Building from the ground up

[K. Jones]

Hello.

I've recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home on,
starting in about a year. I'm exploring the feasibility of building an
off-grid home.
The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and
Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees,
averaging about 20 feet in height. It's dead-calm in the middle of the lot,
even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees over
significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar,
and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel
powered generator for backup/supplement.

I'm not new to solar PV, or solar thermal. I currently have a 6 panel
Norsun thermal system that I intend to take with me (they're not currently
"permanently" setup, and it's mostly dismantled in prep for moving to temp
quarters until the house is built). With the design&size of the house, I
expect the thermal panels to provide about 70% of my heating needs (I will
be likely be using a forced air system, hot water feeding a heat exchanger
in the air plenum, as I expect to have some sort of furnace
(oil/propane/whatever to be determined yet, though most likely oil, if using
diesel generator backup)).

What I have *zero* experience with is wind generators. I'd really like
to hear any comments / suggestions / criticism from current/past
owners/users of wind generators.
I currently have no idea of wind availability at the site, so I've purchased
an anemometer with very rudimentary data storage, which I'll be mounting on
a 60 foot pole. I'll be able to collect data for about 9 months before I
actually begin to build, so hopefully I'll have some idea of the feasibility
of potential wind generation. The wind+diesel generation is planned for the
first part of the construction, to, well, supply power for the construction
of the house.

This is out in "the country", where I can hear my neighbor 1/4 mile down
the road cough on a calm, still, night. What kind of noise levels would I
be looking at for a smaller, one household, type system? Am I out of my
mind thinking about a forced air heating system with wind generation? What
do you consider reliable (mechanically) turbine/generator manufacturers?
Reliable charge controllers, inverters etc? If you could build your wind
generation system all over again, what would you do different?

I'd also like to hear from anyone who uses *small* diesel generators.
Has anyone collected any *real* data for quantity of fuel used per kWh
produced? I've done some theoretical projections/models, however, "real
world" data/experience would kick the crap outta any guestimated
efficiencies I plug into my spreadsheet.
(btw anyone done this with a VW 4-cylinder pre "tdi" diesel engine??).


Any and all comments, positive and negative, (except for the "isn't
economically feasible/smart to do if you have grid power nearby" type) are
most welcome...........I'm well aware how to calculate payback schedules, et
al, but that has very little to do with the drive behind my reasons for
wanting to do this.....it's for the engineering
challenge/keep-me-entertained/perverse-satisfaction/hobby kinda thing.

Thanks!

K. Jones

 

[K. Jones]

Hi Rex, thanks for your reply.

The Norsun is an older, evacuated flat-plate type of thermal panel. There
is a thin, "hollow", evacuated flat plate about 3-1/2 ft X 7-1/2ft under a
sheet of glass. The plate meets a header at the top, where the heat
exchange takes place. The idea is the refrigerant gas boils, travels up
towards the header, where it condenses on the header pipe carrying the
closed-loop fluid circulating between storage and the panel. Thus you only
have a small amount of glycol/water mix circulating through the system. One
"selling feature" touted was it as a "solar-diode", meaning that even if
your glycol pump ran all night, you wouldn't radiate your stored heat back
out the collector. I bought the system used, about 8 years ago, I don't
know how old this particular "technology" is.

The house is going to be 2 stories, with a full basement, "normal"
stick-framing. The floors are going to be a mix of carpets, wood, ceramics,
etc., so it really doesn't lend itself to an under-floor radiant heat type
system. I have been mulling over a zoned hydronic system, with individual
room thermostats. (many of the bedrooms will only be "occupied" a couple of
days a week). One of the reasons I like the forced air heat-exchanger
system, is (a) I already have all the equipment for such a set-up, and (b)
I've been fooling with my own absorption-type refrigeration for a few years,
and should I get a satisfactory working design, I'd like to incorporate it
into the house, but the forced air system isn't carved in stone.

Thanks,

K. Jones

 

[George Ghio]

Hello.

