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best schematic capture/board editor program to learn for professional world?

  • Thread starter Michael J. Noone
  • Start date
M

Michael J. Noone

Hi - so recently talking with someone I mentioned that I use Cadsoft's
Eagle for schematic capture and board design. They were quite
surprised, and said that Eagle is not used hardly at all in the
professional world, and employers would much prefer to see a different
program listed on my resume (as I will soon be applying for jobs, being
a 3rd year EE). He specifically suggested orcad and pcad. I just
thought it'd be best to get a second opinion, though I expect he knows
what he's talking about. What do you all think? Thanks,

-M. Noone
 
C

Charlie Edmondson

Michael said:
Hi - so recently talking with someone I mentioned that I use Cadsoft's
Eagle for schematic capture and board design. They were quite
surprised, and said that Eagle is not used hardly at all in the
professional world, and employers would much prefer to see a different
program listed on my resume (as I will soon be applying for jobs, being
a 3rd year EE). He specifically suggested orcad and pcad. I just
thought it'd be best to get a second opinion, though I expect he knows
what he's talking about. What do you all think? Thanks,

-M. Noone
Depends on where and what you are doing.

Orcad is pretty standard in medium-large businesses. Protel has a lot
of use in small businesses. Use Cadence Concept if you have a
masochistic tendency and want to work for big companies...

Charlie
 
J

Jim Thompson

Depends on where and what you are doing.

Orcad is pretty standard in medium-large businesses. Protel has a lot
of use in small businesses. Use Cadence Concept if you have a
masochistic tendency and want to work for big companies...

Charlie

Sno-o-o-o-ort!

Cadence products and PAIN do seem to go hand-in-hand ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
If you can use one of the programs you can learn to use all of them,
though with the less user-friendly ones you forget stuff if you stop
using it for a couple of weeks.

I'm sure Charlie Edmondson is right - Orcad and Protel probably
cameprobably name more customers than anybody else, while Cadence might
have more seats.

Check out sci.electronics.cad for a better informed opinion.

There are quite a few other programs out there - I've used Metheus
(probably long extinct), several flavours of Orcad, and Ultiboard, and
one mob that I worked for used the PADS program. Bartels AutoEngineer
has its fans ...

I like gEDA myself. It's Linux/GNU software, and if you don't like what
it does, you can dive into the source code and improve it. Not that I
can - in my programing days I was a master of Fortran 4, and I've yet
to make the switch to C and Python.

http://www.geda.seul.org/
 
T

Tim Wescott

Michael said:
Hi - so recently talking with someone I mentioned that I use Cadsoft's
Eagle for schematic capture and board design. They were quite
surprised, and said that Eagle is not used hardly at all in the
professional world, and employers would much prefer to see a different
program listed on my resume (as I will soon be applying for jobs, being
a 3rd year EE). He specifically suggested orcad and pcad. I just
thought it'd be best to get a second opinion, though I expect he knows
what he's talking about. What do you all think? Thanks,

-M. Noone
Someone who only cares about what schematic capture program you're used
to either wants a draftsman or they don't know what they're talking
about. I would take a resume listing for _any_ second schematic capture
program to mean that you are ready to learn whatever one comes your way.
 
J

Joerg

Hello Tim,
Someone who only cares about what schematic capture program you're used
to either wants a draftsman or they don't know what they're talking
about. I would take a resume listing for _any_ second schematic capture
program to mean that you are ready to learn whatever one comes your way.
Amen!

Eagle is fine as far as I am concerned. Ok, maybe I am biased because I
switched from OrCad to Eagle.

Regards, Joerg
 
M

maxfoo

Hi - so recently talking with someone I mentioned that I use Cadsoft's
Eagle for schematic capture and board design. They were quite
surprised, and said that Eagle is not used hardly at all in the
professional world, and employers would much prefer to see a different
program listed on my resume (as I will soon be applying for jobs, being
a 3rd year EE). He specifically suggested orcad and pcad. I just
thought it'd be best to get a second opinion, though I expect he knows
what he's talking about. What do you all think? Thanks,

-M. Noone

It's the end product you designed that matters, not the tools used...
Sheesh, do you also mention on your resume the brand soldering iron used to
solder the parts to the pcb?
 
