Battery switches, alternators and regulators?

[Glenn Ashmore]

Working on installing the regulator and battery switches for Rutu. The
complicating factor is that I have a BIG Leece-Neville charging the house
bank and the stock Yanmar alternator charging the starter battery. There
are two battery switches. A straight on/off at the house bank and a
1/2/Both at the engine.

The 1/2/Both switch has a field disconnect feature to prevent damage if it
is operated with the alternator running but in the normal arrangement
switching the hot side it only works for one alternator. The Leece-Neville
is externally regulated but the stock alternator in internally regulated.
I am thinking that by switching the field ground rather than the hot side I
could get it to work for both. The LN is not a problem because I know how
it is wired but I can't figure out how the stock Yanmar field is grounded.
The Yanmar installation manual doesn't mention the alternator wiring.

Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator out to
a switch?

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

 

[Larry]

Is there a way to bring the field ground on a stock Yanmar alternator
out to a switch?

Nope....It's grounded to the case of the alternator. Sorry....

BTW, if you switch off the alternator's DC connection it may NOT turn off
the alternator, which may run on its own starting magnetism, anyway.

Lionheart has two 1-2-BOTH switches. The left switch switches the two
big L-16 bank house batteries, but does NOT switch the house 180A
alternator, which is separately connected directly to the batteries by a
huge diode isolator so the alternator cannot be connected to the house
(and of course a zillion dollars in electronics) without being connected
to the batteries.

The second switch is the battery switch for the Perkins 4-108 starter.
Position 2 connects the Perkins starter to its independent starting
battery. Position 1 has a very short jumper that connects the house
battery switch common to the starting switch position 1, so I can start
the engine off either house battery bank...or both house battery
banks...or the normally-connected starting battery...or everything-all-
connected-in-parallel-if-we-have-to....

The starting system's little 80A alternator is connected directly to the
starting battery, but should the house monster alternator fail, flipping
the battery switches to everything-all-connected-in-parallel-if-we-have-
to will charge all the banks from the 80A starting alternator, anyways.
Just set both battery switches to "BOTH" and it'll all charge
together....redundantly...(c;

Battery switches are located on the lip of the engine compartment cover
in the center cockpit of the Amel Sharki ketch, keeping all these heavy
cables really short. Power-R-Us....

 

[Mark Holden]

Hi Glen;
Of course if you add a relay you can switch just about anything. Yo
could open the yanmar and redirect either of the field wires throug
the relay. Warranties are for wusses anyway.
I would connect both alternators directly to their battery / batter
banks. I realize most authorities don’t like that. So;
Presumably if your start battery is switched off, the engine can’t b
started and your Yanmar is therefore safe without field coi
intervention.
The big alternator is more of a problem; being [I presume] batter
sensed, if it’s run while disconnected from the battery it will destro
itself.
I just had a rotor melt down from that myself... luckily where I a
right now I could get it rewound [right on spec too] for $15.
Why not switch them the other way; Yanmar on the simple switch [sinc
it won’t start when off] and use the clever switch with field cutout o
the house side where you can set it up to protect the Leece-Nevile.
If connected to “Both”, your house battery bank will still start th
engine.
Anyway, just wanted to say to be sure you wire you alternators so the
can’t power up when disconnected.
Regards, Mark Holden


My adjustable alternator regulator
www.amsterdamhouseboats.nl\voltage_regulator.ht

 

[Glenn Ashmore]

While I will go along with what that site says about diodes, the article on
charge controllers lost credibility with me very quickly. First of all
modern stock alternators are not set at 14.4V as he contends. My brother's
new gas guzzling SUV is set at 13.8V as is my wife's 2006 Honda. He also
contends that modern batteries do not require 3 stage regulators for the
most efficient charging. Virtually every deep cycle battery maker
recommends 3 stage charging.

Regardless diodes would not apply to my situation running separate systems
for house and start banks. The two systems are isolated except for the
ground and the 1/2/both switch which will only be used for emergency starts.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

 

[Larry]

Regardless diodes would not apply to my situation running separate
systems for house and start banks. The two systems are isolated
except for the ground and the 1/2/both switch which will only be used
for emergency starts.

