Builder prewire problems

[Karl]

I just moved in to a new home that came prewired for security. My last
home was prewired and trimmed out by myself and worked first time.

This deal however is driving me crazy! There are 15 windows and 3
doors home run. I only have 2 doors that open and close the loop
(using my multimeter beep feature) 12 windows are a closed circuit
without magnets and the remaining 3 are dead!

Too many to have been stapled closed right? So i am thinking they are
rigged so the company that prewired gets to put the alarm in.

Anybody have any ideas, i am fresh out.

Thanks in advance!

 

[R.H.Campbell]

Sir, you might want to check to see that each window is actually "home run"
back to the panel. Count the loops where they come together and they should
roughly approximate the number of points of contact, plus extras for the
keypad(s), smokes perhaps and sirens. If they are not "home run", then there
is likely problems with nails through the wiring at some point that is
shorting the one series loop closed. Did you check to see if you can
maintain / break continuity on the second pair in the cable (ie: red and
black) ? If everything is home run as it should be, perhaps the prewire was
so badly done that the drywallers have managed to run nails through all
those loops (although this seems highly unlikely short of direct
sabatoge....)

You might try toning the wire and see if there is any one spot somewhere
where all tones come together and stop after that. If so, there is likely a
junction point (hopefully not behind drywall),where some amateur installer
has cross connected things. Twelve of 15 loops closed does make one
suspicious....

Personally, I haven't heard of any company resorting to that sort of thing,
although some companies are notorious for "sweet heart" deals with the
builders keeping other firms out. And who knows, that may be someone's low
brow idea of a way to ensure the client comes back to them

R.H.Campbell
Home Security Metal Products
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
www.homemetal.com

 

[Norm Mugford]

Since the "pre-wire" was part of the builders package,
call the builder and have him get the wiring corrected.
Each wire should be tested by the installer. If you paid for
a pre-wire, demand a proper pre-wire from the builder.
If the installer refuses to fix what you have determined
to be a problem, the builder is still responsible for what you
purchased from him. Request a credit.
We do allot of builder work in this area (Central Florida) and
would be more than happy to verify all wiring is correct.
It reflects on us and the builder.
If the installer puts pressure on you to buy the system, (since
he may wrongly feel he is due that right) tell him that the work
history demonstrated so far is not what you consider complete.
When the problems are fixed, you'll consider his proposal.

Norm Mugford

 

[alarman]

Robert L. Bass wrote

Some companies prewire sensors to a hidden point and deliberately miswire
them so they won't work until their tech goes out to reconnect. This is not
a common practice but it does happen. If you have a "tone set" you can
trace the wiring through the walls to find the splice point.

In 22 years in this business, I have not seen that. There is nothing wrong
with the wiring, just an inexperienced DIY. See Doug's post.
js

 

[R.H.Campbell]

I have to admit, I am inclined to agree with you. In my 10 years in the
business, I have come upon it only once, and it was a deliberate attempt to
sabotage the installation for some reason. But I also had one real example
of sabotage by an installer who was angry with his company, and who
deliberately cut the prewiring behind the drywall.

Once the owner of the construction company started to charge back the
prewire company for the drywallers time to repair the holes needed to repair
the cut wiring, the problem disappeared.....(surprise ! surprise !....)

RHC

 

[Frank Olson]

Robert L. Bass wrote


In 22 years in this business, I have not seen that. There is nothing wrong
with the wiring, just an inexperienced DIY. See Doug's post.
js

Hmmm... You can find a "splice point" behind a wall with a tone set??
That's a new one on me... I can just see "Robert the Installer" attacking
the problem with a tone set and a drywall saw... "Nope... It's not here."
And the customer wonders why there's 12 neatly cut holes in his living
room... "No problem", remarks our intrepid Installer. "We'll put a wall
plate there and tell the wife it's a future speaker/telephone/network
location." )


--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
You can read the ASA FAQ at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm

 

[Jim Rojas]

I can find a broken wire inside a wall with a tone set.

