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BJT Can be Considered a CCCS in some situations

Kevin scrawled:
This current itself is an effect of an electric field, hint: V=IR.
Please provide a method of producing such a current that doesn't
ultimately depend on the use of electric field.



A superconductive loop, with one side
moving orthogonal to a magnetic field.

What if you drove an Ibe with a
wire that is moving orthogonal to a magnetic
field?

You are confusing a SOURCE of voltage
potential versus a voltage DROP. A voltage
drop across a low impedance is controlled
by the current though a high series impedance
current source.

Hint: V=IR, as in IR voltage DROP.

Hint: If you take the Ibase away,
is the Vbe there any more? No.

Jesus, i hate having to school
the pretentious, lying, wanna-bes
in the basics of electronics!

Read the books more, chump.

Slick
 
K

Kevin Aylward

Kevin scrawled:

Oh dear, a new post. Seems you're rather upset.

"Re: BJT Can be Considered a CCCS in some situations"

The circuit that a voltage controlled bipolar transistor resides in
might well be considered a CCCS, as an ad-hoc approximation.
A superconductive loop, with one side
moving orthogonal to a magnetic field.

How did this current get started?
What if you drove an Ibe with a
wire that is moving orthogonal to a magnetic
field?

What is the cause of this magnetic field? Hint: charge.
You are confusing a SOURCE of voltage
potential versus a voltage DROP. A voltage
drop across a low impedance is controlled
by the current though a high series impedance
current source.

No, you are confusing internal device physics with external circuitry.

The bipolar transister is a voltage controlled device. Period.

Suppose, we put you in women clothings, would that then mean that you
were a little girlie...err... opps.. sod it.. there goes my
argument..shucks...
Hint: V=IR, as in IR voltage DROP.

Hint: If you take the Ibase away,
is the Vbe there any more? No.

Ho hum...

F = qE.
Jesus, i hate having to school
the pretentious, lying, wanna-bes
in the basics of electronics!

Please provide a device physics derivation, from first principles, of Ie
and Ic being a direct causal function of Ib.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
J

Jim Thompson

[email protected] wrote: [snip]

How did this current get started?

Immaculate conception ?:)

[snip]
Please provide a device physics derivation, from first principles, of Ie
and Ic being a direct causal function of Ib.

Kevin Aylward

So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
M

Mac

Kevin scrawled:






A superconductive loop, with one side
moving orthogonal to a magnetic field.

What if you drove an Ibe with a
wire that is moving orthogonal to a magnetic
field?

You are confusing a SOURCE of voltage
potential versus a voltage DROP. A voltage
drop across a low impedance is controlled
by the current though a high series impedance
current source.

Hint: V=IR, as in IR voltage DROP.

Hint: If you take the Ibase away,
is the Vbe there any more? No.

Jesus, i hate having to school
the pretentious, lying, wanna-bes
in the basics of electronics!

Read the books more, chump.

Slick

The argument is over. You lost. Not because your position has no merit
but because you don't know how to argue, and instead resort to
ad-hominem attacks.

If you are just a troll, which is how you appear to me, then I suppose
you will ignore what I say. But if you are trying to win arguments or
friends, you should revise your tactics and techniques.

For example, you might want to lurk long enough to figure out who knows
what they are talking about and who doesn't. If someone who knows what he
is talking about says something that seems wrong to you, don't argue, just
ask for enlightenment, instead. Maybe you will learn something.

Also, avoid name-calling and condescension, because these tactics just
make you look bad.

HTH!

--Mac
 
R

Rich Grise

[email protected] wrote: [snip]

How did this current get started?

Immaculate conception ?:)

[snip]
Please provide a device physics derivation, from first principles, of Ie
and Ic being a direct causal function of Ib.

Kevin Aylward

So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)

It's OK, Jim. Simple models for simple minds, right? ;-)

Let Kevin have his voltage control, and let's get on with our lives.
Like the PHB's favorite son said the other day, "Let him be proud."

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

Jim Thompson

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:15:02 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)

It's OK, Jim. Simple models for simple minds, right? ;-)

Let Kevin have his voltage control, and let's get on with our lives.
Like the PHB's favorite son said the other day, "Let him be proud."

