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audio schematics for filters to isolate fundamental or harmonic tones?

J

John Popelish

Eeyore said:
A guitar string produces many notes.

....But only one fundamental at a time, and that fundamental
over a smaller range of frequencies than all 6 or 12 strings
do. This makes the problem of designing a tracking
fundamental filter much more feasible.
 
S

sycochkn

Eeyore said:
You don't know much about musical instruments do you ?

A single guitar string produces many notes.

Graham
I know what a freaking string does. For playing around you do not need to
make it that complicated. I do not think commercial application is the goal
here.

Bob
 
R

Rich Grise

Do you have something against analog filters. The filters in the book I
suggested are quite stable inexpensive and not too complicated.

A: Which note are you playing?
B: How much of its timbre do you want to filter out? How much do you
want to keep?

BTW, did you know that, for most instruments, and the human voice, you can
entirely delete the fundamental, and the sound will still be recognizable?

So, what are you trying to accomplish? Or is this homework? ;-)

Good Luck!
Rich
 
Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense.

I have a couple of applications/projects I'd like to do.

Application #1 would be pitch tracking. This could be for controlling
a tone generator circuit - ie play a low 'E' on the guitar, and you
hear a low 'E' from the tone generator. I know there are MIDI pickups
and interfaces for this, but I'm interested in working on something
from scratch and keeping it cheap/simple if at all possible. If I want
to simply control a synth with a guitar I can buy a MIDI interface &
keyboard. Also, another thing I might use pitch tracking for is to
control a color organ type device - different notes would light up
different LEDs.

Application #2 would be an effects pedal that removes the fundamental
tone of whatever note is currently being played, or in a different
setting, ONLY plays the fundamental tone of whatever note is currently
being played.
 
A: Which note are you playing?

This would be for whatever note is currently being played. One
application would be pitch tracking. Another would be an FX pedal.
B: How much of its timbre do you want to filter out? How much do you want to keep?

It would be nice if this could be variable (ie controlled by a knob)
BTW, did you know that, for most instruments, and the human voice, you can
entirely delete the fundamental, and the sound will still be recognizable?

It would be nice to control the amount that is being filtered - so you
could filter out a range around the note.
So, what are you trying to accomplish? Or is this homework? ;-)

Build cool gadgets to control tone circuits, light organs and DIY
effects pedals.

Thanks for your reply and have a good weekend
 
J

Jasen Betts

I am looking to build one or more filters that would

1. isolate an electric guitar tone's fundamental tone (ie filter out
the harmonic overtones)
2. isolate an electric guitar's harmonic overtones (ie remove the
fundamental tone)

What kind of filter(s) would I be looking for?

get one of those korg "guitars" with the nylon strings and MIDI output.
 
B

Bob Masta

Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense.

I have a couple of applications/projects I'd like to do.

Application #1 would be pitch tracking. This could be for controlling
a tone generator circuit - ie play a low 'E' on the guitar, and you
hear a low 'E' from the tone generator. I know there are MIDI pickups
and interfaces for this, but I'm interested in working on something
from scratch and keeping it cheap/simple if at all possible. If I want
to simply control a synth with a guitar I can buy a MIDI interface &
keyboard.

I'm afraid that pitch tracking of a guitar will never be cheap or
simple with analog methods. Over the years I've seen a lot of
schemes attempted (and tried a few of my own), and none of them
exactly set the world on fire. Normally, you would need to have
a good pitch tracker to control the filter cutoff to remove harmonics,
not the other way around. I recommend you try a simple
zero-crossing or threshold-type detector to get a feel for this
"non-2nd harmonic" problem. Feed the signal into a comparator
and listen to the "square" wave output (and watch it on a scope).
If everything worked as hoped, the output would have only one
zero-crossing per cycle and would be relatively easy to convert to
a DC level representing pitch. But alas, this only seems to be
true for certain portions of the note, breaking at others into a
buzz as the second harmonic confuses the detector. Since
it isn't truly twice the fundamental, you can't find a threshold
that will produce only one zero-crossing per cycle.

Also, another thing I might use pitch tracking for is to
control a color organ type device - different notes would light up
different LEDs.

You don't need pitch tracking for this... plain old static filters
will do fine, a sharp (and stable) bandpass for each note.
Application #2 would be an effects pedal that removes the fundamental
tone of whatever note is currently being played, or in a different
setting, ONLY plays the fundamental tone of whatever note is currently
being played.

Again, you'd need the output of the pitch tracker to control the
filter cutoff. Catch 22!

Believe me, many, many folks have spent many, many hours on
this problem.