John said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Joerg
<[email protected]>) about 'best schematic
capture/board editor program to learn for professional world?', on Sat,
10 Sep 2005:


Absolutely not. It's the chief bane of highly creative designers. They
are never ready to release the product for production, because in a few
days/weeks/month/years they will have a product that is 1000% better,
half the price and will convert Australian audio engineers into human
beings.(;-)

The first two promises can be difficult to deliver, but degrading
Australian audio engineers to merely human only requires brain surgery
or a cask of beer. I can understand why a U.K. audio engineer might
want to do this, but it would probably get you into trouble with UN mob
who look after the world's cultural heritage.
 
Oz bench techs are fine if you treat them a human beings. English
engineers on secondment in Australia mostly seemed to think that they
have to treat them in the same way they treated the erks in the U.K. -
no "please", no "thank you", and no explanation of what you were asking
them to do, or where it fitted in the whole project.

English bench techs respond well if you talk to them as if they wee
human. I don't know if this approach would work if delivered in an
upper- or middle-class English accent - I've got no empirical evidence
on which to base and opinion.
 
M

Michael J. Noone

Was there anything in particular that drove you to make this switch?
Just curious as I'm currently pondering making a switch in the other
direction...
 
R

RST Engineering \(jw\)

English bench techs respond well if you talk to them as if they wee
human.


I'm not sure what mental capacity has to do with weeing human, but I think
we all wee human.

{;-)


Jim
 
J

Joerg

Hello Michael,
Was there anything in particular that drove you to make this switch?
Just curious as I'm currently pondering making a switch in the other
direction...

The answer can be summed up in one single ASCII character: $

My first OrCad license cost $499 IIRC. Just for schematic because I
don't do layouts myself. Latest I heard it's now above $1500. At Cadsoft
you get the whole enchilada (schematic, layout and autorouter) for that
money. I also like the support groups for Eagle where you receive
answers almost immediately. Staff participates in the groups which
unfortunately is very unusual in today's business world.

There are a few downsides: Hardly anyone on the west coast uses Eagle or
even knows it exists. Cadsoft utterly lacks advertising out here. So the
schematic often has to be re-drawn by hand before layout. Then Eagle has
no hierarchical schematic structure. That is a serious shortcoming but
heck, you can't have it all.

Regards, Joerg
 
J

Jesse Lackey

Actually I disagree, clearly employers prefer to hire engineers familiar
with the tools already used in-house. I have yet to see Eagle listed in
a job description. This is a valid question / consideration. However,
familiarity with any EDA system is better than none, and as far as I
know the $multi-thousand tools don't offer anything beyond 30-day eval
versions.

Obviously something smartly designed in Eagle - which you learned on
your own - will be more impressive than someone who knows
(orcad,pcad,...) from a school class and didn't do much real work with
it. IMHO anyway. In the long run (and a full-time salaried hire counts
as this) smart go-getter people are the best employees to have.

J
 
S

samIam

I like gEDA myself. It's Linux/GNU software, and if you don't like what
it does, you can dive into the source code and improve it. Not that I
can - in my programing days I was a master of Fortran 4, and I've yet
to make the switch to C and Python.

I second that!
Although I still find myself using ORCAD to draw schematics and gEDA's
"PCB" program (open source) to do layout

But then again its hobby not commercial design so ...
 
J

Joel Kolstad

Jesse Lackey said:
Obviously something smartly designed in Eagle - which you learned on
your own - will be more impressive than someone who knows
(orcad,pcad,...) from a school class and didn't do much real work with
it. IMHO anyway.

Unless you're hiring someone specifically as a PCB layout guy (or schematic
capture guy, although in my experience it's very uncommon for anyone other
than the design engineer to perform schematic capture anymore), which
particular EDA tool some guy I'm considering hiring has used in the past is
pretty close to the bottom of my list of things I care about (somewhere in the
same ballpark of how well they dress :) ). EDA software is just a tool, and
if it's clear you've already mastered one brand of hammer, it stands to reason
you can readily do so with any other hammer as well. On resumes I've
provided, I've always listed two sets of 'tools' experience I have -- one set
is software I feel I have well-above-average to expert competency in, whereas
the other set is stuff that, yeah, I've used it, but I'm no better than
average (if that) due to a lack of experience with it. This was in direct
response to my getting resumes from people where they listed every package
they every double-clicked on regardless of their experience level with it, and
my dismay at discovering this 5 minutes into an interview process. (I liked
the guy who said he had FPGA experience with "Xylinx" -- yeah, sure he did...)
In the long run (and a full-time salaried hire counts
as this) smart go-getter people are the best employees to have.