I've recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home on,
starting in about a year. I'm exploring the feasibility of building an
off-grid home.
The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and
Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees,
averaging about 20 feet in height. It's dead-calm in the middle of the lot,
even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees over
significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar,
and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel
powered generator for backup/supplement.

What is the max height the trees could reach? 20 Foot is not much of a
tree.

100 foot above that should be enough for consistant wing generation. Of
course that depends on terrain.

I'm not new to solar PV, or solar thermal. I currently have a 6 panel
Norsun thermal system that I intend to take with me (they're not currently
"permanently" setup, and it's mostly dismantled in prep for moving to temp
quarters until the house is built). With the design&size of the house, I
expect the thermal panels to provide about 70% of my heating needs (I will
be likely be using a forced air system, hot water feeding a heat exchanger
in the air plenum, as I expect to have some sort of furnace
(oil/propane/whatever to be determined yet, though most likely oil, if using
diesel generator backup)). Heat is heat as long as you can move it to where

it is needed

What I have *zero* experience with is wind generators. I'd really like
to hear any comments / suggestions / criticism from current/past
owners/users of wind generators.
I currently have no idea of wind availability at the site, so I've purchased
an anemometer with very rudimentary data storage, which I'll be mounting on
a 60 foot pole. I'll be able to collect data for about 9 months before I
actually begin to build, so hopefully I'll have some idea of the feasibility
of potential wind generation. The wind+diesel generation is planned for the
first part of the construction, to, well, supply power for the construction
of the house.

Ok add another 60 foot to your pole and you will get up to where the
consistant and smooth airflow is.

This is out in "the country", where I can hear my neighbor 1/4 mile down
the road cough on a calm, still, night. What kind of noise levels would I
be looking at for a smaller, one household, type system? Am I out of my
mind thinking about a forced air heating system with wind generation? What
do you consider reliable (mechanically) turbine/generator manufacturers?
Reliable charge controllers, inverters etc? If you could build your wind
generation system all over again, what would you do different?

I think that your neighbor may learn to not like you very much.

I'd also like to hear from anyone who uses *small* diesel generators.
Has anyone collected any *real* data for quantity of fuel used per kWh
produced? I've done some theoretical projections/models, however, "real
world" data/experience would kick the crap outta any guestimated
efficiencies I plug into my spreadsheet.
(btw anyone done this with a VW 4-cylinder pre "tdi" diesel engine??).

lot of motor for a simple genset to be used for a single house.

Any and all comments, positive and negative, (except for the "isn't
economically feasible/smart to do if you have grid power nearby" type) are
most welcome...........I'm well aware how to calculate payback schedules, et
al, but that has very little to do with the drive behind my reasons for
wanting to do this.....it's for the engineering
challenge/keep-me-entertained/perverse-satisfaction/hobby kinda thing.

If your property is in an area supplied by the grid and made up of 1
acre lots then the question of economic feasibility should also take
into consideration the possibilty of law suits.

What you want to do can be done. The trick is to do it without being a
thorn in the side of your potential neighbors. I can here my neighbors
genset on an average night. He is 2Km away and his gen set is not all
that noisy. Still I did not move here to listen to it nor do I enjoy it.

The money he has spent on fuel over the last few years would have bought
him a good solar system.

As for your;

it's for the engineering
challenge/keep-me-entertained/perverse-satisfaction/hobby kinda thing.

the challenge will be doing what you want without getting lynched.

Still and all everyone needs a hobby. Have fun.

George

 

[John Phillips]

Hello.

I've recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home on,
starting in about a year. I'm exploring the feasibility of building an
off-grid home.
The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and
Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees,
averaging about 20 feet in height. It's dead-calm in the middle of the lot,
even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees over
significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar,
and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel
powered generator for backup/supplement.