Best regards,


Bob Masta

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!
 
look up chevbishef and butterworth filters i may have miss-spelled chevichef. to design filters it is not and easy task. not for a layman anyhow. for active filters need to understandop-amp. but good luck
 
Thanks for the explanation - I think I understand.
You don't need pitch tracking for this... plain old static filters
will do fine, a sharp (and stable) bandpass for each note.

Hmm. Well in that case, what would stop you from setting up such a
bandpass filter for each note and using it to trigger a tone generator
instead of an LED? This would serve the purpose of simple pitch
tracking, no? It would only be capable of tracking notes in half step
intervals (no string bends or anything) but that would probably serve
my purpose. Would that work?

Thanks again...
 
B

BobG

What does one use this for? A pitch extractor to control a 6 voice
synthesizer, one voice per string? There was a guitar synth (forgot
the brand! sorry!) with a 'hexaphonic' pickup that tried to isolate
the signal from each string, so if one played the E string on the 6th
fret, the computer didnt think you were playing the A string on the
1st fret.
 
S

sycochkn

I am looking to build one or more filters that would

1. isolate an electric guitar tone's fundamental tone (ie filter out
the harmonic overtones)
2. isolate an electric guitar's harmonic overtones (ie remove the
fundamental tone)

What kind of filter(s) would I be looking for?

Does anyone know if schematics for these devices (the simpler the
better) are available online?

Thanks...

42 fixed filters

Bob
 
C

Cornelius J Rat

Hmm. Well in that case, what would stop you from setting up such a
bandpass filter for each note and using it to trigger a tone generator
instead of an LED?

Nothing but the cost. You'll probably have to tune each filter to allow for
variations in component tolerance, which can be a bind. In the old days you
used to have to wind inductors, but these days I guess you can use gyrators
(with op-amps).
 
B

Bob Masta

Thanks for the explanation - I think I understand.


Hmm. Well in that case, what would stop you from setting up such a
bandpass filter for each note and using it to trigger a tone generator
instead of an LED? This would serve the purpose of simple pitch
tracking, no? It would only be capable of tracking notes in half step
intervals (no string bends or anything) but that would probably serve
my purpose. Would that work?

This is one of those things that sounds good at first, but when you
get down to details there are some problems (besides the cost, as
another post mentions). The main problem is that you will need
very sharp tuning to isolate each note. If you build a simple
bandpass for each note, the "passband" must be very narrow
in order to reject adjacent notes... but then it will reject the
desired note if it is not dead-on. So you need a multi-pole
bandpass that has a flatter top and still has steep slopes.
These get complex and fussy to tune.

But suppose that is not a problem. (Actually, there are
digitally tuned single-chip filters that could handle this,
where the fitler frequency is controlled by a clock. This
could be made very accurate using a crystal reference.)

Then you will discover the hidden "gotcha": The response
time of a filter is proportional to the inverse of its bandwidth,
which means there will be a lag between the time you pluck
the string and the time the peak comes out of the bandpass.

Then, if that wasn't bad enough, remember than the bandpass
output is still AC, and for a guitar most of the notes of interest
are in the 100 Hz or less range. If you are going to convert this
to a DC value you will need further smoothing after you (full-wave)
rectify it, further adding to the delay.

OK, maybe with one filter per note you don't really need to convert
to DC, just some sort of a threshold comparator. But you will have
to have some way to keep the subsequent synth oscillator going
between comparator peaks, which means a time delay on the
shut-off... probably much better than delaying the onset.

Anyway, as a rule of thumb, figure that an overall 10 msec onset
delay will probably be the upper limit of tolerability. You might be
able to tolerate more if you use the synth as a backup instrument
that echoes your leads with a slight reverb-like lag. A 10 msec
lag is roughly what you'd get from a 100 Hz passband, but the
actual passbands you need are much narrower because each
semitone is only 6% from its neighbors. So at 110 Hz you need
passbands that are only 17 Hz wide, which means a lag of
roughly 59 msec... pretty bad. And it gets worse for lower notes.

Still, despite all this gloom and doom, I strongly encourage you
to play around with this idea. Start with a simple single-note
bandpass and see what you can do. You might come up with
some clever workaround for the above problems that other
folks haven't thought of yet, or you might not... but you'll have
a fun and educational experience that will almost certainly lead
to other insights and maybe to other inventions.

Best regards,




Bob Masta

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Scope, Spectrum, Spectrogram, Signal Generator
Science with your sound card!
 
Thanks for all the advice. It does sound as though this would be a
tricky project. I may do it just for learning. Also, we could consider
the inaccuracy and delay problems to be "features" and the device
could be an interesting effect. Play a note, and you might not know
what you're going to get! (I hear the "blue box" by MXR is similarly
fun)
 
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