Cheers!
Rich

I was pondering Kevin's stance the other day and wondered... if I
apply a voltage to C-E and let the base float, I get current flow...
wonder how come that happens ?:)

...Jim Thompson
 
C

Charles W. Johson Jr.

Jim Thompson said:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:15:02 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)

It's OK, Jim. Simple models for simple minds, right? ;-)

Let Kevin have his voltage control, and let's get on with our lives.
Like the PHB's favorite son said the other day, "Let him be proud."

Cheers!
Rich

I was pondering Kevin's stance the other day and wondered... if I
apply a voltage to C-E and let the base float, I get current flow...
wonder how come that happens ?:)

...Jim Thompson


I'd have to say because the C-E voltage causes a B-E voltage when the small
number of electrons squeeze past the valance bands.

Charles
 
J

Jim Thompson

Jim Thompson said:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:15:02 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]

So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)


It's OK, Jim. Simple models for simple minds, right? ;-)

Let Kevin have his voltage control, and let's get on with our lives.
Like the PHB's favorite son said the other day, "Let him be proud."

Cheers!
Rich

I was pondering Kevin's stance the other day and wondered... if I
apply a voltage to C-E and let the base float, I get current flow...
wonder how come that happens ?:)

I'd have to say because the C-E voltage causes a B-E voltage when the small
number of electrons squeeze past the valance bands.

Charles

Causes? How can that be ?:)

...Jim Thompson
 
Kevin said:
Oh dear, a new post. Seems you're rather upset.

"Re: BJT Can be Considered a CCCS in some situations"

The circuit that a voltage controlled bipolar transistor resides in
might well be considered a CCCS, as an ad-hoc approximation.

Wow. I guess that's the closest I'll get
to any sort of agreement from you!


How did this current get started?

Not with an electric field, but
with a magnetic field.


What is the cause of this magnetic field? Hint: charge.

Are you saying that a magnetic field is
no different from an electric field?


No, you are confusing internal device physics with external circuitry.

The bipolar transister is a voltage controlled device. Period.

Are you saying that a FET works exactly the same way
as a BJT? Wrong.


Suppose, we put you in women clothings, would that then mean that you
were a little girlie...err... opps.. sod it.. there goes my
argument..shucks...

Suppose you suck on your Mommy's penis,
do that make you a Faggot? Opps, sod it!
My argument went out the door too, shit!


Hint: V=IR, as in IR voltage DROP.

Hint: If you take the Ibase away,
is the Vbe there any more? No.


Slick
 
P

Paul Burridge

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:15:02 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

Oh, is Jim "fartknocker" Thompson still posting here? I don't believe
he's contributed anything to sum total of scientific understanding
since inventing the electron in 1911. ;-)
 
P

Paul Burridge

Also, avoid name-calling and condescension, because these tactics just
make you look bad.

Good point. Let's hope Kevin takes it on board.
 
P

Paul Burridge

Oh, is Jim "fartknocker" Thompson still posting here? I don't believe
he's contributed anything to sum total of scientific understanding
since inventing the electron in 1911. ;-)

Sorry, I did of course mean 1897. ;-)
 
C

Charles W. Johson Jr.

Jim Thompson said:
Jim Thompson said:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:15:02 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)


It's OK, Jim. Simple models for simple minds, right? ;-)

Let Kevin have his voltage control, and let's get on with our lives.
Like the PHB's favorite son said the other day, "Let him be proud."

Cheers!
Rich


I was pondering Kevin's stance the other day and wondered... if I
apply a voltage to C-E and let the base float, I get current flow...
wonder how come that happens ?:)

I'd have to say because the C-E voltage causes a B-E voltage when the
small
number of electrons squeeze past the valance bands.

Charles

Causes? How can that be ?:)

...Jim Thompson
--

The restriction of the second diode causes a smaller current from the base
to the Emitter there by increasing the charge embalance in the Base-Emitter,
I'm sure this also has something to do with the capacitance in that region.
Hence current induces voltage but voltage must first induce the current.

Charles
 
R

Rich Grise

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:15:02 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]
So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)

It's OK, Jim. Simple models for simple minds, right? ;-)

Let Kevin have his voltage control, and let's get on with our lives.
Like the PHB's favorite son said the other day, "Let him be proud."