K. Jones

You appear to have money to burn. I would guess that to become totally
grid sufficient in a 2500 square foot home with solar, wind generation
and auto-starting fuel driven generators would cost on the order of
$50,000 in American currency. You will also incur routine maintenance
expenses in addition to fuel charges and may have major equipment
failures as well.

I would burn the money in $1.00 bill increments to maximize the
heating value if they are still available in Canada. If not, a quick
trip to the US will get you a bundle of paper for Loonies.

I live across the Niagara River near Buffalo. Your electric rates are
probably 1/2 what mine are and natural gas is much cheaper which
further leads me to question your sanity.

If your lot is above and west of the Niagara Escarpment, then you
will have more wind than below it. Unfortunately, you are also on the
lee side of Lake Ontario. The sun will shine more often there than
Buffalo though that is not saying much.

I would guess is that a far better approach economically, although
still not fiscally sound unless you are trying to make a point, would
be to use Ontario Hydro, or whatever their local clone is now called
near your lot, for backup. I am sure also that the on and off
socialist power organization has net metering so you can get credit
for any excesses that your home systems produce. Natural gas would be
a better choice as a back up generator fuel source and you would
likely avoid road taxes that you may have to otherwise pay for diesel
fuel. It may not be available at your lot but propane would be my
second choice. Some larger generator have carburetors that can be
adjusted to burn all of the above.


Regards,

John Phillips

 

[K. Jones]

Hello.

My biggest concern with "earth tubes" is mold, but your idea of a heat
exchanger would solve that problem.
They would help in both summer, and winter here.

I hope to use plants and trees to help with summer cooling, like you said,
deciduous plants won't interfere much with winter heating.

When I first envisioned the project, I imagined using an eprom with a basic
language interpreter as the driver for the controls, but
now, PLC's are dirt cheap, and their programming is pretty simple nowadays.

I'm looking a wind as a means to providing electrical power, provide noise
and mechanical reliability isn't too much of an issue
(and provided I can get the local building department to play ball).

A "solar cooking ring" in the kitchen? I'd like to hear more about that!

When I envision under floor heating, all that comes to mind is a grid of
pipework buried within a concrete slab. I'm having a hard time envisioning
a
system with a wooden joist type construction.

Thanks!

K. Jones

 

[K. Jones]

K. Jones

You appear to have money to burn. I would guess that to become totally
grid sufficient in a 2500 square foot home with solar, wind generation
and auto-starting fuel driven generators would cost on the order of
$50,000 in American currency. You will also incur routine maintenance
expenses in addition to fuel charges and may have major equipment
failures as well.

I would burn the money in $1.00 bill increments to maximize the
heating value if they are still available in Canada. If not, a quick
trip to the US will get you a bundle of paper for Loonies.

Whereas I don't have "money to burn", I am willing to spend some to bring
this project to fruitation.
My costs are not going to be anywhere near your $50,000 USD. Each case is
unique.
The solar thermal for example. Apparently the system I have used to retail
for around $12,000CDN.
I bought it used, from an ex solar-installer, who was moving to a townhouse
where he wouldn't be allowed to use it.
I paid him $1,200CDN for it. With my heating bills in the 1950's house I
currently live in, that's a 4-month payback
the first winter.

I have a similiar opportunity for the diesel generator set-up
......and I'll be looking for a used wind generator setup.

This is part of the reason, I stated in the original post, I'm not
interested in a discussion regarding the "economics"
of what I propose to do. (a) I've discussed them on usenet/investigated
them -at length- for a number of years, (b) I
have several unique opportunities available to me, that will mitigate the
costs far, far, below someone buying the
components retail, and paying someone to install them, (c) weather or not
it's the "smartest money", is not germaine
to my reasons for wanting to embark on this project.
I've been the first one, on many occasions, to reply to a newbie that wants
to put a grid-independant PV system on
his roof in the middle of his subdivision house and get "free electricity"
for the rest of his life.......
Like I said, I'm aware of payback schedules (or lack thereof of them, as the
case may be), and although I will be
spending in the neighborhood of $15,000 to $20,000CDN for the entire setup,
that's not the point of the
exercise.
Exampe:
When it comes to finishing the interior, I intend to do all the millwork,
and the cabinetry, myself. Looking at the
expense of the tools I have in the shop, and the time I will spend doing it,
it would be far more economical to
go to home depot, buy pre-painted MDF moulding, and a kitchen in a box, and
be done with it. I don't have a
dozen people saying "that's not the cheapest or easiest way to do that",
people tend to understand the satisfaction
/hobby/ whatever angle of spending the cash, and the time, to do that. In
my case, this "off grid" project is, essentially,
the same thing. Utility rates have nothing to do with the motivation behind
the project.