Doesn't matter. If you have two alternators pulling one battery bank, one
of the alternators is going to inevitably be set higher than the other in
the regulator. The one set lower will simply shut down when the one set
higher pulls the load voltage above the setting of the one set lower. It
doesn't hurt them at all. What it WILL do is to increase the available
load current you can get work out of. As the workload current maxes out
the one set higher, the voltage will drop below the regulator voltage of
the one set lower and it will add its available current capacity to the one
set higher's while the heavy load persists, rather than the difference
between what the load is pull and the one set higher's max current capacity
being provided by the battery banks, themselves....

The one set higher, of course, is the workhorse alternator. As long as its
load capacity is not exceeded, the one set lower will never come on unless
the battery bank is discharged....

Paralleling independently-regulated alternators just overcharges the hell
out of the batteries until the voltage comes up, which will come up
quickly. Works great....

 

[Larry]

He also
contends that modern batteries do not require 3 stage regulators for the
most efficient charging. Virtually every deep cycle battery maker
recommends 3 stage charging.

He's correct. No car or truck on the street has some $4000 supercharger
computerized charging system sold to affluent yachties at amazing profits.
They all seem to function just fine for years and years. The ordinary
Interstate battery in my 1973 Mercedes 220D diesel car is 6 years old and
has spent its whole life being charged by an alternator with an old-
fashioned relay/mechanical regulator that's bolted to the sidewall of the
engine compartment. Its gravity hovers around 1.255 to 1.265, a full
charge, on my hydrometer.

I love the sales buzzwords "modern batteries", signifying some kind of
chemical magic from the last couple of years. That's all bullshit. The
only major changes in lead-acid batteries since cars had wooden wheels is
when we replaced the antimony holding up the plates that made them gas
hydrogen from their electrolytes like hell to alloys that don't. Oh, and
we learned how to jelly the electrolyte and roll up the plates like a
simple capacitor in a tube. They're still slowly-charging, stupidly-simple
lead-acid batteries that can be made really cheaply and do the job.

The old 220D cranks just fine without a computer charging its battery...(c;

 

[Al Thomason]

Glenn,

I too have two alternators, stock that I use for the starter battery
and a large LN for the house battery. But in my configuration I do
not use any 1/2/all switches on the alternator feeds. Just keep it
simple: The stock alt goes to the Starter battery, and the LN goes to
the house battery...

Where I do use master switches is in the feeds to the sub-pannels.

On the House DC Sub Pannel I have an on/off switch to the House
battery. This is a master disconnect and does tie into the LN field
ckt. For the Nav sub DC pannel I use an A/B/All switch so I can
select to feed it from the house battery (Normal), or put it over to
the Starter battery (backup). Wired this way it also give me a way to
connect the two systems together if needed (very unusual situation).
I do not have a cut-off switch on the starter batter.

I did it this way to keep the two systems 100% Issolated and simple.
Buy putting the A/B switch on the DC Sub Pannel feeds (instead of the
alternator outputs) I can gain reliability without making the
charging system complex.

-al-

 

[Glenn Ashmore]

The problem I have with your set up is that I have a surveyor coming by
every 6 months during construction and reporting back to my insurance
company. Everything has to conform to ABYC standards and 11.7.1.2.1. says
I have to have a way to isolate the house bank from everything else or I
will get a nasty letter.

I have found two solutions though. The stock Hitachi/Yanmar alternator is
an N type and the negative side of the regulator comes out of the case on a
terminal that is tied to the ground terminal. The other is that banks under
800 CCA don't have to be isolated.