A few years ago, I trimmed out a large prewired home. About 9 of the wires
going to the wiindows were cut. I marked each location, and cut a small hole
in the drywall. The wires were in fact cut by the insulation crew. The
builder then sent a crew to touch up the walls after I was done.

Jim Rojas

 

[Frank Olson]

I can find a broken wire inside a wall with a tone set.

A few years ago, I trimmed out a large prewired home. About 9 of the wires
going to the wiindows were cut. I marked each location, and cut a small
hole
in the drywall. The wires were in fact cut by the insulation crew. The
builder then sent a crew to touch up the walls after I was done.

Finding a broken wire with a tone set isn't a problem... What if the wire's
not "broken" at the "splice point" though?? My comment was directed at
"being able to find a splice point with a tone set"... *That's* the new one
on me... Robert will probably now respond with some "inanity" about my not
having "installed anything". I find these particular little "jabs" amusing
because it's obvious to everyone here that I have, with one exception of
course (strange isn't it that he's the same one that frequently posts he has
"27 years in the trade"?)...


--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
You can read the ASA FAQ at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm

 

[Frank Olson]

Yup. It's easy if you know anything about installing alarms. Olson has
never installed so it's understandable he has no idea how this is done.

How would you know what I've done?? Judging from the numerous erroneous
posts you've made (that have required "professional" correction), I'd say
you couldn't install a light bulb without a FAQ to go by... It's too bad
I'm "on the outs" with the Groupie Goofy Muderator or he'd have put in a
"good word" with the Goofy Webmaster and had all of them archived by now...
As it is, he's gonna have to do a Google...

To find a common splice point that's behind the drywall:

- Open the circuit at one of the sensors and track the wire in the normal
way.
- Repeat for several more sensors.
- Note where the several runs merge to a common track.

Uh-huh... and if the wires "merging in a common track" are all running
parallel for about ten feet, I guess the Basshole installer would be cutting
holes in the drywall every 16 inches until he actually "found" the splice...
Heh...

Often times when there is a splice point it will be found in the wall of a
closet, the attic or between the joists in the basement.

What planet do you live on??

You can probe the
wall inside a closet with a 1/4" hole and a stiff, bent wire and there
will
be no mess.

"Stiff bent wire"... yup... sounds like you (on Viagra)...

I recall one case many years ago when I was called upon to service a home
that had been "professionally" pre-wired. It was the rectory at a
Catholic
church in East Hartford, CT. The "professional" installer had wired all
of
the N.C. window sensors in the house in parallel. It would only trip if
every window was opened at the same time. It took me a few minutes to
figure out what had been done wrong. I drove to Security 21 Supply in
Milford, got a bunch of N.O. contacts and fixed the system.

And I'll bet they're really happy with a bunch of unsupervised contacts all
in a row... What a maroon. Ademco's been out with *addressible* contacts
for years... Of course since you only sold "Napco" the fact that you'd
never seen a 4140XM is understandable (note that I've not said you've
*never* installed)...

In this case the error was not deliberate; just the work of an
incompetent,
professional installer.

What makes an installer "professional", Robert??

Over the years I've repaired or replaced scores of
systems with similar or worse wiring flaws.

Most of them sold by your own company, I'm sure...

One or two of them have been
DIY jobs.

Uh-huh... which you went out to fix... That must be some "deal" you worked
out with the poor DIYer. Airfare from Sarasota thrown in... Or did you
just "drop-ship" yourself... )

The rest were all "professional" installations. Some of the
folks who like to fill this newsgroup with invective complain that they
don't believe I have much respect for installers, but (like with
everything
else) they're wrong. I have lots of respect for true professionals like
Bob
Campbell.

Heh.... Have you seen one of his installs?? Have you ever met him?? Or is
it that he's decided *not* to involve himself in the ongoing dispute most of
the professionals here have with you marketing your "online services"...