I live across the Niagara River near Buffalo. Your electric rates are
probably 1/2 what mine are and natural gas is much cheaper which
further leads me to question your sanity.

We are "neighbors"! Our electric rates have gone through the roof lately,
with "surcharges" amounting to
darn near, and in some cases, more than half the bill. "The Grid", is
available where I am going to build,
Natural gas isn't. Pre-painted MDF molding is much cheaper than making my
own, am I insane for wanting
to make my own?

If your lot is above and west of the Niagara Escarpment, then you
will have more wind than below it. Unfortunately, you are also on the
lee side of Lake Ontario. The sun will shine more often there than
Buffalo though that is not saying much.

Good guessing. Yes, it is above and west of the Niagara Escarpement, though
not very far from it.

I would guess is that a far better approach economically, although
still not fiscally sound unless you are trying to make a point, would
be to use Ontario Hydro, or whatever their local clone is now called
near your lot, for backup.

It's "OPG (Ontario Power Generation) and "Hydro one" (for the grid
management) now.
I worked for a number of years for the "old" Ontario Hydro, running
coal-fired generators, 300MWe and 500MWe units...
....hmmm, maybe that *is* part of "the point" of the project! *grin*

I am sure also that the on and off
socialist power organization has net metering so you can get credit
for any excesses that your home systems produce. Natural gas would be
a better choice as a back up generator fuel source and you would
likely avoid road taxes that you may have to otherwise pay for diesel
fuel. It may not be available at your lot but propane would be my
second choice. Some larger generator have carburetors that can be
adjusted to burn all of the above.

I embarrased to admit, I don't know if we have net-metering or not.
I never really thought about it, as I don't intend to bring grid-service to
the lot.

Thanks,

K. Jones

 

[Anthony Matonak]

K. Jones wrote:
....

A "solar cooking ring" in the kitchen? I'd like to hear more about that!

I believe the "cooking ring" is a reference to an electric stove top.
I've envisioned a solar thermal stove top as well and, in fact, such
things have been built in the past.

The typical design used previously is to have a large parabolic tracking
mirror trough focusing sunlight on to a pipe. This pipe has oil pumped
through it and this hot oil gets stored in an insulated container which
may also contain some phase change material. Cooking top is a loop or
spiral of small diameter pipe through which the hot oil gets pumped when
you want to cook. It works but it's a little expensive and the hot oil
is a little hazardous.

The version I was envisioning would use a parabolic heliostat to focus,
through a small porthole, inside a thermal storage consisting of some
loosely stacked scrap steel encased in a well insulated box. Air would
be drawn out of this box to blow out of the cook top. I figured a
mirror around 10 feet square would likely suffice for the average home.
The disadvantage to this design is that the storage box and stove top
would work best if built together. I.e. box outside the kitchen on the
shady side of the house, stove on the inside wall facing the box. There
might also be issues with the steel rusting over time when this is
used in a humid location. Stainless steel might work better but then
it gets more expensive. Some folks suggested lead sealed in copper
pipes for the storage since it melts at just about the right temp.
I've a slight (and possibly illogical) aversion to using lead.

You can, of course, just use a heliostat mirror to focus light through
a window on to your cooking surface (typically from underneath, so you
don't go blind). This only works during sunny days.