Cheers!
Rich

I was pondering Kevin's stance the other day and wondered... if I
apply a voltage to C-E and let the base float, I get current flow...
wonder how come that happens ?:)

Well, sure, current flows, and if you exceed BVceo, you can get lots and
lots of current! ;-)

But it's not controlled. )-;

Thanks!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

Jim Thompson said:
On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:15:02 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]

So many dummies vying for Burridge's status, but not enough awards to
go around ;-)


It's OK, Jim. Simple models for simple minds, right? ;-)

Let Kevin have his voltage control, and let's get on with our lives.
Like the PHB's favorite son said the other day, "Let him be proud."

Cheers!
Rich

I was pondering Kevin's stance the other day and wondered... if I
apply a voltage to C-E and let the base float, I get current flow...
wonder how come that happens ?:)

I'd have to say because the C-E voltage causes a B-E voltage when the small
number of electrons squeeze past the valance bands.

Reminds me of the vaudeville bit: two guys at a door, "After you." "Oh,
after you, I'm sure." This goes back and forth until the audience gets
bored, and then they both go, "OK" and get stuck.

Cheers!
Rich
 
K

Kevin Aylward

I cant see the orginal post, so I have posted here.

Wow. I guess that's the closest I'll get
to any sort of agreement from you!

Consider an fet opamp with a feedback resister. This *circuit* can now
be use as a voltage source controlled by a current, i.e. CCVS.

Does this connection now make the op-amp itself current controlled? Dose
the diff input now magically change its internal physics?

Not with an electric field, but
with

a magnetic field.

Oh dear.... Much to learn I see.
Are you saying that a magnetic field is
no different from an electric field?

Absolutely yes, that is what I am saying. Unfortunately you seem quite
aware of relativistic E&M. Applying the lorentz transformation to static
electric fields result in magnetism. That is, a magnetic field is no
more than an electric field viewed from a different reference frame.
There is no separate E and M field, its just the way the same object,
the electromagnetic field tensor, is measured when one is moving in some
specified way. For example, why should the fact the *observer* moving by
a line charge magically create a magnetic field?

*All* E&M effects are due to charge.
circuitry.
Are you saying that a FET works exactly the same way
as a BJT? Wrong.

And where on earth the has this ever been suggested?

It is clear that you are continually jumping the gun. It would seem that
*your* lack of knowledge interprets "the bipolar transistor is a voltage
controlled device" as "the fet works exactly the same way as a bipolar".
Maybe you need some English comprehension lessons.

You're are so deluded its unreal. You simply don't understand the level
of the dudes that you are dealing with. I suggest you do some web
searches on Relativity and its application to Maxwell's Equations.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
Kevin said:
Oh dear.... Much to learn I see.


There is ALWAYS much to learn,
for everyone, Phds included. And
ESPECIALLY YOU!

Where is the voltage source
in this example? Take away the
magnetic field, and you are just
moving a wire through space, and
no current will flow.


Absolutely yes, that is what I am saying. Unfortunately you seem quite
aware of relativistic E&M. Applying the lorentz transformation to static
electric fields result in magnetism. That is, a magnetic field is no
more than an electric field viewed from a different reference frame.
There is no separate E and M field, its just the way the same object,
the electromagnetic field tensor, is measured when one is moving in some
specified way. For example, why should the fact the *observer* moving by
a line charge magically create a magnetic field?

I would agree that E and H fields are
intrinsically related, especially considering
a propagating EM wave, with changing E and H
fields.

But a magnet is NOT the same as a
battery!!

God, you need to go back to High
School Circuits 101!



circuitry.

External circuitry defines how you
are driving the base.



And where on earth the has this ever been suggested?

It is clear that you are continually jumping the gun. It would seem that
*your* lack of knowledge interprets "the bipolar transistor is a voltage
controlled device" as "the fet works exactly the same way as a bipolar".
Maybe you need some English comprehension lessons.

Maybe you need to go back to school.

Ok, so what's the difference between the
function of the FET versus the BJT?


You're are so deluded its unreal. You simply don't understand the level
of the dudes that you are dealing with. I suggest you do some web
searches on Relativity and its application to Maxwell's Equations.

I suggest you stop comparing this
argument to the Theory of Relativity!
Absolute Fucking Rubbish Laddie!


