun and before correction for maybe 40% of the time
there is significant cloud cover that at least mostly destroys
optimization of sun-tracking (as a "representative figure").

At this rate, I have a liking for 95% of 60% of the way from 175 to 320
watts per square meter to be divided by 175 watts per square meter...
42% improvement of rate of return, down to 70.3% as much time to get
money back to you - as in about 16-22.5 years to pay for itself, or about
32-45 years to double your money should you have no expense at maintaining
the system that long.
(If the system requires rechargeable batteries, plan on additional
expense because such bateries have a high rate of expiring in less than 32
or even 16 years.)

If you double your inflation-adjusted money in 16.6667 years, then the
annual rate of return is 3% above the effectively-actual inflation rate.

I seem to think that the total rate of returns of major stock index
funds, especially "total stock market" ones, have done better from 1970 to
now or would have if they were in operation according to their stated
rules should they have been in existence in 1970 - I would guess likely
even in UK, let alone USA! For that matter, fair chance even from the
roughly-1970 high to the 2009 low! (second-worst 39 years of USA stock
market - behind the 39 year stretch starting at or a bit before the 1929
high. I seem to think that stretch had USA total stock market outpacing
"official inflation" by 4-5% with reinvestment of dividends, minus the
~.3% annual expense ratio that a good index fund like Vanguard "Index
Total" should have and that Vanguard achieves.)
 
D

Don Klipstein

Seriously, would you trust a Harbor Freight solar cell? I don't buy
anything from that store that needs to plug into the mains.
UNTIL Obama!

Only arguably for one specific office of one of 2-3 brances and
3-to-often-4 levels of government where both level and branch exists and
where the office in question is one voted into by voters.

I seem to think that Philadelphia has elected some mayors that would
make the bumber of the 2 bushes look like an outright brainiac in
comparison. I even remember one November election between two that some
called "airhead vs. vacuum", and occaisionally as the one to choose which
of the two worst prior mayors of Philadelphia to put back into that
office.

Let alone elections for the 17 councilcritters (unicameral legislative
branch) for Philadelphia... Where 10 are elected from districts, and 7
are elected "at-large" (on citywide basis as opposed to representing a
district of the city), with Philly's city charter having an "affirmative
action program" to limit to 5 of these 7 being in the same political
party. Post-1949, Philadelphia has usually had 14-15 Democrats and 2-3
Republicans in their legislative branch of gubmint.

And it appears to me that most Philadelphia councilcritters leave office
by dying in office, retiring at a very old age, need to go to prison, or
due to racial change of a district that they have to be re-elected from.
And when the councilcritters worse than the mayor mismanage the
government of the city (despite a "strong mayor" city charter), their
constituents tend to blame the mayor.

=========

From before Civil War to sometime around or a bit before 1950, the
contentedly corrupted Philadelphians tended to employ stinky awful
Republican mayors. Then, they elected a good Democrat mayor, followed by
a fairly/somewhat good Democrat mayor, and after that to now sent to City
Hall Democrat mayors that wre/are at best were so-so (in my opinion) and
at worst (in my opinion) stank even more than the worst Republican mayor
that Philadelphia ever endured.

I seem to think that Philadelphians often elect and re-elect local
government officers worse than every President that USA ever had.
 
D

Don Klipstein

In <a02fbcd6-105c-4d96-b1bf-0edfefd91afb@z17g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>,
The school day is poorly scheduled to take advantage of any solar
energy. They start way too early in the day.

My experience in and near Philadelphia is that school days are centered
around noon or less than an hour before noon.

Keep in mind that on average, cloudiness is worse after noon than before
even in Philadelphia with their few days per year clouded by "morning fog"
or "morning foggy low clouds".
 
A

Ahem A Rivet's Shot

On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 17:18:57 -0700
Where'd you get that impression? Here's a typical module.

Probably from reading the specs and knowing about the typical
efficiency of PV cells. The output rating of PV cells is usually quoted
under "full sun" conditions of around 1000 W per sq. metre.

That's the electrical output of that panel, which given the normal
efficiency of panels like that (10-15%) means an insolation of around 1000 W
per sq. meter. Actually the specs for that panel claim 13.1% efficiency so
slightly over 1000 W per sq. metre is required to achieve that output.

Not so - those were pretty accurate calculations.

Of course if you want efficient use of solar energy then solar
thermal is the way to go - it's not too hard to get 70-80% of the
insolation energy available as usable heat.
 
Probably from reading the specs and knowing about the typical
efficiency of PV cells. The output rating of PV cells is usually quoted
under "full sun" conditions of around 1000 W per sq. metre.


That's the electrical output of that panel,

No kidding?
which given the normal
efficiency of panels like that (10-15%) means an insolation of around 1000 W
per sq. meter. Actually the specs for that panel claim 13.1% efficiency so
slightly over 1000 W per sq. metre is required to achieve that output.


Not so - those were pretty accurate calculations.

If Klipstein mounts one of the modules I referenced above in full sun
in Philly on a cool day and measures the output, he'll conclude that
it costs out at ~$2 per Watt, not the $30-$40 he managed to arrive at.
To avoid starting with worst case PV costs he could google "best price
PV". And he could skip even more GIGO by using HOMER or some such.
http://homerenergy.com/ Which would prevent erroneous assumptions such
as his 5% of production for tracking. Seriously? Try ~20Whrs per day,
which on a 1000W array in Philly might net out to ~.5% minus for the
motor, but >20% plus overall. PV economics aren't great, especially if
one is willing to ignore the unbilled-cost of grid energy and the
unsustainability of the billed cost. So those who seek to be negative
about the economics really don't need to exaggerate.

Wayne
 
M

Martin Brown

No kidding?


If Klipstein mounts one of the modules I referenced above in full sun
in Philly on a cool day and measures the output, he'll conclude that
it costs out at ~$2 per Watt, not the $30-$40 he managed to arrive at.

That is their price per peak output per watt installed and seems
unusually low. $4/W is still about the going rate and some are closer to
$8/W where you paying a premium for higher efficiency.

But unless you can arrange continuous sunlight the average output over
the year allowing for clouds and including diffuse light is something
like 1/8 to 1/10 of peak installed capacity. So his $30-40/W delivered
for use is basically in the right ballpark in the long term.

Operating at peak efficiency with a clear sky and normal incidence
sunlight then the array can achieve peak performance, but the rest of
the time it does not by a long way. And obviously at night it is idle.
motor, but>20% plus overall. PV economics aren't great, especially if
one is willing to ignore the unbilled-cost of grid energy and the
unsustainability of the billed cost. So those who seek to be negative
about the economics really don't need to exaggerate.

I think you just have to be clear about what measure you are using.

The PV array link you pointed at is the cheapest I have seen on offer -
has anyone here obtained one? Or are they vapourware?

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
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