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

 

[Al Thomason]

I think that would not be a problem. On my House Bank, I have a
master isolation switch. The LN alternator is connected to the
'downward' side of this switch. So, opening the Master switch causes
all to be disconnected from the house battery, including the LN
alternator. (All except the bilge pumps, they are wired directly to
the House Battery with separate wiring)

On the Starter Battery I have no switch on it, so no need to worry
about the field on the stock motor alt. 11.7.1.2.1. calls out that
no isolation switch is needed for batteries under 800 CCA. Note also
that exception 2B allows 'battery Charging equipment' to be directly
connected to the batteries, even those over 800 CCA. Note also that
exception 2B allows for direct connect of the bilge pumps. So, all
is OK with ABYC specs.

I do feed the LN field through the House Battery master switch. That
is easy as I have converted it to an external regulator (as you said
you did also). But in practice I never touch this master switch. It
truly is there only for emergency and maintenance use. When leaving
the boat I turn things off by the Sub Panels.


BTW: These LN alternators are tuff things... Real 'large frame', can
get them for around $250 or so on eBay, and my alt puts out 145A at
idle (Hot and measured). And if you need more current, just run two
in parallel

Also, have really enjoyed watching your progress and your web site.

-al-

 

[Al Thomason]

Err,

Brain Fade.. Starter battery is larger then 800 CCA (it is an 8D),
but exception 2C allows the motor alternator to be directly connected.
There is nothing else connected to the starter batter (only motor
operation and starter).

I do feed one side of the A/B/All 'nav' sub-pannel to the starter
battery, but that is through a switch so again am OK there as well.

-al-

 

[Larry]

I think that would not be a problem. On my House Bank, I have a
master isolation switch. The LN alternator is connected to the
'downward' side of this switch. So, opening the Master switch causes
all to be disconnected from the house battery, including the LN
alternator. (All except the bilge pumps, they are wired directly to
the House Battery with separate wiring)

Even moving the master switch, inadvertently or not, will guarantee the
running alternator will blow every piece of electronics running on the now-
open-circuited alternator(s) permanently connected to them. Even a little
terminal corrosion on the switch will make it happen, bigtime....

Why don't people connect the alternator through a suitable fuse, directly
to the battery, and switch only the field or external regulator power with
the engine switch, like it's supposed to be, so this doesn't happen and
cause some very expensive service???.... If the alternator shorts a diode,
it blows the alternator fuse...no harm done.

How many of you connected to the master switch like this have an alternator
fused at 50% over its generating capacity?....Fess up!

 

[Matt Colie]

Even moving the master switch, inadvertently or not, will guarantee the
running alternator will blow every piece of electronics running on the now-
open-circuited alternator(s) permanently connected to them. Even a little
terminal corrosion on the switch will make it happen, bigtime....

Why don't people connect the alternator through a suitable fuse, directly
to the battery, and switch only the field or external regulator power with
the engine switch, like it's supposed to be, so this doesn't happen and
cause some very expensive service???.... If the alternator shorts a diode,
it blows the alternator fuse...no harm done.

How many of you connected to the master switch like this have an alternator
fused at 50% over its generating capacity?....Fess up!

Larry,
Some of the systems that I have proposed or installed, I have done just
that. For a 100+ amp alternator, I usually put in a 200 amp fuse. I do
it for just exactly the reason mentioned.
Matt Colie

 

[krj]

i don't know what use a charge controller is if you have a voltage
regulator, such as on an alternator. a charge controller, at least in
a solar panel install, is just there to regulate voltage and current,
because solar panels can put out upwards to 16 to 17 volts on a cool
clear day and that would be high enough to damage your batteries over
time. so with solar panels the charge controller's job is to make the
solar panel work like an alternator, supplying the voltage and amps
needed to properly recharge the batteries.

Maybe you need to read regulators 101.
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=caseyd0081
krj

 

[Larry]

On a boat however, the house bank routinely gets deeply discharged,
often to as low as 50% of capacity. To replace that amount of power
as quickly as possible, 3 stage charging is required.

I'll take the bait.....

In the yard out front is a Chevy-based diesel stepvan, made for you
taxpayers by Union City Body in TN for the Air Force. When I bought it,
I added two L-16H deep cycle beasts in a custom-made box in the driver's
footwell, a useless space. The van is my electronics shop and has two
500W Tripplite inverters to run lighting, equipment, etc. It also has a
60A supply to two 400W bridged audio power amps I use in the DJ Biz where
there is no available AC and we don't want the Honda 3000i genset noise.