Slick
 
J

John Larkin

Kevin scrawled:

No, base voltage is the effect. The only way to get base voltage (and
subsequent collector current) is to charge up the base capacitance,
and you have to apply current to do that. So the true *cause* of
collector current is base current!

John
 
K

Kevin Aylward

John said:
No, base voltage is the effect.
Ahmmm...

The only way to get base voltage (and
subsequent collector current) is to charge up the base capacitance,
and you have to apply current to do that. So the true *cause* of
collector current is base current!

Yes, a good attempt, and can lead to a more basic principle of what
ultimately causes all motion.

*All* electric and magnetic effects are the result of charge. Charge is
effectively equivalent to voltage. To produce the above current requires
a voltage (charge). It doest require such a charge producing voltage to
be in motion. Actually, in principle it does, due to conservation of
momentum, however, the motion of the source charge causing motion of
other charges can tend to as small a value as required. The real point
here is that at a conventional level of understanding, a static charge
produces relative motion of other charges.

This actually leads to the hint I give in another post as to why in a
different, or more deeper context, we might well claim that all motion
is caused by other motion.

Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
K

Kevin Aylward

There is ALWAYS much to learn,
for everyone, Phds included. And
ESPECIALLY YOU!

Certainly, but there is nothing that you can teach me.
Where is the voltage source
in this example?
Charge.

Take away the
magnetic field, and you are just
moving a wire through space, and
no current will flow.

You simply don't understand. Seriously, I am not trying to insult, I am
telling you that you are truly out of your depth with advanced E&M. You
clearly don't have a degree in an E&M related subject, so what makes you
think that you actually understand E&M? As I stated, all magnetic fields
are due to charge. Period.

A magnetic field is simply charge viewed from a different frame of
reference.

This is obviously beyond your existing knowledge. Special Relativity
tells us how the same object appears in different reference frames.
Applying special relativity to electric fields result in magnetic
fields.
I would agree that E and H fields are
intrinsically related, especially considering
a propagating EM wave, with changing E and H
fields.

This statement tells me immediately tat you simply don't have the
background to understand the relevance of what I am saying. You are
obviously completely ignorant of standard results regarding Relativity
and Maxwell's Equations, to wit, magnetic effects are derivable from
electric effects simply by the application of S.R. This is much deeper
than you are aware of.
But a magnet is NOT the same as a
battery!!

In essence it is. Sure, our measurements of a battery and a magnet are
different, but the reason for this is only because of our relative
motion with respect to the charges that cause the electric field and the
magnetic field.
God, you need to go back to High
School Circuits 101!

No. You need to know when you are are being instructed by those with
more advanced knowledge.

You are clely unacquainted with the true nature, as currently
understood, of Electromagnetism.
External circuitry defines how you
are driving the base.

And your point would be?
Maybe you need to go back to school.

Ho humm...
Ok, so what's the difference between the
function of the FET versus the BJT?

This question is meaningless. FETs and BJTs can both be used for the
same function.
I suggest you stop comparing this
argument to the Theory of Relativity!
Absolute Fucking Rubbish Laddie!

I am not comparing to Special Relativity, I am telling you that special
relativity tells us that that magnetic fields are simply electric fields
when view from a moving reference frame. Maxwell's Equations and Special
Relativity are intimately related.

Its sad, that you simply don't understand that your knowledge is only
that, say, technician level. This is all much more deeper than you can
possible comprehend with your current level of understanding.

The claim that the BJT is current controlled implies that it is the
*motion* of base charge that *causes* the *motion* of charge in the
collector, rather then just the applied voltage itself. Since we can all
agree that the BJT is not magnetically operated, what exact *mechanism*
do you claim for the *motion* of collector charge to be causally related
to base charge *motion*?

The reality is that collector charge motion is not the result of base
charge *motion*, but simply the fact that applying a voltage at the base
emitter causes charge to move from the emitter. It is *not* *motion* of
base charge that instigate the motion of charge from the emitter. Any
charge in the emitter will automatically move when subject to an
electric field. Since motion of base charge is not required to cause
motion of the emitter charge, the transistor cannot be (charge) motion
controlled, i.e. base current controlled.

However... at a *much* deeper level of understanding one might well
indeed claim that it is motion that causes all other motion, but it is
not in the same context of conventional explanations that we are using
here.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.
 
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