It's just the trash-talking dolts and incompetent, uncaring
"professionals" who get no respect from me.

Bingo!!



--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
You can read the ASA FAQ at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm

 

[jackcsg]

I hear ya. They wouldn't be building a home for me, period. In know the
drill though....

Jack

 

[Mark Leuck]

I have seen it where the prewire tech shorted all of the wires behind the
panel, we had to take out the return air vent to get at them, pretty devious
if you ask me

 

[Karl]

Guys i just finished the install (well a working system minus one
window and door) and came back to check the replies. Yes the prewire
was done with those plug thingies so i just pulled all 15 of them out
and soldered on the contact and resiliconed! Easy but unfortunately i
had already spent the 80 dollars on a tone generator and probe.

One window didn't work, the wire was cut by a nail or screw, so the
tone/probe came in useful to find the break. Not fixed that one yet or
the remaining door. The 3 doors had contacts but the one i am having
problems with has a short. I guess it was a tight squeeze getting the
contact in, the wire snagged and got bunched up. There is no excess or
if there is it is caught up. I will have to drill another hole in the
top of the door jamb instead of the side of it where it currently is.

Then its onward with the smokes, motion and glass break.

Fingers crossed i don't get any false alarms tonight, would rather
grab my gun on a false one than a real one though ;-)

Thanks for all your replies guys! Appreciate it!

Any DIYers reading this i recommend http://alarmsuperstore.com/ for
your hardware needs. Talk to Johnny.

 

[R.H.Campbell]

That's OK Jack if the builder will allow the homeowner to hire his own
prewire company. In our area, most of the builders have "sweet heart deals"
with one alarmco or another.....the alarmco prewires for $150, the builder
charges $350 to $500 to the home buyer. The homeowner has NO choice - if he
wants it prewired, it must be the builder's prewire company. If the consumer
continues to insist, they trot out all sorts of idiotic reasons why they
won't allow an independant on site, and force you to go through all sorts of
hoops that mean nothing. Bottom line, it's not worth the trouble, and they
know it....

So much for consumer choice....

RHC

 

[G. Morgan]

Virtually everything about installing fits that description, eh?

Boy fat-ass, when you come out of 'ignore' mode you won't shut up. I
thought your computer had to be off for Yom-Kippur, or does that
(Christian) half in you find that holiday too inconvenient?


Don't reply, I know the answer. You're of neither faith. You pretend
to be one or the other when you stand to gain something.

 

[Frank Olson]

Heh. Parallel contacts are not wired "all in a row," Olson. If you had
ever installed alarms you'd know that.

Heh... I guess I could say you've never seen a schematic for "normally
open" sensors, but I know you have... If you take a look inside a Notifier
5000 at the terminal wiring diagram (I'm using a fire alarm panel as an
"example" as normally open door contacts are seldom used these days). It
looks to me like they're "all in a row", Robert...

The job was over 25 years ago -- long before Ademco made an addressable
alarm.

Then that's understandable. You see you weren't clear on how long ago it
really was (in fact you made it sound like it was one of your more "recent"
installs).

In those days I sold Moose. The system I was servicing at the time was,
IIRC, an MPI-25. The first Napco product I used was an 8-track tape
dialer.

I'm almost positive I found one of those in an electrical closet in Edmonton
years ago (when I was working for a local independent). I seem to recall
the sucker still worked!!

Heh. At the time no one on earth had ever seen a 4140XM.
Touche.



How could I expect you to understand since you're neither?

How would you know??

Yep. One fellow in Bloomfield, CT, asked us to service his DIY system.
He
bought it at RatShak. I replaced it. A fireman from CT bought a system
from me, installed it and asked me afterward to come over and help him
with
it. The installation was functional though not very neat. I helped him
straighten out a few things and then programmed it for him.

That's much easier to "digest" than your previous statement. Details,
man... details!!