When I envision under floor heating, all that comes to mind is a grid of
pipework buried within a concrete slab. I'm having a hard time envisioning
a
system with a wooden joist type construction.

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00028.asp

Anthony

 

[Paul E. Bennett]

Hello.

I've recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home
on,
starting in about a year. I'm exploring the feasibility of building an
off-grid home.
The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and
Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees,
averaging about 20 feet in height. It's dead-calm in the middle of the
lot, even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees
over
significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar,
and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel
powered generator for backup/supplement.

I'm not new to solar PV, or solar thermal. I currently have a 6 panel
Norsun thermal system that I intend to take with me (they're not currently
"permanently" setup, and it's mostly dismantled in prep for moving to temp
quarters until the house is built). With the design&size of the house, I
expect the thermal panels to provide about 70% of my heating needs (I will
be likely be using a forced air system, hot water feeding a heat exchanger
in the air plenum, as I expect to have some sort of furnace
(oil/propane/whatever to be determined yet, though most likely oil, if
using diesel generator backup)).

What I have *zero* experience with is wind generators. I'd really
like
to hear any comments / suggestions / criticism from current/past
owners/users of wind generators.
I currently have no idea of wind availability at the site, so I've
purchased an anemometer with very rudimentary data storage, which I'll be
mounting on
a 60 foot pole. I'll be able to collect data for about 9 months before I
actually begin to build, so hopefully I'll have some idea of the
feasibility
of potential wind generation. The wind+diesel generation is planned for
the first part of the construction, to, well, supply power for the
construction of the house.

This is out in "the country", where I can hear my neighbor 1/4 mile
down
the road cough on a calm, still, night. What kind of noise levels would I
be looking at for a smaller, one household, type system? Am I out of my
mind thinking about a forced air heating system with wind generation?
What do you consider reliable (mechanically) turbine/generator
manufacturers?
Reliable charge controllers, inverters etc? If you could build your wind
generation system all over again, what would you do different?

I'd also like to hear from anyone who uses *small* diesel generators.
Has anyone collected any *real* data for quantity of fuel used per kWh
produced? I've done some theoretical projections/models, however, "real
world" data/experience would kick the crap outta any guestimated
efficiencies I plug into my spreadsheet.
(btw anyone done this with a VW 4-cylinder pre "tdi" diesel engine??).


Any and all comments, positive and negative, (except for the "isn't
economically feasible/smart to do if you have grid power nearby" type) are
most welcome...........I'm well aware how to calculate payback schedules,
et al, but that has very little to do with the drive behind my reasons for
wanting to do this.....it's for the engineering
challenge/keep-me-entertained/perverse-satisfaction/hobby kinda thing.

Having read some of the other responses you have had I am surprised that
no-one has raised the potential energy source of your household wastes. You
will also probably have some potential in your surrounding trees (if they
are yours to cut (coppiceing rather than wholesale deforestation). This
will require an audit of the likely waste products your intended lifestyle
will produce (don't forget the sewerage). Burning this stuff at a high
enough temperature in a furnace and using the heat for a cooking range and
a Stirling powered generator instead of the diesel option may gain you more
and cost you less. It is, at least, worth a look. How good are you with the
practical side of things?

--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@a...>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972 .........NOW AVAILABLE:- HIDECS COURSE......
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 .... see http://www.feabhas.com for details.
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************

 

[Chris Torek]

When I envision under floor heating, all that comes to mind is a grid of
pipework buried within a concrete slab.

This *is* one method (plastic tubing in long U-shaped loops, usually,
rather than a grid), but:

I'm having a hard time envisioning a
system with a wooden joist type construction.

You just clip the tubing up against the subfloor.

Using mixing valves to moderate the temperatures, a single hydronic
heating system can feed tubes that go to all kinds of different
floor materials. It really is a nice way to provide heat.

 

[Lucky Strike]

seriously consider using a lot of thermal mass with your passive solar
house.

look into things like the blue max wall system and take it to the roof.

insulate well and use good quality doors and windows.

check out a book called "climactic building design".