It's not particularly realistic to expect individuals to learn a full blown
commercial EDA tool on their own given that the license costs are typically
four digits if not five or even six. For instance, I've yet to meet anyone
who's learned how to use analog IC layout tools outside of a commercial or
(formal) educational setting.

In response to the original poster... OrCAD and PCAD are decent programs, but
arguably both of them are so popular these days mainly due to being around a
long time and being "good enough" -- not because, IMO, they're examples of
really, really good pieces of software (particularly OrCAD, which Cadence is
not even really actively developing anymore). Any employer who thinks that
someone having done one or two school projects with OrCAD or PCAD is somehow a
lot more qualified than someone using Eagle, is, IMO, an employer you should
be very cautious with in thinking you want to work for them -- it suggests
that they might be a little out of touch of what they really want in an
engineer (or else that the company has very undemanding projects to work on).

---Joel
 
J

Joerg

Hello Joel,
Unless you're hiring someone specifically as a PCB layout guy (or schematic
capture guy, although in my experience it's very uncommon for anyone other
than the design engineer to perform schematic capture anymore), which
particular EDA tool some guy I'm considering hiring has used in the past is
pretty close to the bottom of my list of things I care about (somewhere in the
same ballpark of how well they dress :) ). ...

Unless he or she is then using their CAD SW as a contractor. That can
sometimes lead to trouble. Just had that, several library errors
resulting in pinout errors on SOT23. IMHO there is no serious
achievement in standardization in the EDA industry.
...EDA software is just a tool, and
if it's clear you've already mastered one brand of hammer, it stands to reason
you can readily do so with any other hammer as well. ...

And then that other hammer flies off the handle :)

Fully agree.

Regards, Joerg
 
R

Rich Grise

Hello John,


Maybe you are right. I have often heard the saying and actually seen it: A
firmware designer will sometimes fill up the ROM space of a uC to well
above 95% regardless of the complexity of the task.

Isn't that one of the laws of S/W design? "Programs will expand to fill
available memory."

Cheers!
Rich
 
J

Joerg

Hello Rich,
Isn't that one of the laws of S/W design? "Programs will expand to fill
available memory."

It's sad but that's what I am seeing as well. My biz records are being
kept in databases. They are compatible with the ones I used in the late
80's. The program used to fit into about 200k of memory. Now the
software doing the very same thing eats oddles of megabytes with no
significant upsides other than some glitz. Unless I elect to fire up the
DOS program which is still happy with about 200k, way faster and the
laptop fan never comes on.

The worst though are memory leaks. Even pretty good programs sometimes
begin to bloat a little, using more memory than in the morning. Closing
and restarting fixes that. Looks like lack of control in the design process.

Regards, Joerg
 
R

Rich Grise

Hello Rich,


It's sad but that's what I am seeing as well. My biz records are being
kept in databases. They are compatible with the ones I used in the late
80's. The program used to fit into about 200k of memory. Now the software
doing the very same thing eats oddles of megabytes with no significant
upsides other than some glitz. Unless I elect to fire up the DOS program
which is still happy with about 200k, way faster and the laptop fan never
comes on.

The worst though are memory leaks. Even pretty good programs sometimes
begin to bloat a little, using more memory than in the morning. Closing
and restarting fixes that. Looks like lack of control in the design
process.

Exactly. I've been studying "Thinking in C++", in an attempt to learn
something, and the guy practically harps on memory leaks. "Watch out
for this bug, because it will give you a memory leak..."

I had always kind of thought that the OS was responsible for allocating
memory - what's the mechanism of a memory leak? Is it that the app
will request memory from the OS and not return it? In other words,
will the OS free all of the memory that the crappy app forgot to
release, or is it gone until you reboot?

Thanks,
Rich
 
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