I've seen how he behaves in public. I've spoken with him on the phone a
few
times. I've spoken to others who've done business with him. I've also
seen
how you behave, spoken with you on the phone, etc. Only one person who I
spoke with ever worked around you and they indicated they were
unimpressed.

Really?? They worked "around" me?? Installing?? Servicing?? Are you
sure?? The name on my license is different from the one I use here (but
equally legitimate).

I feel safe in my judgment that Bob's a decent, honest guy and in my
assessment of his knowledge that he's competent. Likewise, I know (just
as
you do) that you're a complete fraud. You've never worked in the trade.
You know almost nothing about the products other than what you've read on
sales brochures and in this newsgroup. I also know (as you do) from your
ludicrous tales of heroics that you're a liar.

Any questions?

Uh-huh... Several.

1. What's the name on my license?

2. How do you *know* I've never worked in the trade? You said (in this
same post) that you spoke to someone that "worked around me". I assume that
individual is somehow associated with the alarm profession and not the
Burger King.
)

3. Why would you be "investigating" me, anyway? I don't quite understand
your "fixation" for me. Are you the "Usenet Police"?? If your interest in
more purient, I have to tell you I don't "swing" that way at all. And
unless you're planning on attending the next ISC West show, I sincerely
doubt we'll ever meet.

4. (This isn't a question.) I know a whole lot more about the products
than you. If I don't, I take the time to learn and don't post idiotic
nonsense like what you told an individual in CHA about the Visonic PowerMax.
I've yet to see you apologise for that bit of mis-information...

5. (No question here either.) As for "heroics", I wouldn't call falling
off a ladder particularily "heroic" (I thought it was pretty stupid
actually). I don't think practically "shitting myself" in an upside down
737 was one of my more "heroic" moments either...

Exactly, and that is precisely why you and I will never get along.

Where have I posted any "trash" about you?? Every lie you've ever told in
this forum is readily provable on Google. You've *yet* to prove I lied
about *anything* (other than posting comments from supposed "experts" you've
talked to and expressing some rather twisted personal opinions). Even the
nonsense you recently posted in CHA about *installing* alarm systems
professionally (for compensation) in CT for six years (1977 to 1983) without
any previous training, or an obvious license is beyond belief. I thought
you were smarter than that (and cared for your reputation more). Your "good
opinion" means nothing to me by the way. I come here to learn and to help
where I can. I have no "agenda" to speak of (in that I don't sell to anyone
in this group or in CHA). I also don't mislead people into thinking I know
more than everyone else here.


--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
You can read the ASA FAQ at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm

 

[Mersereau]

Yup. It's easy if you know anything about installing alarms. Olson has
never installed so it's understandable he has no idea how this is done.

I recall one case many years ago when I was called upon to service a home
that had been "professionally" pre-wired. It was the rectory at a Catholic
church in East Hartford, CT. The "professional" installer had wired all of
the N.C. window sensors in the house in parallel. It would only trip if
every window was opened at the same time. It took me a few minutes to
figure out what had been done wrong. I drove to Security 21 Supply in
Milford, got a bunch of N.O. contacts and fixed the system.

In this case the error was not deliberate; just the work of an incompetent,
professional installer.

<snip>

Sir, if you wan to trash talk other installers, it would help if you
knew what you were talking about

N.C. contacts are wired in parallel and N.O. contacts are wired in
series. Because it sounds like you are a bit confused, let me
explain: The N.C. and N.O. designation on contacts, relays and
everything else is with no force applied. No magnetic force, no
electrical force.

Installing N.C. contacts in parallel should end up with the circuit
being open when all doors/windows are closed, because the magnetic
force is applied and the contact opens. If any one (or more) door(s)
open, the contact closes.

While that makes for a poor installation, as there is no supervision
of the alarm wiring, (e-mail me and I'll explain that concept, too),
it does demonstrate that you shouldnt throw stones in a glass house.