Cheers,

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

You just clip the tubing up against the subfloor.

Using mixing valves to moderate the temperatures, a single hydronic
heating system can feed tubes that go to all kinds of different
floor materials. It really is a nice way to provide heat.

Another option...

I live in a trailer. ( 'They' hate it when you call it a trailer

So, retrofitting with floor heating would be a big job. You have to
consider how the insulation is hung under a 'trailer'.

What I've done over the last year is pick up electric baseboard heaters
at thrift shops and swap sales. I've got about 90 feet of heaters for
about ten bucks. There are two kinds of baseboard. One where the
resistance element is runs the length with aluminum fins. It is only
good for electrical heating. The other, (the ones I bought), have a
working fluid, antifreeze, and the heating is done with 3/4" copper
tubing with aluminum fins. I'm not from an eastern state, but I do
believe they use the same baseboard without the electric component and
where the home has a boiler. The reason they can be had so cheap here in
Arizona is that they only look like electric heaters to most folks. ( I
live at 7000 feet, hence the need for heating. )

I'm on the way to heating our home and the shop in the winter with a
wood fueled boiler outside. That's why the above. I've also planned for
phase change storage with paraffin. I'm figuring if the storage is
independent of the source, I can also utilize solar as an input next year.

At the least, I'll have the boiler heating the shop for next winter.
I'll post a page when it is done.

Best, Dan.

 

[George Ghio]

Hence the choice of a vehicle engine I take it. Although overkill,
they have extremely long life, have extensive noise reduction already
built in, and for all that are not expensive. Run them at little above
idle speed and they should have a long long long life, and be fairly
quiet too. Dont forget to have the option to use the hot water from
the cooling system, plus a heat exchanger on the exhaust to get more
heat out.


Regards, NT

Nothing against the engine. OTOH it better be quiet cause in his own
words:

This is out in "the country", where I can hear my neighbor 1/4 mile down
the road cough on a calm, still, night.

Know a guy had an injunction slapped on him for the same thing. His
genset, which was a nice quiet one in a building made of adobie with
sound deadining, had a complaint from a neighbor 1/2 a mile away. It
really is amazing how far sound will travel on a damp night.

George

 

[Comcast Newsgroups]

Hello.

I've recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home on,
starting in about a year. I'm exploring the feasibility of building an
off-grid home.

My immediate comment is "why off grid?" The biggest issue with virtually all
renewable energy systems for electrical power is storage during non peak
loads and then peak demand exceeding capacity. Batteries are themselves a
serious cost and environmental issue. The grid makes for an excellent
battery provided you can actually sell any power. With increasing efficiency
in lighting systems, the only significant steady loads come from motors for
pumps and air circulation. What is left are intermittent loads from such
items as washing machines, blow dryers, microwaves etc. These high
intermittent loads present a very large requirement on power inverters and
batteries. Batteries self discharge and the larger the battery, the greater
the rate of this energy drain. The self discharge of an auto sized battery
would power a high efficiency LED lamp and/or small fan continuously.
Another concern I have is your site. The things that make the site
attractive also make the site less than ideal for solar or wind energy.
Trees grow and as a result, direct sunlight times shrink. Wind generators
need to be quite a bit higher than these trees. This is a significant
maintenance issue that many would consider an eyesore. Keep in mind that
lightening generally seeks the closest (highest) object to strike. Emotional
dislike for utility companies does not make for sound energy or
environmental decisions.

 

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "K. Jones"

I'd also like to hear from anyone who uses *small* diesel generators.
Has anyone collected any *real* data for quantity of fuel used per kWh
produced? I've done some theoretical projections/models, however, "real
world" data/experience would kick the crap outta any guestimated
efficiencies I plug into my spreadsheet.
(btw anyone done this with a VW 4-cylinder pre "tdi" diesel engine??).

http://www.oldengine.org/members/jdunmyer/genset/

 

[K. Jones]

Thanks to everyone on the info about under floor heating.
I do plan on using engineered floor joists.
What material is the piping made of, and are there expansion joints, or 'U'
bends periodically along the piping?\
Do you use a room thermostats to control individual zones?