It gets deep cycled, regularly, and has for a couple of years. They're
regular golf cart batteries, not some exotic $800 AGM. There are two
AGMs in parallel the government installed to crank the 6.2L GM diesel V-8
up under the hood. One of them melted when the guaze shorted out and
Batteries Plus replaced it with another one that didn't cost me much.

Between the house batteries and the starting batteries is a 250A Guest
ON-OFF switch that simply parallels all the battery banks for charging
off the ordinary, everyday, 80A, Delco, internally-regulated alternator
on the GM diesel beast.

IF I have AC power, I charge them all, again in parallel, with the
unregulated, simple 40A AC charger Cap'n Geoffrey gave me off the Amel
when he installed an automatic Guest charger to replace it. The Amel
charger is simply a tapped transformer, a 50A rectifier with a switch
that selects "Low" "Medium or "High" on 115 or 230VAC, changing the tap
arrangement for the various countries and guestimated loads. It has 3
stage charging! You start on HIGH then downshift, if you think about it,
to MEDIUM or LOW when the gravity comes up...(c; You wouldn't want it,
like he didn't, because it has no shutoff when the cells are charged.

Those silly L-16Hs have just wonderful gravity readings and can run the
whole DJ station, computers/monitors/preamps/processors/big power amps
for just hours and hours......and have for years.

And I don't have a $4000 charger to keep them that way. What nonsense.

 

[Larry]

sailnet.com

From people who sold (past tense) expensive regulators and chargers....(c;

 

[krj]

krj wrote:
[snip]

Maybe you need to read regulators 101.
http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=caseyd0081
krj

that article is dumb. it sounds alarmist, like suddenly the world of
batteries and voltage regulation has ran into a new problem that needs
to be solved by 3 way chargers and PWM. they are making up a problem
so that they can solve it. it reminds me of acid reflux disease ...
something we used to call being a pig and eating too damn much then
getting indigestion all the time. but this new acid reflux disease
sure sells a lot of purple pills.

simple fact is, batteries have been charging a long time without these
battery chargers. period. and the batteries don't go bad unless you
don't maintain them, that is, you let the electrolyte level get down on
the plates and/or leave it there for a long time, discharged. then you
get sulfate on the plates and it won't take a charge. but even that's
not the end of the world since you can hook it up to a high current
source and gas a lot of the sulfate off of the plates and "recondition"
the batteries just by making it froth up vigorously.

the article is insincere, it even has terms like "over-charging". what
is that ? i mean really! your battery is made of plates of metal
inside of an acid solution inside of a box. what exactly is getting
over-charged ? what's going to happen ? the plates are going to
suddenly stop being made out of lead ? the acid is going to suddenly
stop being acidic ? the box is going to stop being a box ? i mean
what is this "over-charging" anyway ? the worst thing that's going to
happen is that you're going to create some hydrogen gas and have to put
water in more often ... the hydrogen isn't a problem because a good
install already has good ventilation. and as far as the vigorous broth
you're making in the batteries by "over-charging" (at the extreme) ...
that's a GOOD THING! why would you want to stop that ? if you've got
power to waste, OVER-CHARGE and get rid of some of the sulfate on the
plates already. and then in the article they turn right around ..
right after talking about over-charging, and then say it's a good thing
by giving it the name "equalization"!!!! i mean come on!!!! it's the
same damn thing!!! lol. i mean what kind of snake oil is this when you
say over-charging is a bad thing because it gasses off your electrolyte
and then turn right around and say "equalization" is a good thing!!!
it's the same thing!!!! lol.

Yes, people, including me, have been charging batteries for years
without a three stage regulator. A three stage regulator just makes the
charging take less time. As for over charging, keeping the charge
voltage at a high voltage, i.e. 14.4 causes the electrolite to boil off
and require water replacement more frequently.
krj