Campbell. It's just the trash-talking dolts and incompetent, uncaring
"professionals" who get no respect from me.

Well you certainly made a case for yourself.

 

[G. Morgan]

alt.security.alarms

While that makes for a poor installation, as there is no supervision
of the alarm wiring, (e-mail me and I'll explain that concept, too),
it does demonstrate that you shouldnt throw stones in a glass house.

Looks like Fat-Ass made another friend!

You're exactly right. N.O. contacts are shorted when a magnet is
applied. Also referred to as "closed loop" contacts for the
electronic unlearned.


-Graham

Remove the 'snails' from my email

 

[Mersereau]

Looks like Fat-Ass made another friend!

It doesn't take too much reading to see that he was the kid who always
got beat up on the school playground.

 

[Mike]

N.C. contacts are wired in parallel and N.O.

contacts are wired in series.

There are two methods of describing magnetic contacts. Sentrol (probably
the most popular brand of magnetic contacts) refers to those which are
closed when the magnet is present as N.C. These must be wired in series.
You may find it instructional to look at the marking on the side of one of
Sentrol's switches some time. If you can't buy one from an alarm installer,
send me your e-mail address and I'll ship one to you so that you can learn
about this.

A few firms call the same type of contact N.O. so your confusion is
understandable.

Because it sounds like you are a bit confused,
let me explain: The N.C. and N.O. designation
on contacts, relays and everything else is with
no force applied

True for relays, but with magnetic sensors the designation varies even among
industry giants. Nevertheless, if you are in the trade you knew exactly
what I meant because that is the most common way of designating mag
contacts.

(e-mail me and I'll explain that concept, too)

I doubt you can explain any concepts which I haven't already taught to
thousands of clients and numerous installers over the 27+ years I've been in
the trade, friend.

 

[Mersereau]

Wow, funny how this post, which was from "Mike" comes from the same
IP address as Robert Bass.

There are two methods of describing magnetic contacts. Sentrol (probably
the most popular brand of magnetic contacts) refers to those which are
closed when the magnet is present as N.C.

See I can teach you a lot. First, Sentrol is now GE Interlogix.
Second, they label their contacts "closed loops, N.O."

These must be wired in series.
You may find it instructional to look at the marking on the side of one of
Sentrol's switches some time. If you can't buy one from an alarm installer,
send me your e-mail address and I'll ship one to you so that you can learn
about this.

Again, I have to teach you the simple things in life, huh? You cant
send a contact to my email address

A few firms call the same type of contact N.O. so your confusion is
understandable.

N.O. is a designation with no force applied. Try to remember this,
as its very important in this business. You know, you sound a lot
like Dan Rather. "I don't care WHAT the facts are, this is the way it
is" It's called denial. You need some help here, dude.

True for relays, but with magnetic sensors the designation varies even among
industry giants. Nevertheless, if you are in the trade you knew exactly
what I meant because that is the most common way of designating mag
contacts.

So I guess when you say something and proven wrong, and then say "you
knew what I *meant*"? Very handy for somebody who backpedals.

N.O. and N.C. are designations with no force applied. Relays,
contacts, wateflow switches, etc, etc.
Look here: http://www.ceejay.com/alep02.html

I doubt you can explain any concepts which I haven't already taught to
thousands of clients and numerous installers over the 27+ years I've been in
the trade, friend.

That's right, pretend you have friends. As for years in the trade,
I'll have 29 in December, so what's your point? And what are you
teaching them anyway, if you cant grasp the basic concept of N.O and
N.C.?

Now lets see, Mike Sabodish always puts tags on his post, and isnt
afraid to speak his mind on anything. Mike also has 33 years in the
trade. Why are you signing your posts "Mike" using his email address,
Robert? I heard that about you, that you impersonate Mike and sign
his name in others guestbooks. Oh... that's right, it was a *joke*.
I heard you did a great backpedal there, too.