Thanks!

K. Jones

 

[K. Jones]

*smile*

George, thank you for your candor.

A bit more about the site. I appears it used to be a "Christmas tree" farm.
Keeping the trees trimmed back near the house isn't much of a problem.

There are neighbors on both sides of the lot, each would only be about
500-700 ft away from where the windmill/genset shed would be.

Getting the windmill into "clean air" through about a 200 deg arc isn't a
problem, the lot borders on cleared farm land, and the nearest hill/tree,
etc, anywhere from about E.N.E. through to about W.S.W would be several
thousands of feet away.

I was hoping to use the VW diesel motor for a backup genset, because (a)
it's already laying around my shop, doing nothing, and (b), I have lots of
parts for it, laying about the shop. (c) I can rebuild the injectors on
these things blind-folded, I know them well. It would be housed in an
insulated shed. I suppose the PLC could be set up so it would only run
during "daylight" hours, and I imagine the noise would be less objectionable
than that of some of the farm equipment that would operate within 100 ft. of
the other two houses, during the growing season. I would hope to fire it
somewhat infrequently. The windmill however, would run whenever the wind
blows, 24/7. Not having any experience with these things, I have no idea
what kind of sound level that would produce. I also enjoy quiet evenings,
and if it does produce appreciable noise, it kinda defeats the purpose of me
wanting a house out "in the country"!

It would also kinda ruin my day to spend several thousands of dollars on a
wind set-up, only to be forced to dismantle it by pissed-off neighbors.

Thanks,

K. Jones

George Ghio <[email protected]> wrote in message

 

[K. Jones]

I know I'm responding to my own post, but, well, please ignore my
questions....
..

The link supplied by Anthony Matonak (thank you, btw) didn't work when I
first tried it, but now that I've seen it, it pretty much has everything I
would want to know about under-floor heating.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00028.asp

Thanks everyone!

K. Jones

 

[Anthony Matonak]

Thanks to everyone on the info about under floor heating.
I do plan on using engineered floor joists.
What material is the piping made of, and are there expansion joints, or 'U'
bends periodically along the piping?\
Do you use a room thermostats to control individual zones?

....

You'll want to talk to various vendors to see what their
particular products are and how they work. Typically they
would use a kind of plastic tubing and this stuff doesn't
need expansion joints or ubends because it's fairly flexible.
A good system would use individual thermostats in each room
but that part of the design is up to you and your supplier.

Anthony

 

[K. Jones]

Thanks for the link Grimly, that pretty much covers exactly what I would
like to do. I've bookmarked the site, and it will certainly make the
fabrication of mine much easier!

K. Jones

 

[Dan Bloomquist]

*smile*

George, thank you for your candor.

A bit more about the site. I appears it used to be a "Christmas tree" farm.
Keeping the trees trimmed back near the house isn't much of a problem.

There are neighbors on both sides of the lot, each would only be about
500-700 ft away from where the windmill/genset shed would be.

Getting the windmill into "clean air" through about a 200 deg arc isn't a
problem, the lot borders on cleared farm land, and the nearest hill/tree,
etc, anywhere from about E.N.E. through to about W.S.W would be several
thousands of feet away.

I was hoping to use the VW diesel motor for a backup genset, because (a)
it's already laying around my shop, doing nothing, and (b), I have lots of
parts for it, laying about the shop.

If you can find a four pole alternator, and they are out there, you can
direct drive the thing from your diesel. I have a 20kw Onan that runs at
1800 rpm. They are pretty cheap used. I've seen 10kw units go for $1000.
Hardly worth the work to build one if you can get one at a good price.
If it has many hours, a set of rings and bearings can make it like new.

K. Jones

Best, Dan.